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oriondean

thinking about F&D beta.

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I think FFG will focus on balance and casting the net as wide as possible in regards to being inclusive in F&D. I don't see them capsizing the game at this point, plus as has been stated, there is a reason they saved F&D for last and I'm sure all this is precisely why.  To have a couple years of the system being played to have really fleshed out the details of how combat fits together and functions.

 

I would just caution anyone who is really focused on one precise aspect of that book as a go/no-go issue, you are likely setting yourself up for disappointment.  If you don't accept from a business model perspective it makes the most sense to be as inclusive as possible, try to at least accept other players all have different expectations and I'm sure FFG is trying hard to make as many happy as they can.  Having said that though, the focus is going to be Jedi I'm sure, lotsa scifi has people running around with ray guns and space ships, only Star Wars has telekinetic ninjas back flipping through the air with laser swords.

Edited by 2P51

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I want to first address these "other setting" delusions. FFG is not making a game set in the Prequels, or he Old Republic, or Legacy Era, or any other time frame. FFG is making games set during the original trilogy and the Rebellion Era. So please put your wishlists away, because FFG has done exactly nothing to make anyone believe that they are releasing a game with full fledged Jedi that are meant to be played in any timeframe. This believe is not based on facts or any amount of observation, and I wish people would stop making crap up and stop projecting their own wishes onto this game. After all, it's not like it is that hard to run FFG Star Wars in another timeframe; we don't need FFG holding our hands, telling up how to do it.

Now, as I have said before over and over again, all of this Jedi Guardian/Consular/Sentinel baggage can die in the hottest fires on the brightest stars. There are two reasons why I strongly do not believe that FFG is going in this direction, and neither one has to do with wishlisting.

First of all, that baggage comes solely from Wizards of the Coast and no where else. Accepting that baggage, investing in it, and using it means that FFG owes WotC something. It means that FFG has established their game in a lineage with WotC's, as oppose to simply establishing it in the Star Wars universe. There is no instance or mention of Jedi Guardian, Consular, or Sentinel that does not stem directly from WotC (for proof, look at pre-KotOR comics and novels, which are completely absent of this material). Furthermore, Jedi Sentinels aren't even a real thing; they were fabricated by the Knights of the Old Republic video game (which traces its lineage to WotC) as a way to further distinguish the Jedi "classes," so as to make the game more interesting. They are nothing more than a statistical mechanic and serve no storytelling purpose, nor do they have any basis or establishment in the universe. By continuing to invest in this baggage, FFG shows that they owe WotC. Rather, if FFG only draws from the original movies and pre-existing material, it owes only Lucas Films for its game line. And if you just paid a fortune for a media license, who are you more likely to get in bed with?

Second, and most importantly, FFG isn't going to invalidate their own games after continually making it so clear that they would exactly not do that. Making a Jedi career invalidates the concept of universal specializations and the prior Force User material from EoE and AoR. It means that any characters (and players) who started out from the bottom get a slap to the chops because now they actually aren't Jedi, despite that being the advancement and narrative path spelled out for them. For the players, FFG just gave them the biggest, fattest middle finger and no thanks for their show of support for the line early on. Instead of being able to develop their characters into powerful Force Users and reclaim the mantle of the Jedi, by making a Jedi career, FFG would have delivered a very clear message that every player who spend their hard earned money and game time was a chump and are now left with a broken, half-truth character.

This is the same argument regarding changing the Force rules to use the normal rolling mechanics instead of the white dice. They've already printed two games to the contrary. Changing the game now is only going to piss people off and make F&D less usable with the rest of the line.

So no. In all honesty, we are going to see much of the same. We will probably see another universal Force specialization, although we could see multiple. We will probably see a new power or two, but we could see all of them reprinted in one place. But we will probably see a whole lot of non-Force using, non-Jedi careers and specializations in the same fashion as we say in EoE and AoR. And we will probably see FFG doing their own thing instead of making derivative works based off of WotC's baggage. And when the F&D beta drops in a month or so, all this wishlisting is proven wrong, and nerd-rage screams out from the entire internet in a disturbance similar to the destruction of Alderaan, I'm probably laugh and then go back to enjoying the game, because I knew all along that it worked just fine. I don't need Force Users to be 100 times better, nor do I need a special snowflake label to explore the Jedi code.

