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oriondean

thinking about F&D beta.

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Actually, it is fairly hard to die in this system, even using a lightsaber. Being incapacitated due to exceeding wound threshold is easy.

With rounds lasting generally up to a minute, but having no set length, a duel will actually be, if described properly (narratively), back and forth blows being exchanged. One dice roll foes not alwsys equal one swing of a weapon (or shots fired).

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See those are the things that worry me is while it hard to die in this game the lightsaber is the killer of players.  I don't think FFG will use MY rules but they do need some rules to mitigate the fact that this weapon can kill players very quickly.  Even a disruptor can be mitigated to the point you survive maybe one or even two shots if hit.  After two confirmed hits with a lightsaber unless you are one tough SOB with a lot of wounds you are simply dead as you probably don't have enough wounds to survive 22 points of damage.  This is not including if the critical hit or two you probably took didn't just render you completely useless.  To be honest I wouldn't even play a lightsaber wielding character just so I would limit my GM's incentive to throw lightsabers into the game to counter it.  I would simply use my talents and force powers to be one bad ass ranged or even melee character.

A Marauder with a Vibro axe, simple attachments, a couple ranks of Feral Strength, Frenzied Attack and Lethal Blows pretty much delivers the same kind of hits a Lightsaber does.  A Gadgeteer can easily Jury Rig an Auto-Fire weapon into a death hose already.  I don't think they're going to mitigate Lightsabers if they allow those options.

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See those are the things that worry me is while it hard to die in this game the lightsaber is the killer of players.  I don't think FFG will use MY rules but they do need some rules to mitigate the fact that this weapon can kill players very quickly.  Even a disruptor can be mitigated to the point you survive maybe one or even two shots if hit.  After two confirmed hits with a lightsaber unless you are one tough SOB with a lot of wounds you are simply dead as you probably don't have enough wounds to survive 22 points of damage.  This is not including if the critical hit or two you probably took didn't just render you completely useless.  To be honest I wouldn't even play a lightsaber wielding character just so I would limit my GM's incentive to throw lightsabers into the game to counter it.  I would simply use my talents and force powers to be one bad ass ranged or even melee character.

A Marauder with a Vibro axe, simple attachments, a couple ranks of Feral Strength, Frenzied Attack and Lethal Blows pretty much delivers the same kind of hits a Lightsaber does.  A Gadgeteer can easily Jury Rig an Auto-Fire weapon into a death hose already.  I don't think they're going to mitigate Lightsabers if they allow those options.

 

Precisely.

 

The game already has "killer combos" that won't draw any greater attention than openly brandishing a lightsaber would, and it's far easier to get to those "broken" set-ups than it is to get a lightsaber under most circumstances.  After all, just because Force & Destiny is printed doesn't mean the GM is under any obligation to allow any of the material from it.

 

If one-on-one lightsaber duels do wind up getting a separate discussion, I'd be surprised if a lot of it simply revolved around suggestions to force setback dice onto the attacker's roll, or even suggest "now would be a great time to spend Destiny Points."  It's quite possible that any Jedi specializations will themselves have various defensive talents, either ones we've already seen or new ones that take advantage of the lightsaber's unique properties and the Jedi's Force-enhanced reflexes to make it more difficult to hit them, and all without having to re-write the combat rules for a single category of weapon.

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I just had an, admittedly, long shot of an idea. With force and destiny being the last RPG for Star Wars, and considering much of the demand for Jedi, coupled with the new casting of Lupita Nyong'o and Gwendoline Christie, this could be the game with a create your own career/specialty.

I have long thought (hoped) that we would not get a Jedi career, but more universal careers and specialties and an overarching mechanic that espouses what force using tradition you belong to (search the forums for commitment, I've talked about it).

Now I mentioned the new casting.. with rumours of Miss Nyong'o playing Ventress, there could be a chance that we are getting nightsisters as well. With many of the EU traditions getting removed from continuity potentially, having a create your own faction could be a way to incorporate the potential of Jedi, Sith, nightsister/witches and other factions that many (in regards to jedi ) want as careers.

Time will tell, and as I say, it is a long shot.

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The Ventress casting rumor is likely nothing more than fanboy dreaming.

 

Given both of the prior books have used the career/specialization system, odds pretty high that F&D is going to continue that trend.  Particularly when one keeps in mind that all three core rulebooks are meant to be used as part of a unified whole as well as being used individually.

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Regarding (Lightsaber) duels: I was thinking it could possibly be either Opposed checks, or something similar to vehicle combat maneuvers and actions: Gain the Advantage, Evasive Maneuvers, and Stay on Target.

