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oriondean

thinking about F&D beta.

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I'd probably allow either Mechanics or a Force-related check to build the lightsaber, but for modifying the crystals it would definitely be a Force or Discipline check. To me, a crystal mod isn't a physical modification, but is much more changing how in-tune the user is with the crystal's energies, and allowing themselves to tap into them better.

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One could potentially view the act of modifying the weapon as the part that requires the insights of the Force in the lore.  I would still put it as Mechanics.  Changing it to Discipline seems unessesary, and disrupts some of the synergy with the Artisan spec's expertise at making sabers.

 

There is the rub.  It becomes the unprincipled exception where the rest of the game assumes that Mechanics is the skill that mods everything.

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One could potentially view the act of modifying the weapon as the part that requires the insights of the Force in the lore.  I would still put it as Mechanics.  Changing it to Discipline seems unessesary, and disrupts some of the synergy with the Artisan spec's expertise at making sabers.

 

There is the rub.  It becomes the unprincipled exception where the rest of the game assumes that Mechanics is the skill that mods everything.

 

It's also called Beta, and maybe based on what we actually see in source canon material trumps the spec design that was laid out because it's a crummy design that hasn't got anything to do with what we actually see in Star Wars.

 

Again, to each their own, but based on the source material I see kids cross legged on the floor with their eyes closed, empty hands, floating parts in the air to build a Lightsaber.  I don't see any workbench, magnifying glasses, soldering irons, tac welders, tweezers, pliers, or tools of any kind.  I'm using Discipline and the Force.

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[/seriously] I wonder if all the people that feel the lightsaber is a mystical device are also the type that have crosses ward off vampires...

 

Um, in a vampire story I certainly would. Are you talking about in real life?

In game, or other fictional material. Its just a thing that varies from source to source and I thought it made a reasonable comparison.

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[/seriously] I wonder if all the people that feel the lightsaber is a mystical device are also the type that have crosses ward off vampires...

 

Um, in a vampire story I certainly would. Are you talking about in real life?

In game, or other fictional material. Its just a thing that varies from source to source and I thought it made a reasonable comparison.

 

a cross  is a standardpart of the ampire lore. The only question I've see is to whether it's the cross itself, the faith of the holder (any holy symbol would work, including Mercy's silver lamb) or the inclination of the vampire.

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Guys, the Force is MAGIC. It's just magic.

 

Like I said, you can play it however you want to play it in your games when it comes to how to construct lightsabers.

 

But please don't pretend like it's ridiculous to talk about magic in Star Wars.

 

I'd have to agree - in my mind, it's a big part of why Star Wars is fantasy rather than true science fiction.

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Guys, the Force is MAGIC. It's just magic.

 

Like I said, you can play it however you want to play it in your games when it comes to how to construct lightsabers.

 

But please don't pretend like it's ridiculous to talk about magic in Star Wars.

Its not a matter of magic, but one of penetration. The force is magic, but are lightsabers also magic, or just a wand? How much do the Jedi use the force? Occasionally? For some things? All the time?

Its valid questions when having a convo to determine where other people stand.

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To shift topic a bit, one thing I'm very happy to see here is the wide range of creature stats in the Adversary section. Aside from Suns of Fortune, I feel like we've really been lacking in volume of wild beasts, so I'm glad to see more of those being added.

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Those are great questions, and it's also great that we don't have to arrive at a consensus, we can just each play it the way we think is appropriate.

 

In my universe, if the question of making a lightsaber were to come up, for it to be done by someone who is not Force-sensitive would be an incredibly complex thing that would probably require some quests to locations strong in the Force or something like that. They'd need to study exhaustively on ancient and forbidden lore. They'd need to gather the correct materials. They would probably need to find at least one Force-sensitive person to consult with to even have a chance. I wouldn't just let a group's Mechanic say "I'm going to make a Lightsaber" and tell them to roll an Average Mechanics check.