 

That baggage comes from Knights of the Old Republic, not WOTC. It was a videogame mechanic and it worked well. WOTC just ran with it. If you wookiepedia those classifications you will find a lot of sublevels to it (Jedi Shadow, Jedi Watchman). FFG may not chose to go down that path but it is likely that they will. As they DO include things from the videogames I would not be at all suprised if they DID keep these around.

You are correct that the core setting is not KOTOR or Clone Wars or whatever had the Jedi, but CW is cannon (more so than the EU right now) and it makes sense for them to continue with what was previously established. Luke may not have built things exactly the same but Jedi (with actual power) are shown to continue to exist throughout this time period.

I highly doubt a core book titled Force and Destiny will have a lot of Non-Force using things in it. I don't understand this hatred of the Consular/Guardian/Sentinal thing. I personally really enjoy it.

One of us has the wrong idea. I am excited to find out (hopefully in a few months) who.

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Okay guys, you heard ScooterinAB. Put away those wishlists. Stop asking FFG to hold your hands. Also, you should be ashamed of yourselves for getting in bed with WotC. SHAME.

Seriously though, I highly doubt we'll see a "Guardian/Sentinel/Consular" spread in FaD. It just doesn't fit. However, I would be surprised if we weren't able to BUILD something resembling our own ideas of a Guardian/Sentinel/whatever with the options provided. FFG has done amazingly well with capturing the vast scope of Star Wars, so much so that all it takes is a little imagination to make whatever character one desires, as Scooter did point out there.

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That baggage comes from Knights of the Old Republic, not WOTC. It was a videogame mechanic and it worked well. WOTC just ran with it. If you wookiepedia those classifications you will find a lot of sublevels to it (Jedi Shadow, Jedi Watchman). FFG may not chose to go down that path but it is likely that they will. As they DO include things from the videogames I would not be at all suprised if they DID keep these around.

 

...

One of us has the wrong idea. I am excited to find out (hopefully in a few months) who.

 

 

The Knights of the Old Republic video game was based on WotC's Star Wars d20 game, and used a d20-like game engine directely derived from the tabletop game. All of the core mechanics and class names, save for Sentinel (which was created for the game to have a statistical middle ground to the spectrum extremes of Guardian and Consular) come from WotC and their d20 version of the game. You are correct in saying that one of us has the wrong idea. But unlike you, I don't revel in internet arguments and feed off of proving people wrong. We'll see what FFG does, and that will be all.

 

I do want to give a shout out to 2P51's post, as he brings up a very good point. What happens when F&D comes out? Someone is going to be wrong about what the game looks like, or rather, there will be incorrect idea of what the game would be like. Investing deeply into wishlists is only going to set someone up for disappointment. What's going to happen when the game drops and X is wrong? What happens if (the royal) you are wrong? If I'm wrong and there is a Jedi class or even multiple classes, system ramifications aside, all it means is that the path to using the Force is blindingly bright and clearly spelled out for me. It means that there are no subtle nuances with Jedi and the Force. While I'll be disappointed, it's not a game breaker for me. For those demanding a Jedi class, a free lightsaber, full backflipping Jedi, and everything turned up to 11, what happens if you get the Force as presented thus far? Are you going to be disappointed? Is it going to ruin the game for you? Or are you going to be able to continue playing the game as you have been without regret? Are you so invested to your ideas that the game will be destroyed for you, or can you take the game as presented and enjoy it? Or will you just house rule the hell out of it? Attachment leads to suffering. Everyone should keep 2P51's words in mind.

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I suspect you are going to have 6 generic careers with 3 specializations each. None of them having force ability. then several force using universal specializations. Remember it is a stand alone game and not everyone in your F&D game is going to want to play a force user. It is Return of the Jedi themed. Han, Leia, Chewie Lando etc. were not force users. 