Regarding blaster bolt deflection: I'm thinking this is a prime avenue for Competitive Checks to shine. Jedi and gunman compete over where the blaster bolts go :)

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Regarding (Lightsaber) duels: I was thinking it could possibly be either Opposed checks, or something similar to vehicle combat maneuvers and actions: Gain the Advantage, Evasive Maneuvers, and Stay on Target.

Regarding blaster bolt deflection: I'm thinking this is a prime avenue for Competitive Checks to shine. Jedi and gunman compete over where the blaster bolts go :)

I really like the idea of adding new maneuvers - for any hand-to-hand, not just for Lightsaber. I don't like the idea of opposed checks though.

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Regarding (Lightsaber) duels: I was thinking it could possibly be either Opposed checks, or something similar to vehicle combat maneuvers and actions: Gain the Advantage, Evasive Maneuvers, and Stay on Target.

Regarding blaster bolt deflection: I'm thinking this is a prime avenue for Competitive Checks to shine. Jedi and gunman compete over where the blaster bolts go :)

I really like the idea of adding new maneuvers - for any hand-to-hand, not just for Lightsaber. I don't like the idea of opposed checks though.

 

The opposed checks has it's benefits and drawbacks.

 

The benefit is that in many cases, it makes it harder for the attacker to land a successful hit, particularly when various defensive traits (talents, powers, armor, etc) are added into the mix, and thus alleviates the concern of "base difficulty is too low."

 

Of course, that also leads to the drawback of making fights drag on too long, or simply being too lopsided in one combatant's favor if they've got a slew of defensive traits.  Take Vader for instance, who's likely got Adversary 3 (at least), the Sense defensive Control Upgrade (with Strength & Duration), and three or four setback dice due to Melee Defense (garnered from a mix of armor and lightsaber-based defensive talents).  Tack all those onto his already formidable Lightsaber skill and Brawn Characteristic (he's been described as more of a power/strength fighter post-RotS than his flashier/agility-based style prior to his injuries on Mustafar), and anyone facing Vader would need an honest-to-Yoda miracle to score a successful hit, much less trigger any weapon qualities.  After enough XP, you could have a PC that's similarly buffed up their defenses, particularly if they've got multiple ranks in the Dodge talent and are only squaring off against a single adversary; unless that adversary is a twinked-out duelist build, the PC's only major concern is not running out of Strain from using Dodge each turn.

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Combatwise, yeah a lightsaber is going to chew through minion groups and dole out critical injuries by the handful... but that's part of what it's supposed to do.  It's much the same as trying to completely rework the ranged combat rules simply because of how brutal a disruptor pistol/rifle can be.

As importantly, the melee rules from as far back as Edge of the Empire were/are already designed to account for lightsabers (one sort at least)... it can't be customized, but even without that it's hilariously brutal in a trained user's hands!

 

Bingo.

 

FFG's had two books to note that if the standard combat rules are going to be changed for lightsabers in your average combat encounter.  Even if it's something as simple as "base difficulty is upgraded once due to the extreme danger in using a lightsaber, both to the target and the wielder."  And yet... nothing.  The only special rule where lightsabers are concerned is that EotE and AoR don't have an official skill to cover wielding them.  And since this entire system was devised with all three parts in mind, it's certain they had a pretty good idea of how lightsabers were going to shake out by the time F&D rolled around.

 

Heck, the rules for mass combat are being introduced as an option in supplemental material, as opposed to being in the core rulebook the way some folks were all but demanding when the AoR Beta.  And we've seen no sign of special rules for handling one-on-one dogfights in starfighters or gunslinger duels (such as Han vs. Gallandro in the Han Solo Corporate Sector Trilogy), with both instances being handled (thus far) under the standard rules.

 

As I said earlier, we may see optional rules for lightsaber duels when it's a PC vs. a Nemesis-tier NPC, but it seems that FFG's approach is that each core rulebook contains exactly that, the core rules required to play the game.

 

Also, their general approach falls in line with "Keep It Simple Simon," and not clogging down the game with excessively fiddly rules, even in those cases where folks are clamoring for excessively fiddly rules.  I wouldn't be surprised if the mass combat rules in the GM Kit/Operation Arda are a lot simpler than folks seem to be expecting, and really don't vary all that much from how standard skirmish-scale combat operates.  Heck, could be that it'll simply be a set of guidelines for treating a bunch of troops as a vehicle unit, with scaled-up damage ratings and damage thresholds with a handful of new maneuvers and actions for the groups to take.