 

Because my personal interpretation is that lightsabers are basically magical items, they're the focus of a powerful mystical energy field and creating them or manipulating them well requires access to that energy field. Han Solo can pick up a lightsaber and cut open a tauntaun, someone powerful like Cad Bane or Riff Tamson could grab one and manage not to cut his head off, but to use it effectively over a period of time would require either an incredible amount of devotion to study and practice, or access to the Force. I'd say General Grevious would be the outlier--one reason he's remarkable is because he has focused his will so intently as to be able to use multiple lightsabers effectively. It's MAGIC, so there are a lot of unknowns about how it really works.

 

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of how they should play it, though. That's just what feels right to me.

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If you just had to follow the blue prints to build a lightsaber, then everyone in the galaxy would have one... Remember in one of the TCW episodes where the jedi younglings, with Ashoka, are attacked by Ondo... before giving in for his private fleet, he asks to see a jedi build a lightsaber, saying that such a thing is priceless.... Even with the schematics, it seems really hard to build and you have to use the force to do it...

Again, this is building the saber. Yes, I would agree that it takes Force affinity to accomplish. Hondo indeed seemed very enthused to witness the creation of Ganodi's lightsaber. But this is handled through narrative, not through a skill check.

 

But I can see either mechanics or discipline used to mod the crystals... like calibrating the energy output or the blade frequency or wavelenght... any technobable to explain it....

Totally. The only examples we have of this are in the EU, and it's always (as far as I know, and I have read a fair bit) some sort of mechanical method. Oftentimes it's secret knowledge, and perhaps sometimes one needs to been Force-sensitive to even do the mechanics work, but it's actual use of tools and mechanical ability that get the job done in the end.

FFG's method simply makes the most sense, because it's in line with our only other sources on such thing (Legends, including other RPGs).

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My favorite approach to this is the one in I, Jedi; he gets the instructions from his grandfather on how to build it, gets the parts together - it calls out certain parts being contained - and puts the whole thing together as carefully as he could. The Force came into play for the first charging - he 'bathes' it in Force energy as it charges to more perfectly align all the circuitry, components, bind it to him, and ensure that the saber would be well-made.

 

I, Jedi was the only EU novel that I ever read that I thought was worth the paper it was printed on.  

 

I think it's totally reasonable for GMs and players with FU characters to work together to figure out what works best for their campaign, like a mechanics (or other skill) roll that can be supplemented with the players force rating or something to represent the "bathing in force energy" described above.

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It also just makes a kind of storytelling sense. The lightsaber is basically a magic item, so it makes poetic sense that the only ones able to create them would be magic users.

Say what? I would expect a Jedi to make their own lightsabre because Jedi are craftspeople, traditionalists and spiritual. I would expect them to make their own lightsabre because they attribute ritual significance to it and because it's something they will be carrying with them their whole life and upon which that life depends. If something is that central to you, you're going to take the time to learn how to repair it, maintain it, understand it. Of course Jedi build them themselves. And some practitioner of a real world magic tradition will - if they have the skills - take the time to go out and find their own materials and craft their own ritual tools. The pagan who searches for just the right piece of wood to make their wand from, the enthusiast of ancient archery who learns to make their own traditional longbow. Combine this sort of devotion with the fact that the tool in the Jedi's case will actually be something that they depend on in war!

And on top of that, the jedi probably don't want the knowledge and skills to be common knowledge. They don't want people going into a local hardware store pulling lightsabre plans off a shelf and mass producing them. So they probably also have that reason to keep things in-house.

But all that said - these are reasons why the Jedi make them themselves. None of them are reasons why it requires the Force to do so, or mean that a lightsabre is a "magic item". Seriously - if Han solo took Luke's lightsabre, unscrewed the casing for a look and then screwed it back on would it suddenly not work? Okay, then what if he opened it up, saw the crystal in its holder, pulled it out had a look and then put it back in just as he found it. Still working? Okay, what if he sees a wire, thinks it looks a bit frayed and replaces it with another wire of matching conductivity? Does it suddenly stop working even though science says there's no difference at all? At what point does the "magic" suddenly appear? And if disassembling and putting it back together exactly as it was doesn't make the laws of physics change, why does assembling one from the components do so - which is after all just the second stage of the above?