And based on how things have worked in the last 2 core books. I don't see them changing the pattern other than having more force using specializations I also see us getting Force specialization signature abilities. 

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I suspect you are going to have 6 generic careers with 3 specializations each. None of them having force ability. then several force using universal specializations. Remember it is a stand alone game and not everyone in your F&D game is going to want to play a force user. It is Return of the Jedi themed. Han, Leia, Chewie Lando etc. were not force users. 

And based on how things have worked in the last 2 core books. I don't see them changing the pattern other than having more force using specializations I also see us getting Force specialization signature abilities. 

That would mean you have to buy a second specialization to get into the meat of the game (Force use) and that wouldn't please me at all. In a similar way, I'm not thrilled about the Recruit for AoR, especially since it appears to be a reason to drop the skills it features out of areas where they seem most fitting (Soldier lacks Discipline and Vigilance but has Medicine?).

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I suspect you are going to have 6 generic careers with 3 specializations each. None of them having force ability. then several force using universal specializations. Remember it is a stand alone game and not everyone in your F&D game is going to want to play a force user. It is Return of the Jedi themed. Han, Leia, Chewie Lando etc. were not force users. 

And based on how things have worked in the last 2 core books. I don't see them changing the pattern other than having more force using specializations I also see us getting Force specialization signature abilities. 

That would mean you have to buy a second specialization to get into the meat of the game (Force use) and that wouldn't please me at all. In a similar way, I'm not thrilled about the Recruit for AoR, especially since it appears to be a reason to drop the skills it features out of areas where they seem most fitting (Soldier lacks Discipline and Vigilance but has Medicine?).

 

And we have seen how FFG handles you not having a skill like discipline. 5 point talent adding it to you list.  And you better brace your self. Because second specilization is going to be how it works. It is most  flexible and keeps players on par with each other. 

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I suspect you are going to have 6 generic careers with 3 specializations each. None of them having force ability. then several force using universal specializations. Remember it is a stand alone game and not everyone in your F&D game is going to want to play a force user. It is Return of the Jedi themed. Han, Leia, Chewie Lando etc. were not force users. 

And based on how things have worked in the last 2 core books. I don't see them changing the pattern other than having more force using specializations I also see us getting Force specialization signature abilities. 

That would mean you have to buy a second specialization to get into the meat of the game (Force use) and that wouldn't please me at all. In a similar way, I'm not thrilled about the Recruit for AoR, especially since it appears to be a reason to drop the skills it features out of areas where they seem most fitting (Soldier lacks Discipline and Vigilance but has Medicine?).

 

And we have seen how FFG handles you not having a skill like discipline. 5 point talent adding it to you list.  And you better brace your self. Because second specilization is going to be how it works. It is most  flexible and keeps players on par with each other. 

 

You know this for sure then? I'm not feeling the need to brace myself based on speculation.

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The problem I see with that scenario is that it does not emulate someone who's core is being a Force-user. Keeping Force-use as nothing more than Unispecs means it will always be nothing more than a tacked on afterthought. And I am pretty sure that there are people that want to play Force-users where Force-use is the core concept. Hence why I believe there will be Force career(s).

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The problem I see with that scenario is that it does not emulate someone who's core is being a Force-user. Keeping Force-use as nothing more than Unispecs means it will always be nothing more than a tacked on afterthought. And I am pretty sure that there are people that want to play Force-users where Force-use is the core concept. Hence why I believe there will be Force career(s).

 

But where is that "tacked on" perception coming from? Does it, perhaps, come from d20, where you could start as a Force Using class? Because I recall (but am not certain) that the Force was an accessory ability in WEG Star Wars and in every conversion I've seen. Are you drawing your basis of comparison and expectations from d20 or are you drawing it from Star Wars? Why is it so necessary for the Force to be the central concept for your character? Why is it so important for your character to be so one-dimensional? And why is it so necessary for so many people that this game mirror Star Wars d20? This game isn't Star Wars d20. Leave all of that baggage at the door, because you are only going to be disappointed.