 

if any special rules for lightsaber duels are implemented, it'll quite likely be something very simple that doesn't bog the game down, owing more to the system's narrative roots than any desire some might have to see a tactically-heavy method put in place.

 

where are you reading that part about mass combat being in suplemental material?

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It's going to be included with the GM kit for AoR and I think there are some other ones coming in the adventure Onslaught at Arda.  One is tactical level I think the other might be more strategic.

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I believe the GM kit will include rules for "Squads and Squadrons", which most people conclude will be Mass Combat.

 

Onslaught at Arda might be more along the lines of what most people think when they are talking about "Mass Combat".

Edited by kaosoe

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where are you reading that part about mass combat being in suplemental material?

From the "Onslaught at Arda I" announcement:

Game Masters can use the adventure’s mass combat rules to help bring the large-scale Battle of the Gauntlet to life, and the Player Characters’ actions will help shape the outcome.

From the GM Kit supplement page:

The GM Kit includes a GM screen which will keep all the information you’ll need as Game Master at your fingertips during your Age of Rebellion sessions. You’ll also find new rules for running military squads and squadrons. The GM Kit also includes a complete adventure, Dead in the Water, so you and your players can stand strong against the Empire, even after you’ve finished the adventure featured in the Core Rulebook.

So large-scale battle rules are in the Onslaught at Arda I adventure, and squads and squadrons are in the GM Kit (possibly might also be in in AoR core rulebook?). Hope that helps! Edited by awayputurwpn

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It's not hard to imagine that a rules addition might appear in two different supplements, but it won't occur in any supplements if it's in the core rulebook. This happened several times in the WH40K lines with new Talents (or clarifications), so I won't be surprised to see it in Star Wars too.

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I'm sure that whatever is included with the GM kit will also appear in the AoR Core book. The supplement will likely have an expansion/clarification for how to run those rules in a mass combat setting. I say this because the GM kit for EotE basically distills the information from the Core onto the screen for ease of use and reference. Adding new rules at the same time as the release of the Core seems like it would upset everyone who shelled out the cost for the more expensive Core book and then realized that rules were purposely left out. Adding expansive clarification to those rules in a supplement regarding the specific implementation of the rules seems like good practice and how I would describe earlier examples of supplement rules.

Also, I would imagine that the simplest way to implement lightsaber combat would be that it allows for opposed checks in combat rather than adding more and more dice to the pool. Though the suggestion that it might mirror the rules for vehicle combat maneuvers and play is an interesting one as well but would likely only just add access to certain normal combat maneuvers accessible only to pcs wielding lightsabers (similar to Pilots only maneuvers in space combat). I think that these present some of the more likely options for players while not overly complicating or adding new rules.

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I'm sure that whatever is included with the GM kit will also appear in the AoR Core book. The supplement will likely have an expansion/clarification for how to run those rules in a mass combat setting. I say this because the GM kit for EotE basically distills the information from the Core onto the screen for ease of use and reference. Adding new rules at the same time as the release of the Core seems like it would upset everyone who shelled out the cost for the more expensive Core book and then realized that rules were purposely left out. Adding expansive clarification to those rules in a supplement regarding the specific implementation of the rules seems like good practice and how I would describe earlier examples of supplement rules.

Also, I would imagine that the simplest way to implement lightsaber combat would be that it allows for opposed checks in combat rather than adding more and more dice to the pool. Though the suggestion that it might mirror the rules for vehicle combat maneuvers and play is an interesting one as well but would likely only just add access to certain normal combat maneuvers accessible only to pcs wielding lightsabers (similar to Pilots only maneuvers in space combat). I think that these present some of the more likely options for players while not overly complicating or adding new rules.

The Edge Ref's Kit adds a MAJOR (but short) chunk of rules - how to advance Nemesis level opponents. It's not based upon anything in the core; it's not replicated elsewhere; it's not essential but makes a HUGE difference in play.

Edited by aramis

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I bought both the EotE and AoR beta books.  The AoR book mainly for the vehicle stats, duty mechanic, and new talent/specialization

 

I will not be buying F&D beta.

 

First of all, I am not likely to be running a game or in a game with Force sensitive characters any time soon, to need to get latest Talents, specializations and skills that are subject to change.

