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oriondean

thinking about F&D beta.

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A couple of things.

 

Firstly, Jedi is too recognizable a term in relation to Star Wars that it won't be used in relation to a career. Many people have been looking forward to having just such a career. They do not want Generic Force user #1 that you call a Jedi. They want Jedi just as we have Bounty Hunters and Smugglers.

 

Secondly, FFG is not going to create a weak Jedi career no matter the timeframe. Just because they have focused on the OT does not mean they are going to create some watered down Jedi to play. They will have full-blown Jedi so you can run games set in the OT, PT, TOR or Legacy or whatever you want. It would completely pointless to do otherwise. It doesn't mean they won't expand on them at some point, but they will give a good representation of all Jedi, not Jedi wannabes After Empire or whatever.

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I think it is more likely that there will be a few Jedi careers, maybe themed by the old guardian/councilor/sentinel split – or something like it.

 

Since Force Users can only raise their Force Rating by basically completing a career, it stands that they must have a number of careers to move through to develop. It also allows for a group of Jedi that have distinct schticks. 

 

... and while I think that there will be options for non-Jedi Force Users, this is most likely going to be seen as the "Jedi book." I would expect half of the careers, if not more, dedicated to them.

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Just because the existing force user careers, both representing inexperienced or rusty sensitives, only have a force rating increase at the bottom of their tree doesn't mean Jedi and other trained force users will. I can see maybe two careers for jedi for 6 specializations total, but I don't think more than that would be necessary. Remember they'll still have force powers to diversify themselves more than the classes in the first two lines.

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So if they do a Jedi career, what would the dpecialties be?

Guardian, Consular and sentinel? What about all the Jedi pilots. Or librarians. Or healers, shadows. What three to six specialties will be given to the Jedi? Will the reprint specialties? If so, does that mean that the new specialties will have increased force rating and the old ones don't? Why take the regular pilot tree if there is a Jedi pilot that gives force rating? Using all three core books should be a factor.

I've argued countless times that I feel the best way to represent being a Jedi is through the possible obligation/duty mechanic for this. It can be applied to any character whether they started in edge of the empire or age of rebellion to force and destiny. This would also preserve the method of playing a character in force and destiny that doesn't start as a Jedi - which is just as important as those characters that do.

The trope of becoming a Jedi from other beginnings has been done just as much as Jedi in hiding but still practice or ones that have abandoned their training. A obligstion/duty mechanic that represents how dedicated you are to the Jedi path (and which would also be used to represent other traditions in the galaxy) offers more versatility that a Jedi career or sith , dathomiri witch, aang tii monk or whatever other force tradition you can think up. Ive called this mechanic commitment, as in Yoda's line "a Jedi must have the deepest commitment".

Luke in his showdown with Vader on bespin was not a Jedi, he was on the path but he ignored his commitment to save his friends.. or so he thought.

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Guardian, Consular and sentinel? What about all the Jedi pilots. Or librarians. Or healers, shadows. What three to six specialties will be given to the Jedi? Will the reprint specialties? If so, does that mean that the new specialties will have increased force rating and the old ones don't? Why take the regular pilot tree if there is a Jedi pilot that gives force rating? Using all three core books should be a factor.

 

Except for pilot, I think more specific specializations would be ideal.

 

I'm not sure what people's resistance to Jedi having the same variety of options that other characters do, but my money is on them following the 6 career-book plan for this line.

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Guardian, Consular and sentinel? What about all the Jedi pilots. Or librarians. Or healers, shadows. What three to six specialties will be given to the Jedi? Will the reprint specialties? If so, does that mean that the new specialties will have increased force rating and the old ones don't? Why take the regular pilot tree if there is a Jedi pilot that gives force rating? Using all three core books should be a factor.

 

Except for pilot, I think more specific specializations would be ideal.

 

I'm not sure what people's resistance to Jedi having the same variety of options that other characters do, but my money is on them following the 6 career-book plan for this line.

 

I think it's less resistance and more just the issue of people not wanting generic force-using-bass-___ classes peanut butter in their Jedi rule book chocolate.

 

Me? I like chocolate and peanut butter...

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Regardless of the inaccuracy, there are players I've met that refer to all Force-users as Jedi. Since I've seen it so often, I see Jedi as a generic term for Force Users.

WEG did that constantly, particularly since at the time Jedi pretty much did equate to "someone who can use the Force."  It was only later that the more neutral term of "Force user" started seeing more usage, and not really taking off until WotC introduced the Force Adept as "a Force user with no ties to the Jedi" in the OCR.

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As far as Jedi career/s and specializations, I'd kind of prefer that FFG doesn't go full-tilt and create separate careers along the Consular/Guardian/Sentinel split.