 

I've been reading up on the game Barbarians of Lemuria. It's a very rules-light game about playing a sword swinging barbarian who fights evil necromancers and takes loot. It's about as one-dimensional and murder hobo as you can get. Yet, each of the character has this plethora of past jobs, experiences, and careers that they have or are still involved with, making the characters surprisingly deep and well-rounded. I'm finding myself fascinated with this, as such a simply game can make richer characters than I see in most other games. The game draws from Sword and Sorcery literature, the genre from which Conan belongs. Conan, for example, was also a thief, a sailor, and I believe a slave at one point. Being a barbarian was central to the character concept, but he also had all these other jobs, skills, and networks available to him. Why should a Force User in Star Wars be any different? Why should a Force User just be a Force User?

Edited by ScooterinAB

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Mouthymerc is (I feel) saying that a character should be able to be PRIMARILY a force-user.

 

I have absolutely no doubt we shall see Force-orientated careers. 

 

I don't mind characters who picked up the Force-use after being other things, but I also want space for characters who have been training as one all their lives and see themselves primarily as Jedi or Sisters or Sith or whatever. 

 

They have been teasing us with Exile and Emergent so far, giving us a taste of the Force without having it overwhelm EoE or AoR.  Now, this is the book that will give us full-on (but hopefully balanced) Force-users.

Edited by Maelora

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I'm sure there will be Force user Careers.  The PT clearly left the door open to Jedi and Padawan surviving the purge when Obi-Wan and Yoda switched the bogus temple recall signal.  That isn't much of a hop story wise that some could have gone into hiding to maintain a sort of Underground Railroad for Force users.  So there is plenty of room provided by canon for the Jedi themselves to have survived in some numbers.

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I'm definitely in the camp of "Force oriented careers and specializations." To be honest, I would also think that Jedi would be an acceptable career, especially since Sentinel, Guardian and Consular seem to be three fairly well-defined specializations. 

 

I'm also pretty sure there will be other Force-user careers, but I wouldn't want to predict what they would be. I think FFG is going to have to walk a fine line to not have the Force-users overpower the rest of the group, although I think that the introduction of Signature Abilities gives non-Force sensitives some cool things to do all their own. However, I really like AoR and EotE, so I can't wait to see what they do with FaD.

 

One final thing--I think the mechanic they're going to introduce in FaD is Destiny. It would definitely fit, and they could introduce some rules about how the Dark Side can dominate your destiny, as Yoda warned. :)

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This conversation brings to mind a "lesson" by Kreia.

 

When I spoke of sight before, there is a similar handicap that tends to occur among those strong in the Force. They neglect their skills. Some believe they no longer need them. The greatest wielders of the Force are those that maintain some grounding to the more... physical realities of the universe.  

 

Some wielders of the Force have mastered piloting... others the ability to fix and repair and build, from simple moisture vaporators to more complex machines, such as droids and vehicles. One's ability to understand the human body and its ailments, for example, can make your powers within the Force more complete, more powerful when you attempt to repair the cellular damage of another. And others have mastered the more subtle work of politics, persuasion. Do not doubt that a galaxy may be conquered with words, a Republic overthrown, and an empire made. When such abilities are honed, one's abilities with the Force become that much stronger.

 

My warning to you is this - do not rely on your companions to compensate for your weaknesses in skill. There will be times they will not be there to help you when needed.

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Love some good Darth Traya wisdom.

"Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child."

I would expect, at least, lots of good Force talents in the book.

Whatever the outcome, though, I know I'm not going to be disappointed. FFG has done a fantastic job with this line so far, and even if they produce something I haven't expected, it doesn't mean I'm disappointed. Unfulfilled expectations only lead to disappointment if you let them.

Edited by awayputurwpn

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I think to make sure no one can have any fun playing a Jedi properly simulate the dedication required to use the force, every time a character wants to use a force power their player should have to chop 1/2 inch off the end of their cock with one of those cigar cutter things.