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So this occurred to me on my way to work. F&D is part of the line but is also supposed to be its own stand alone game. This makes me think that exile and emergent will be reprinted in the book in some form (if not exactly). We kept going, "Well this way we can now hopefully get pat fp 3 to the higher levels.", but how if u use only this book? So going off this train of thought I think we will still get six classes three specializations but the specializations will only give you one fp boost per. So one will be traditional Jedi (obi-wan) with Palawan, knight, and exile as the three specialization then non traditional (Luke) with emergent then knight and master. Then the other classes which I do not care to guess. Or they could make it 18 specializations with no classes.

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So this occurred to me on my way to work. F&D is part of the line but is also supposed to be its own stand alone game. This makes me think that exile and emergent will be reprinted in the book in some form (if not exactly). We kept going, "Well this way we can now hopefully get pat fp 3 to the higher levels.", but how if u use only this book? So going off this train of thought I think we will still get six classes three specializations but the specializations will only give you one fp boost per. So one will be traditional Jedi (obi-wan) with Palawan, knight, and exile as the three specialization then non traditional (Luke) with emergent then knight and master. Then the other classes which I do not care to guess. Or they could make it 18 specializations with no classes.

There have been multiple speculation threads about this. I would be surprised to see any Sith careers. We may see Exile and Emergent reprinted. I don't see FFG changing the format of six careers and 18 specs. A couple of months and we should know soon enough.

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Yeah, we're likely going to see the typical "multiple careers with three specializations" format that FFG has used in EotE and AoR.  The Force Exile and Emergent were likely written with more of a "here's a bone for folks that want to play Force-users" than something we're likely to see included in the core rulebook that has Force users as one of it's key elements.  After all, why included previously published universal Force-sensitive specializations when you're going to have a number of career-linked Force-sensitive specializations?

 

Part of the question though is how many of those new careers are going to be Force-sensitive by default?  You're bound to have your Jedi career (possibly multiple if the design team opts to go whole-hog with the Consular/Guardian/Sentinel split and treat them as separate careers), as well as potentially other Force-sensitive careers for Force users that aren't affiliated with or trained under the auspices of the Jedi Order.

 

As for Sith... not likely, as so far FFG has generally stuck to the notion of "the PCs are heroes," even if that notion is somewhat nominal in EotE.  Sith are purely villains, particularly in the Rebellion Era, where the two prior core rulebooks for this linked system have been set.  Much like there aren't official rules for playing imperials in the AoR core rulebook, Sith and other inherently dark side traditions such as the Nightsisters or Prophets of the Dark Side are likely to be held for a future sourcebook as PC options, if covered at all.

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I'm still hoping for 'generic' or non specific philosophy careers and specialties with the obligation/duty equivalent determining which tradition you follow.

Except for philosophy, the Jedi and Sith pretty much look the same. Lightsaber wielding force users. Give a warrior career, with lightsaber duelist specialty. Universal specialties could even work in this regard, that way some force us can be required for lightsaber use, and all deflection blocking can be implemented.

I really think that the way the game will be set up will mimic Luke's progression throughout the trilogy, as well as former EU characters that discover their force potential gradually.

If there is/are Jedi careers and specialties, I'm going to pass on the core book.

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If there is/are Jedi careers and specialties, I'm going to pass on the core book.

Consider that Saga had Jedi as a class, but it didn't necessarily represent being a Jedi. IIRC, most Sith had levels of Jedi, including those that most certainly didn't start as Jedi and later turn.

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If there is/are Jedi careers and specialties, I'm going to pass on the core book.

Consider that Saga had Jedi as a class, but it didn't necessarily represent being a Jedi. IIRC, most Sith had levels of Jedi, including those that most certainly didn't start as Jedi and later turn.
I, personally, consider the use of a Jedi class to be lazy and poor design, which while saga edition was the best version of the wotc star wars run, is still a poor system.

They used Jedi as a class name, because Jedi is a known term. I'm hoping FFG has come up with a better method. A character can become a Jedi without having to take that career. Yes you can say your character is a Jedi without taking said hypothetical career, but many people would take that career over others because it says 'Jedi'.

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If there is/are Jedi careers and specialties, I'm going to pass on the core book.

Consider that Saga had Jedi as a class, but it didn't necessarily represent being a Jedi. IIRC, most Sith had levels of Jedi, including those that most certainly didn't start as Jedi and later turn.
I, personally, consider the use of a Jedi class to be lazy and poor design, which while saga edition was the best version of the wotc star wars run, is still a poor system..

They used Jedi as a class name, because Jedi is a known term. I'm hoping FFG has come up with a better method. A character can become a Jedi without having to take that career. Yes you can say your character is a Jedi without taking said hypothetical career, but many people would take that career over others because it says 'Jedi'.

 

Well, we do have a career called Smuggler, so

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