 

I suggested this in a F&D-related thread over in the EotE section, but perhaps FFG might take a page out of the SW:TOR MMO's book regarding Jedi, having two base careers (Consular and Knight are what the MMO uses if I remember right), and then tack the three specializations onto those, with Knight have Guardian (straight-up combat), Sentinel (investigation and stealth), and perhaps some kind of pilot-themed spec while Consular gets Mystic, Healer, and perhaps a scholarly-themed spec.  This way, you cover the various bases of what we've seen various Jedi-types do in the EU without going overkill right at the start and thus leaving some room for additional specializations to be added when the inevitable career sourcebooks are released (you know they're coming so long as FFG has the license).

 

It'd strike a decent balance between the "one career with C/G/S specs" and "one career for C/G/S each and 9 specs total" for having Jedi in the core rulebook.

 

And yeah, anyone that honestly expects FFG to not have a career labeled Jedi is pretty delusional.  Jedi are by far one of the biggest and most recognizable elements of the brand, so FFG would be fools not to include them.  And the design team for these books have shown that foolish is something they are not.

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Guardian, Consular and sentinel? What about all the Jedi pilots. Or librarians. Or healers, shadows. What three to six specialties will be given to the Jedi? Will the reprint specialties? If so, does that mean that the new specialties will have increased force rating and the old ones don't? Why take the regular pilot tree if there is a Jedi pilot that gives force rating? Using all three core books should be a factor.

 

Except for pilot, I think more specific specializations would be ideal.

 

I'm not sure what people's resistance to Jedi having the same variety of options that other characters do, but my money is on them following the 6 career-book plan for this line.

 

 

It's not resistance to Jedi having variety, for me at least, it's more resistance to the idea that there will be no support for any of the other, just as interesting if not iconic force traditions. I for one will be very sad if there isn't something for the Baran-do.

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Not sure why everyone is so absolutely certain FFG will have a 'Jedi' career. Or that those who don't think so are 'delusional'. 

 

Yeah, this is the book where they stop being coy about the Force and give us full-on Force users. And 'Jedi' is the single most recognizable SW term.... in fact, the main thing which makes SW unique from other sci-fi genres.

 

But.  

 

Thus far, FFG have released 40 separate specializations over 12 careers, and each and every one of them has had a generic, non-SW name.

 

That's 100% of them, so far.

 

And no, 'bounty hunter' and 'smuggler' are not SW trademarks or unique to SW. We have these things even today in our world. Yes, they have a certain place in SW, but they are not Lucas trademarks, any more than 'soldier' or 'ace' are.

 

(Which always confuses me about people demanding an Imperial PC book... what are you expecting in an Imperial Pilot spec that you don't have in 'Pilot' already? What makes an Imperial Commander different from the one in the AoR Beta?)

 

So far, no Specialization or Career has an in-game name, so you could in fact transplant the character rules to any other sci-fi system (if you wanted to make a Mass Effect or Firefly game, say). 

 

So while it's possible the unique nature of the Force classes will see FFG break with this tradition, I don't think it's by any means certain, or that people who think that are 'delusional'.

 

Me, I'd be happy to see Sentinel/Consular/Guardian reappear.  But something tells me we're much more likely to see 'Force Sensitive Warrior' or 'Force Sensitive Adept' than specific in-game titles. I think we might see things like 'Jedi' or 'Witch of Dathomir' as the equivalent of Duty or Obligation, in fact (as Samophlange said).

 

So a 'Force Sensitive Adept' specialization could therefore cover anything from a Sith sorcerer, or Jedi Consular, to a Dathomir Witch, and everyone's happy.

 

Not saying they will do this, but it feels like an option to me, and it's in keeping with how they have handled the game thus far. 

Edited by MTaylor

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You make some good points MTaylor but every Career also has a list of things that make that career unique in a lore perspective, every one in EotE has about a page, once you subtract the spec talk and artwork, devoted to what kind of person would take this career, what stuff will they expect to do, not as far as skillset, but as a professional and a person. So I think lumping careers together by what they are good at, rather than by force traditions or overarching philosophies, would be more against the way they've done things so far.

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Why a Jedi career?

 

Because Jedi are by far one of the most iconic and unique elements to the Star Wars setting.  They get mentioned in pretty much ever element of Star Wars media, and generally wind up being the protagonists of most media they appear in, or at least major supporting characters.

 

It'd be akin to setting a Star Wars RPG in the Rebellion Era and not having any mention of the Galactic Empire.  Or a crime-based campaign without any mention of the Hutts.  There are certain elements that the general public identifies as iconic to the Star Wars franchise, and Jedi are at the top of the list.

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MTaylor,

While things like "bounty hunter" and "smuggler" may not be SW-specific, they do conjure up images of certain characters and character types.  Ask folks about smugglers in Star Wars, and they'll think of Han Solo.  Mention "scoundrels" and odds are good the person thought of will be Lando Calrissian.  Bounty hunters brings up images of folks like Boba Fett (identified in the films as simply "bounty hunter") or Cad Bane (for those familiar with the Clone Wars TV series).  Mention "pilot" and folks will think of Wedge Antilles, while "diplomat" suggests individuals such as Princess Leia or Padme.