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I think the only one focused on d20 Star Wars is you, ScooterinAB. WEG was an open system as far as character creation went. One could choose a template to start, if they chose, but otherwise you could focus progression in lightsaber and Force-powers just as people have always done. And a Force career would no more create Force focused characters than someone taking Bounty Hunter or Soldier would solely be bounty hunters or soldiers. Unless someone focuses by choice. I imagine there shall be some variance, much like other careers, with the specializations in a Jedi career. Not to mention the ability to take other specs that all characters have the ability to do.

 

What we don't have is the ability to create a a character whose schtick is as a Force-user. Hence the reason I think there will be Force career(s). As Maelora stated.

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I think to make sure no one can have any fun playing a Jedi properly simulate the dedication required to use the force, every time a character wants to use a force power their player should have to chop 1/2 inch off the end of their cock with one of those cigar cutter things.

Wow. That's harsh. You don think it was maybe for balancing purposes and char dev that the force powers are handled the way they are? If you want to be a bad mf force user just play force unleashed and not an rpg. I can't imagine how else you'd be able to demonstrate the ability to call upon the force and the choice one is presented to either fall to the dark side or not (mechanically).

Edited by edisung

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I think to make sure no one can have any fun playing a Jedi properly simulate the dedication required to use the force, every time a character wants to use a force power their player should have to chop 1/2 inch off the end of their cock with one of those cigar cutter things.

Wow. That's harsh. You don think it was maybe for balancing purposes and char dev that the force powers are handled the way they are? If you want to be a bad mf force user just play force unleashed and not an rpg. I can't imagine how else you'd be able to demonstrate the ability to call upon the force and the choice one is presented to either fall to the dark side or not (mechanically).

 

I'm sure the developers of FaD have some ideas on how to represent the Light/Dark conflict. It's always been the key conflict for Force-users in pretty much every Star Wars story.

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I think the only one focused on d20 Star Wars is you, ScooterinAB. WEG was an open system as far as character creation went. One could choose a template to start, if they chose, but otherwise you could focus progression in lightsaber and Force-powers just as people have always done. And a Force career would no more create Force focused characters than someone taking Bounty Hunter or Soldier would solely be bounty hunters or soldiers. Unless someone focuses by choice. I imagine there shall be some variance, much like other careers, with the specializations in a Jedi career. Not to mention the ability to take other specs that all characters have the ability to do.

 

What we don't have is the ability to create a a character whose schtick is as a Force-user. Hence the reason I think there will be Force career(s). As Maelora stated.

I'm not sure exactly what game you've been playing, but you can make a Force User, as a starting character, in either EOE or AoR and have that be their central schtick. Just because it doesn't say Jedi in the title or because they don't start with a lightsaber doesn't make it unreal. In fact, I'm playing in a game with a starting Force User right now and she was pretty strong out of the gate. She did this by taking a career that complimented her power selections and making sacrifices that any player makes in order to create an optimal character. One version of my character was also a Force User to start, nut I opted to pick up the spec later. It can be done, even if your anger and attachment to d20 tropes are blinding you from seeing it.

Just admit that you want FFG to remake d20 Star Wars. Just admit that you want them to bring back all the baggage and problems that that game embodied, rather than adhere solely to the source films. That's the only reason why you would hold so strongly to this Jedi fetish you're putting forwards. But that's not what FFG is doing, and I'm happy for it. They are making a tight game, free from the complications of the EU and the nonsense of all of the video games. They are making a game where the Force is an ally, not an AoE or Aura effect to shove down everyone's throats.

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I think the only one focused on d20 Star Wars is you, ScooterinAB. WEG was an open system as far as character creation went. One could choose a template to start, if they chose, but otherwise you could focus progression in lightsaber and Force-powers just as people have always done. And a Force career would no more create Force focused characters than someone taking Bounty Hunter or Soldier would solely be bounty hunters or soldiers. Unless someone focuses by choice. I imagine there shall be some variance, much like other careers, with the specializations in a Jedi career. Not to mention the ability to take other specs that all characters have the ability to do.

