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oriondean

thinking about F&D beta.

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I wonder about the various lightsaber forms. They all (except maybe Shii-cho?) provide a talent that allows using an alternate characteristic when using the Lightsaber skill. Some forms also have their own unique form talents, which if I've understood correctly specifies a Lightsaber check with the alternate characteristic listed in parenthesis, rather than just Lightsaber. This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

A comment upon the lack of reflecting blaster bolts back on opponents: If I've understood the idea behind FaD correctly, the players are descendants, inheritors and so on of the Jedi tradition (and other force traditions). So, while they might know the basics of each form (and access to more advanced stuff), it sort of -to me at least- makes sense that not all the forms contain this iconic ability, while a master of a form might have, the characters in this game, by design if I'm not mistaken, are not masters, far from it. So, while I understand and share the desire for all the forms to have access to reflect, parry and the "reflect back talents" (superior? supreme? improved?) I can also understand a desire from the developers to make the forms distinct on this level also. It encourages both specialisation on one level, but also "multi-classing" on another.

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 This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0--mLjY1hg

 

Since you like videos so much, here is an actual longsword fight, they style they are using is called Fiore, that is what it looks like when actual real people fight with swords. Enjoy!  

 

Edit: As a fair accomplished sword guy I can also tell you that, one, both of these guys are good and two, the best fight in any of the Star Wars movies is Obi-Wan vs. Vader in ep IV. The footwork is amazaballs.

Edited by UncleArkie

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This all really boils down to patience, or a lack thereof, and longevity of characters in a campaign.  People aren't getting what they want fast enough and at a lower level of xp.  That's not really a design flaw, it's a matter of unfulfilled expectations.  Everything people are expressing they want to do is available in time.  If people are so hung up on how long it takes to get one Talent or another, or how long to advance a character with enough ranks in Parry/Reflect, or want to bounce blaster shots back, if the GM wants to have characters doing that, they need only award more starting xp and, voila, you character can do what you like.  It shortens the shelf life of the character and campaign I think, but if it keeps people happier so be it.  I think getting a huge bump in xp, or being able to advance characters more quickly cheapens the experience and lessens the satisfaction of accomplishment personally.

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This all really boils down to patience, or a lack thereof, and longevity of characters in a campaign.  People aren't getting what they want fast enough and at a lower level of xp.  That's not really a design flaw, it's a matter of unfulfilled expectations.  Everything people are expressing they want to do is available in time.  If people are so hung up on how long it takes to get one Talent or another, or how long to advance a character with enough ranks in Parry/Reflect, or want to bounce blaster shots back, if the GM wants to have characters doing that, they need only award more starting xp and, voila, you character can do what you like.  It shortens the shelf life of the character and campaign I think, but if it keeps people happier so be it.  I think getting a huge bump in xp, or being able to advance characters more quickly cheapens the experience and lessens the satisfaction of accomplishment personally.

 

Since I can only "like" this post once, I'll just QFE...

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

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This all really boils down to patience, or a lack thereof, and longevity of characters in a campaign.  People aren't getting what they want fast enough and at a lower level of xp.  That's not really a design flaw, it's a matter of unfulfilled expectations.  Everything people are expressing they want to do is available in time.  If people are so hung up on how long it takes to get one Talent or another, or how long to advance a character with enough ranks in Parry/Reflect, or want to bounce blaster shots back, if the GM wants to have characters doing that, they need only award more starting xp and, voila, you character can do what you like.  It shortens the shelf life of the character and campaign I think, but if it keeps people happier so be it.  I think getting a huge bump in xp, or being able to advance characters more quickly cheapens the experience and lessens the satisfaction of accomplishment personally.

Looking at my own reaction, I can't disagree there. But I have terrible luck with my campaigns cus my work keeps moving me about. 

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This all really boils down to patience...

 

It also depends on your gaming group 'luck'. Many of the campaigns we've started in various systems fall apart after fewer than a dozen sessions for one reason or another; I've not got a lot of faith in new stuff sticking around for the long haul. If I were to play my character for 3 months - earning 10-15xp/session - that's barely enough to reach the bottom of the tree (assuming some also goes into skills). Without a starting 'boost' like the Knight-level play seems to grant I'm not sure I could ever start realizing character concepts - and this assumes I'll find someone to run a game of this that I can play in :(

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

Correct. some talents do specify that they require a Lightsaber (Will) check or some other charactersitic. It makes sense that some moves require that characteristic since they are signatures moves of that particular style.