 

The six films that make up the core of the Star Wars setting all feature Jedi as primary characters (the prequels too much so for some folks).  One of the biggest complaints against FFG's system is that "there's no actual Jedi in the game."  For some, the lure of playing in the Star Wars setting is having the opportunity to play a Jedi character.  Since Force and Destiny is the capstone to the "three core rulebook" model, and is focused on Force users, having at least one Jedi career is pretty much a no-brainer.  Even if a given player may not express any interest in ever playing a Jedi, much less a Force-user, there's going to be four to six more players that are going to want to play actual Jedi, not the "make do" versions that AoR & EotE offer.

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MTaylor,

While things like "bounty hunter" and "smuggler" may not be SW-specific, they do conjure up images of certain characters and character types.  Ask folks about smugglers in Star Wars, and they'll think of Han Solo.  Mention "scoundrels" and odds are good the person thought of will be Lando Calrissian.  Bounty hunters brings up images of folks like Boba Fett (identified in the films as simply "bounty hunter") or Cad Bane (for those familiar with the Clone Wars TV series).  Mention "pilot" and folks will think of Wedge Antilles, while "diplomat" suggests individuals such as Princess Leia or Padme.

 

Yes. Bounty Hunter and Smuggler may not be trademarks – and I don't know why that would matter – but they are part of the Star Wars brand. They are iconic enough that they shoehorned together an odd assortment of specializations just so they could call one career "Smuggler." 

 

Most (not all) of the specs/careers have "generic names" but that's because there aren't many instances where Star Wars has its own term for things. When they do have one – like Slicer – they use it. 

Edited by Doc, the Weasel

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So, will they break with the format of the last two books and have:

 

a) something other than six careers and 18 specializations?

 

b) non-generic names for these?

 

Possibly. 

 

But I don't see it as a given.

 

I was just talking about this with a friend last night.  will we see the specializations for EotE and AoR repeated in F&D, it's likely, but there will also have to be others -- I'm thinking Jedi Knight or Jedi Master.  Also, since F&D is focused upon force users, we may even see the ability to be a Sith.  I think that the careers provided in AoR easily translate to playing Imperial characters and running that Imp Campaign that many here on the boards have been asking for.  With F&D, I don't think that the light side Jedi traits have that same ability to fulfill dark side traits (for example, Force lightning).  Some traits can be surely be corrupted by dark side uses, but there are certain abilities that IMO fall solely under the dark side.  It would be interesting to see this presented for those players that want to fall to the dark side of the Force.

 

What was puzzling my friend and I the most was how focused F&D would be upon force users -- will there be careers and specializations that are unrelated to using the force?  I think the answer depends on how much F&D is meant to appeal to non-force wielding pcs.  If you look at F&D as a stand alone game focusing solely on users of the Force, I don't think it would be unreasonable to omit the careers and specializations that we have come to know in EotE and AoR (beta - so far).

 

So if F&D focuses only upon force using careers, what would those six careers and three specializations each be?

Edited by edisung

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Keep the splat books in mind. I wouldn't be surprised if an Empire book came out for AOR, and likewise some sort of "Forbidden tome" of darkside for Force and Destiny. So far the extra material has been spot on amazing and really flavored things. I think a Core Jedi Career makes sense with Sentinel/Guardian/Consular and a further splat with the extra's (Weapon Master, Healer, Jedi Ace) along with Agricorps and whatnot.

 

I'm betting on Miriluka, and Neti being in either the core or a splat for F&D.

 

I would also bank on the 3 impressive SW books (The Jedi Path, Book of Sith, and The Bounty Hunter Code) being mined to provide heavily. 

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I want to first address these "other setting" delusions. FFG is not making a game set in the Prequels, or he Old Republic, or Legacy Era, or any other time frame. FFG is making games set during the original trilogy and the Rebellion Era. So please put your wishlists away, because FFG has done exactly nothing to make anyone believe that they are releasing a game with full fledged Jedi that are meant to be played in any timeframe. This believe is not based on facts or any amount of observation, and I wish people would stop making crap up and stop projecting their own wishes onto this game. After all, it's not like it is that hard to run FFG Star Wars in another timeframe; we don't need FFG holding our hands, telling up how to do it.

Now, as I have said before over and over again, all of this Jedi Guardian/Consular/Sentinel baggage can die in the hottest fires on the brightest stars. There are two reasons why I strongly do not believe that FFG is going in this direction, and neither one has to do with wishlisting.