 

What we don't have is the ability to create a a character whose schtick is as a Force-user. Hence the reason I think there will be Force career(s). As Maelora stated.

I'm not sure exactly what game you've been playing, but you can make a Force User, as a starting character, in either EOE or AoR and have that be their central schtick. Just because it doesn't say Jedi in the title or because they don't start with a lightsaber doesn't make it unreal. In fact, I'm playing in a game with a starting Force User right now and she was pretty strong out of the gate. She did this by taking a career that complimented her power selections and making sacrifices that any player makes in order to create an optimal character. One version of my character was also a Force User to start, nut I opted to pick up the spec later. It can be done, even if your anger and attachment to d20 tropes are blinding you from seeing it.

Just admit that you want FFG to remake d20 Star Wars. Just admit that you want them to bring back all the baggage and problems that that game embodied, rather than adhere solely to the source films. That's the only reason why you would hold so strongly to this Jedi fetish you're putting forwards. But that's not what FFG is doing, and I'm happy for it. They are making a tight game, free from the complications of the EU and the nonsense of all of the video games. They are making a game where the Force is an ally, not an AoE or Aura effect to shove down everyone's throats.

 

Your Force-user you speak about can't take a Signature Ability outside of whatever his non-Force Career is, and can't attach Signature Abilities to the Force-Sensitive Universal Spec despite your claim that this is the character's central schtick. For those that use Signature Abilities, this is a real issue.

 

As for not using the EU, these lines are totally saturated with EU material, so I'm obviously not seeing the game the same way you do. As far as speaking about the nonsense of the video game, I'm afraid that the Age of Rebellion book references that specifically, so... :P

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Ugh, chill guys.

 

Thus far, Exile and Emergent give us rules for Force characters whose main focus is something other than force use.  Multi-class characters, if you will.  Someone like Luke in the first film. 

 

While that's a perfectly valid character concept, most fans of this game want F&D to provide a character whose main focus is being a Force-user.   Someone who has always been a Jedi or Sister of Dathomir or whatever, rather than a soldier or politico who discovered they were force-sensitive and taught themselves a bit about their powers.

 

It's got nothing to do with power (even with 2 Force dice, an Exile or Emergent can trash half a dozen ATATs with Move as if they were tin cans, on a good roll) and everything to do with character focus.

 

Seeing as how F&D is, y'know, going to be the Force-specific book, I don't know how FFG are NOT going to offer us full force users here.   The only thing we don't know is if they are going to be called Jedi, or (more likely) they will be generic specialisations like Exile and Emergent so we can make a force-user of any tradition you want.

 

Heck, if anything, the original movie era gives the non-Jedi force-users a chance to shine (assuming you're using canon, which I'm not personally, we have a full Jedi/Sith faction that's not tied to the Alliance or Empire).

 

The most important things is that these force-users are balanced, which is why FFG have left this one 'til last, as previous versions of SW games have made Jedi characters overpowered right out of the gate.

Edited by Maelora

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I think to make sure no one can have any fun playing a Jedi properly simulate the dedication required to use the force, every time a character wants to use a force power their player should have to chop 1/2 inch off the end of their cock with one of those cigar cutter things.

 

I'm disappointed, Erik.  Your new incarnation seems to be more polite and reasoned, and now you go and ruin it with a nasty sexual comment. 

 

(and what if the force-user in question is female? No, on second thoughts, please don't answer that.)

 

What do you have against FFG trying to balance all types of characters? One of the things I loved about EoE is that people like Han or Lando were heroic again, unlike the last 20 years of fanfiction where you needed glowstick to be a hero?

 

The Force is what makes SW unique, but I want non-force characters to be perfectly valid player choices. 

 

(and I don't think such things can ever be completely balanced... maxing out the Move tree allows you to do Eff-You style nonsense already, but it takes a large amount of XP to do it).   

Edited by Maelora

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