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

 

A lot of lightsaber form Talents refer to specific attributes - like Makashi Flourish and Saber Swarm (Ataru) and the wording for Makashi Technique, Ataru Technique, etc says that you may substitute X attribute for Brawn when making a check using the Lightsaber skill so it looks like the intent is that if you are mixing lightsaber form specs you won't necessarily be able to use your preferred characteristic using "signature" talents.

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

 

 

This all really boils down to patience...

 

It also depends on your gaming group 'luck'. Many of the campaigns we've started in various systems fall apart after fewer than a dozen sessions for one reason or another; I've not got a lot of faith in new stuff sticking around for the long haul. If I were to play my character for 3 months - earning 10-15xp/session - that's barely enough to reach the bottom of the tree (assuming some also goes into skills). Without a starting 'boost' like the Knight-level play seems to grant I'm not sure I could ever start realizing character concepts - and this assumes I'll find someone to run a game of this that I can play in :(

 

Again, the system can't compensate for that.  If the GM agrees this is a problem and wants to run sessions at a higher level for less time then I would say extra xp may be warranted.

Edited by 2P51

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

Correct. some talents do specify that they require a Lightsaber (Will) check or some other charactersitic. It makes sense that some moves require that characteristic since they are signatures moves of that particular style.

 

 

What is odd is that Shii-Cho talents require just a Lightsaber check, so any other attribute will work on those.

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 Since you like videos so much, here is an actual longsword fight, they style they are using is called Fiore, that is what it looks like when actual real people fight with swords. Enjoy!

Nice! I like the fan vids for their enthusiasm and playfulness, not their technique. I strongly encourage you to post cool sword related stuff that you feel might inspire or improve people's enjoyment of playing Jedi.

I think this is the best lightsaber vid on YouTube. Can anyone do better?

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This all really boils down to patience, or a lack thereof, and longevity of characters in a campaign.  People aren't getting what they want fast enough and at a lower level of xp.  That's not really a design flaw, it's a matter of unfulfilled expectations.  Everything people are expressing they want to do is available in time.  If people are so hung up on how long it takes to get one Talent or another, or how long to advance a character with enough ranks in Parry/Reflect, or want to bounce blaster shots back, if the GM wants to have characters doing that, they need only award more starting xp and, voila, you character can do what you like.  It shortens the shelf life of the character and campaign I think, but if it keeps people happier so be it.  I think getting a huge bump in xp, or being able to advance characters more quickly cheapens the experience and lessens the satisfaction of accomplishment personally.

 

So...FFG StarWars doesn't scale very well?  Why would this shorten the character or campaign viability?

 

To each their own.  And I agree that the FFG system allows GMs to tune the game to whatever ability level they'd like.

 

The "Knight Level play" option of +150XP amounts to about 7 sessions of XP (moderate XP advancement) up front.

 

If you had a game go for every week for 6 months you're talking about at least +500XP (moderate XP advancement).

 

So, how many sessions before the game becomes unwieldy?

 

I agree that enjoyment of the game and satisfaction is the most important thing but this can also depend on the core character concept you're striving for.  If your concept is the grizzled veteran who's competent in some area - say as a bounty hunter or a Jedi Knight or whatever - then you will need to grow into the character mechanically.  Mechanical growth seems more satisfying when it tracks with the character concept - if you're playing some naif fresh off the moisture farm then advancement fits but if you're concept is the grizzled veteran then slower character advancement can be frustrating but once you've reached the approximate competency of the concept then character growth is more fun.  And it's possible to have both character concepts in the same game.

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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All RPGs have a shelf life of when characters become so competent they are nigh on impossible to challenge and become not terribly interesting to play.  This is hardly the first game to experience that syndrome.  If you hand wave more xp to begin with, you bring that time on sooner.

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

Correct. some talents do specify that they require a Lightsaber (Will) check or some other charactersitic. It makes sense that some moves require that characteristic since they are signatures moves of that particular style.

 

 

What is odd is that Shii-Cho talents require just a Lightsaber check, so any other attribute will work on those.