First of all, that baggage comes solely from Wizards of the Coast and no where else. Accepting that baggage, investing in it, and using it means that FFG owes WotC something. It means that FFG has established their game in a lineage with WotC's, as oppose to simply establishing it in the Star Wars universe. There is no instance or mention of Jedi Guardian, Consular, or Sentinel that does not stem directly from WotC (for proof, look at pre-KotOR comics and novels, which are completely absent of this material). Furthermore, Jedi Sentinels aren't even a real thing; they were fabricated by the Knights of the Old Republic video game (which traces its lineage to WotC) as a way to further distinguish the Jedi "classes," so as to make the game more interesting. They are nothing more than a statistical mechanic and serve no storytelling purpose, nor do they have any basis or establishment in the universe. By continuing to invest in this baggage, FFG shows that they owe WotC. Rather, if FFG only draws from the original movies and pre-existing material, it owes only Lucas Films for its game line. And if you just paid a fortune for a media license, who are you more likely to get in bed with?

Second, and most importantly, FFG isn't going to invalidate their own games after continually making it so clear that they would exactly not do that. Making a Jedi career invalidates the concept of universal specializations and the prior Force User material from EoE and AoR. It means that any characters (and players) who started out from the bottom get a slap to the chops because now they actually aren't Jedi, despite that being the advancement and narrative path spelled out for them. For the players, FFG just gave them the biggest, fattest middle finger and no thanks for their show of support for the line early on. Instead of being able to develop their characters into powerful Force Users and reclaim the mantle of the Jedi, by making a Jedi career, FFG would have delivered a very clear message that every player who spend their hard earned money and game time was a chump and are now left with a broken, half-truth character.

This is the same argument regarding changing the Force rules to use the normal rolling mechanics instead of the white dice. They've already printed two games to the contrary. Changing the game now is only going to piss people off and make F&D less usable with the rest of the line.

So no. In all honesty, we are going to see much of the same. We will probably see another universal Force specialization, although we could see multiple. We will probably see a new power or two, but we could see all of them reprinted in one place. But we will probably see a whole lot of non-Force using, non-Jedi careers and specializations in the same fashion as we say in EoE and AoR. And we will probably see FFG doing their own thing instead of making derivative works based off of WotC's baggage. And when the F&D beta drops in a month or so, all this wishlisting is proven wrong, and nerd-rage screams out from the entire internet in a disturbance similar to the destruction of Alderaan, I'm probably laugh and then go back to enjoying the game, because I knew all along that it worked just fine. I don't need Force Users to be 100 times better, nor do I need a special snowflake label to explore the Jedi code.

Edited by ScooterinAB

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I don't think using the Guardian/Consular/Sentinel terminology shows that "FFG owes WotC" any more than using Sienar Flight Systems means that they owe West End Games. A lot of material started within RPGs and then became part of the larger universe.

Edited by Revanchist7

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Possible options:

 

a) Jedi career, maybe Guardian/Sentinel/Consular, maybe something else 

 

b) universal, generic careers and specilisations.

 

 

I think it could be either, quite honestly. 

 

I get the feeling that F&D will be very contentious, more than the other games.

 

There's a reason why they left this one 'til last.

 

 

I don't care either way, as long as things are balanced.  I want a 500 XP bounty hunter to be equal overall to a 500 XP Jedi.

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So you don't think the Emergent or the Exile aren't early attempts to explore their plans for the Force & Destiny book?

 

So far it sounds like people are looking at other game system attempts and assume something similar will happen, I think we have already been experiencing their ideas towards Jedi and the other traditions its just up to this point they've been presented in a form that keeps them balanced with the other books they've released namely Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion.

 

For Edge we have the universal force specialisation where they want to stay out of the Empire's attention, the age of rebellion which sounds more like an attempt by the Rebellion to recruit the one thing that would stick in the Empire's craw more than anything.

 

For Force & Destiny I'd like to see Talent Trees for the various Lightsaber combat forms, heck I'd prefer they allow anyone to use a Lightsaber and simply rule you need to be force sensitive to make use of the Talent Trees for Lightsaber combat but I expect the other guesses on this thread to be a lot closer to what we might see.

 

Maybe those careers will be the various different Force Traditions?

 

I'd still prefer the Lightsaber to be a part of the Melee skill so I can have Boba Fett scare the heck out of my players simply because he knows how to use that weapon! :)

Hmm I wonder if they'll mention that block a lightsaber blade with the palm of your hand trick from the KOTOR cinematic? :o

 

Anyway only a month or so to go before we find out... maybe?

Edited by copperbell

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Wow talk about nerd-rage. Whatever they do, I haven't been disappointed with FFG so far and don't expect to be. This is all just speculation for me and for others. Whether there will be Jedi career(s) or not ultimately is not a wish for me, just what I imagine will be done following on what has been done so far. I imagine I'll be fine with whatever route they decide to go as long as it retains the balance the system has shown so far.

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