This just doesn't work. Jedi make lightsabres. Lightsabres do not require Jedi.

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It also just makes a kind of storytelling sense. The lightsaber is basically a magic item, so it makes poetic sense that the only ones able to create them would be magic users.

Say what? I would expect a Jedi to make their own lightsabre because Jedi are craftspeople, traditionalists and spiritual. I would expect them to make their own lightsabre because they attribute ritual significance to it and because it's something they will be carrying with them their whole life and upon which that life depends. If something is that central to you, you're going to take the time to learn how to repair it, maintain it, understand it. Of course Jedi build them themselves. And some practitioner of a real world magic tradition will - if they have the skills - take the time to go out and find their own materials and craft their own ritual tools. The pagan who searches for just the right piece of wood to make their wand from, the enthusiast of ancient archery who learns to make their own traditional longbow. Combine this sort of devotion with the fact that the tool in the Jedi's case will actually be something that they depend on in war!

And on top of that, the jedi probably don't want the knowledge and skills to be common knowledge. They don't want people going into a local hardware store pulling lightsabre plans off a shelf and mass producing them. So they probably also have that reason to keep things in-house.

But all that said - these are reasons why the Jedi make them themselves. None of them are reasons why it requires the Force to do so, or mean that a lightsabre is a "magic item". Seriously - if Han solo took Luke's lightsabre, unscrewed the casing for a look and then screwed it back on would it suddenly not work? Okay, then what if he opened it up, saw the crystal in its holder, pulled it out had a look and then put it back in just as he found it. Still working? Okay, what if he sees a wire, thinks it looks a bit frayed and replaces it with another wire of matching conductivity? Does it suddenly stop working even though science says there's no difference at all? At what point does the "magic" suddenly appear? And if disassembling and putting it back together exactly as it was doesn't make the laws of physics change, why does assembling one from the components do so - which is after all just the second stage of the above?

This just doesn't work. Jedi make lightsabres. Lightsabres do not require Jedi.

 

 

You are of course completely free to play this way if that's what you feel is right.

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One could potentially view the act of modifying the weapon as the part that requires the insights of the Force in the lore.  I would still put it as Mechanics.  Changing it to Discipline seems unessesary, and disrupts some of the synergy with the Artisan spec's expertise at making sabers.

 

There is the rub.  It becomes the unprincipled exception where the rest of the game assumes that Mechanics is the skill that mods everything.

 

It's also called Beta, and maybe based on what we actually see in source canon material trumps the spec design that was laid out because it's a crummy design that hasn't got anything to do with what we actually see in Star Wars.

 

Again, to each their own, but based on the source material I see kids cross legged on the floor with their eyes closed, empty hands, floating parts in the air to build a Lightsaber.  I don't see any workbench, magnifying glasses, soldering irons, tac welders, tweezers, pliers, or tools of any kind.  I'm using Discipline and the Force.

 

And you're certainly welcome to, it's not at all game-breaking, considering building the saber doesn't even RAW require a check.  It can be handled however you like.

 

But!  I just want to try and make the point once more that just because the skill being used is Mechanics does NOT mean that the builder is not using the Force.  Much like how aspects of Healing involves using the Medicine skill, using the Force to accomplish something requires more than just a knowledge of the Force, but also what you're trying to accomplish.  I mean, One With The Universe uses a freaking Astrogation check, and narratively you're just meditating.

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And who's to say you need to do it the same way each time? Perhaps you have a gadgeteer/tinker who realizes he's force sensitive. Sure, give him a Mechanics check with a boost for force rating. Maybe you have a Seer who finds lightsaber parts in an Imperial trophy room - perhaps to re-energize and bind it to them, the Discipline check would be more appropriate. And say there's a muggle Soldier who wants a lightsaber for bayonet/ wall cutting duty; give him a fairly long quest to find instructions (incomplete), an old hermit who's familiar with the rest, and then gather appropriate components and take several checks to assemble them into a functional lightsaber.