 

Well, there are two fixes I can think of, either make all such "signature" talents a straight up normal Lightsaber check using whatever characteristic, or you could specify Brawn in the Shii-Cho talent, and that way tie the forms to the characteristics - I think I'd go for the latter. Although, as has been mentioned the Shii-Cho is the basic form isn't it? So it could, arguably, be used as part of the other forms... I'm not sure I'm keen on that rationale though. I'd prefer Brawn to be added to the Shii-Cho "signature" talent(s).

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This would, rightly so I think, mean that even if you learn various styles, to fully gain the benefits of form specific moves, like Makashi flourish (or whatever it's called), you have to use the alternate characteristic. Yes?

 

No. The talent just allows you to use the alternate characteristic if you want.

 

There are no "styles" as such. Just talents that let you do things. 

So Makashi flourish or similar talents on the other trees only says "Lightsaber check"? Not for instance Lightsaber (cunning) or (presence) or whatever characteristic Makashi lets you use instead of Brawn?

 

Correct. some talents do specify that they require a Lightsaber (Will) check or some other charactersitic. It makes sense that some moves require that characteristic since they are signatures moves of that particular style.

 

 

What is odd is that Shii-Cho talents require just a Lightsaber check, so any other attribute will work on those.

 

 

That makes sense to me since Shii-Cho is supposed to be the most basic form. I don't see this as a bug but a feature.

Edited by kaosoe

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All RPGs have a shelf life of when characters become so competent they are nigh on impossible to challenge and become not terribly interesting to play.  This is hardly the first game to experience that syndrome.  If you hand wave more xp to begin with, you bring that time on sooner.

Ok, so what is the line of demarcation for FFG?

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All RPGs have a shelf life of when characters become so competent they are nigh on impossible to challenge and become not terribly interesting to play.  This is hardly the first game to experience that syndrome.  If you hand wave more xp to begin with, you bring that time on sooner.

Ok, so what is the line of demarcation for FFG?

 

 

Level 26

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All RPGs have a shelf life of when characters become so competent they are nigh on impossible to challenge and become not terribly interesting to play.  This is hardly the first game to experience that syndrome.  If you hand wave more xp to begin with, you bring that time on sooner.

 

I can agree with this to the extent that entropy exists. As mentioned, the Knight-level play is only a month or two of moderate XP gains, but lets you start with some nifty tools right out the gate; in my mind this helps keep the campaign moving in the early stages when it is most vulnerable.

 

As to the 'cap' of player challenges - I want to mention EVE Online. It has hard caps on skills that take a certain amount of real time to advance; the higher level challenge is spreading out into more areas. Sure, if you played the same character for two years weekly you could be looking at 1k xp, which is enough to completely fill several trees; it then lets the character expand into new areas they wouldn't have wasted core development time on. As to challenges - Luke, as the Grand Master of the new Jedi Order, still goes off adventuring from time to time. However, such a character might make a better NPC at that point - perhaps retiring the original group as 'players' but leaving them as the movers and shakers in the universe. No point having the players roll diplomacy for every session of the Senate when they become Senate President - just figure what their characters would pursue and have it happen, slowly but surely.

 

And no, I don't expect the system by default to account for what is a player group concern; I'm glad it was presented as an option for 'advanced' starting - I remember several threads being raised to that exact question.

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 Since you like videos so much, here is an actual longsword fight, they style they are using is called Fiore, that is what it looks like when actual real people fight with swords. Enjoy!

Nice! I like the fan vids for their enthusiasm and playfulness, not their technique. I strongly encourage you to post cool sword related stuff that you feel might inspire or improve people's enjoyment of playing Jedi.

I think this is the best lightsaber vid on YouTube. Can anyone do better?

 

Only the one-on-one fights though.  That group fight is pretty bad.

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All RPGs have a shelf life of when characters become so competent they are nigh on impossible to challenge and become not terribly interesting to play.  This is hardly the first game to experience that syndrome.  If you hand wave more xp to begin with, you bring that time on sooner.

One solution to this would be to allow higher XP to start but to reduce the typical XP awards. This allows for front-loaded characters with the skills and talents that players really want for their concept and then slow growth/development from there. This fits with many books and movies where we see characters that are already rather experienced but don't show the rapid growth spurts we typically see with RPG characters. Some players will prefer this style while others like the one in the book better. It's a matter of taste.

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