 

This thread has been great for ideas - while I don't expect folks to convert each other, seeing the other approaches folks are thinking of has been quite the boon for my own plans.

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I know the EU has mostly been discarded now but I always liked the bit about Lightfoils, the one built by non-force users were considered inferior to the Lightfoils created by the Sith and to Lightsabers but non-force users were able to build them and wield them effectively.

So perhaps a method of showing this in-game could be (in regards to non-Force users), they can build Lightsabers if they have the knowledge or schematics, however, the lightsaber will have the inferior quality and they would be unable to add any modifications that are associated with the crystal. Hilt modifications (like curved, extended etc.) would be perfectly reasonable for them.

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And who's to say you need to do it the same way each time? Perhaps you have a gadgeteer/tinker who realizes he's force sensitive. Sure, give him a Mechanics check with a boost for force rating. Maybe you have a Seer who finds lightsaber parts in an Imperial trophy room - perhaps to re-energize and bind it to them, the Discipline check would be more appropriate. And say there's a muggle Soldier who wants a lightsaber for bayonet/ wall cutting duty; give him a fairly long quest to find instructions (incomplete), an old hermit who's familiar with the rest, and then gather appropriate components and take several checks to assemble them into a functional lightsaber.

 

This thread has been great for ideas - while I don't expect folks to convert each other, seeing the other approaches folks are thinking of has been quite the boon for my own plans.

I like this

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I put some lightfoils in my campaign, they were a big hit. Had them use either melee or an agility-based custom skill. Have since let our force-user who has acquired a true saber trade in his ranks in the custom skill for ranks in Lightsaber proper, now that we have a better understanding how it works.

Edited by Revanchist7

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It also just makes a kind of storytelling sense. The lightsaber is basically a magic item, so it makes poetic sense that the only ones able to create them would be magic users.

Say what? I would expect a Jedi to make their own lightsabre because Jedi are craftspeople, traditionalists and spiritual. I would expect them to make their own lightsabre because they attribute ritual significance to it and because it's something they will be carrying with them their whole life and upon which that life depends. If something is that central to you, you're going to take the time to learn how to repair it, maintain it, understand it. Of course Jedi build them themselves. And some practitioner of a real world magic tradition will - if they have the skills - take the time to go out and find their own materials and craft their own ritual tools. The pagan who searches for just the right piece of wood to make their wand from, the enthusiast of ancient archery who learns to make their own traditional longbow. Combine this sort of devotion with the fact that the tool in the Jedi's case will actually be something that they depend on in war!

And on top of that, the jedi probably don't want the knowledge and skills to be common knowledge. They don't want people going into a local hardware store pulling lightsabre plans off a shelf and mass producing them. So they probably also have that reason to keep things in-house.

But all that said - these are reasons why the Jedi make them themselves. None of them are reasons why it requires the Force to do so, or mean that a lightsabre is a "magic item". Seriously - if Han solo took Luke's lightsabre, unscrewed the casing for a look and then screwed it back on would it suddenly not work? Okay, then what if he opened it up, saw the crystal in its holder, pulled it out had a look and then put it back in just as he found it. Still working? Okay, what if he sees a wire, thinks it looks a bit frayed and replaces it with another wire of matching conductivity? Does it suddenly stop working even though science says there's no difference at all? At what point does the "magic" suddenly appear? And if disassembling and putting it back together exactly as it was doesn't make the laws of physics change, why does assembling one from the components do so - which is after all just the second stage of the above?

This just doesn't work. Jedi make lightsabres. Lightsabres do not require Jedi.

 

You are of course completely free to play this way if that's what you feel is right.

When someone says "if that's what you feel is right" it sounds very different to "you are right". In fact, people only use the extra words in order to suggest that you're wrong, but that it's okay, you're free to be wrong.

What I wrote makes sense, is supported and points out actual problems with viewing lightsabres as "magic" or that only a jedi can make one. You can of course ignore those problems if that's what you feel you'd like to do, but they remain.

Edited by knasserII

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