War of Five Kings and The Art of Seduction

[snowfrost 0]

when The Art of Seduction revealed,my opponent lose a challenge during this epic phase,next plot phase my opponent can't reveal a new plot,so the NEXT NEXT plot phase,he will choose plot card at random.right?

because "War of Five Kings" says "his or her next plot card",but The Art of Seduction stop my opponent reveal a plot card during next plot phase,so the NEXT NEXT plot phase,his will reveal his "next plot card".

right?thanks.

 

[ktom 598]

Well, there's no such thing as a "NEXT next plot." However, I could argue this both ways.

 

1) The effect from War of the Five Kings would apply to the next plot that the player actually reveals - no matter when that is. The fact that no plot is actually revealed in the next plot phase would thus "preserve" the effect until the next plot revealed by that player - be it in the plot phase of the following round, or through some effect like Bran or a Rookery.

 

2) The effect from War of the Five Kings modified the player's next opportunity to reveal a plot. The next opportunity to reveal the plot is when the "reveal plot" framework event initiates in the next plot phase. The "cannot reveal a new plot" from AoS doesn't stop the framework event from initiating any more than a "cannot be killed" character could stop Valar from initiating. In such situations, the "cannot" is applied at the point of resolution (resulting in a failed resolution), not initiation. So since the "reveal a plot" effect initiated - with the "random plot" limitation in full force - the effect from Wot5K is satisfied, even though AoS stopped the plot from being successfully revealed.

 

Both are reasonable within the rules, so you may want to send the question straight to FFG to choose between the options.

[Khudzlin 734]

Bran cannot bypass The Art of Seduction, because his ability is during the plot phase.

[Bomb 66]

Interesting...

 

I can see an argument for #2, but I personally think that #1 is correct.  If you cannot choose a plot, then you are not revealing your next plot.

[ktom 598]

Don't forget, Bomb, that the "choose and reveal plot" framework event initiates and resolves anyway. Since we're not talking about a triggered effect, the inability of "choose" from the "cannot" does not prevent the initiation.

The question/arguments simply boil down to whether Wot5K is applied to the next plot reveal effect initiated, or the next plot reveal effect successfully resolved. I would actually argue for "initiated" because the limitation is a play restriction - and thus applied/checked at initiation - the way that Val is applied to your next action/Response opportunity, not to the next action/Response you actually play. But I freely recognize the potential validity of the "successfully resolved" interpretation.

[Bomb 66]

Don't forget, Bomb, that the "choose and reveal plot" framework event initiates and resolves anyway. Since we're not talking about a triggered effect, the inability of "choose" from the "cannot" does not prevent the initiation.

The question/arguments simply boil down to whether Wot5K is applied to the next plot reveal effect initiated, or the next plot reveal effect successfully resolved. I would actually argue for "initiated" because the limitation is a play restriction - and thus applied/checked at initiation - the way that Val is applied to your next action/Response opportunity, not to the next action/Response you actually play. But I freely recognize the potential validity of the "successfully resolved" interpretation.

 

Fair enough.  That makes sense to me as to why it could be #2.

 

I agree with ktom that sending the question to FFG would be your best bet.

[catosmandros 0]

Today I was going to ask the same question, but I found this thread, sorry for reanimating it. Did FFG respond?

[catosmandros 0]

For future reference, and as noone responded within a reasonable time frame, I emailed Damon and asked him about the issue at hand.

 

He gave me permission to quote him here, so:

 

 

Now to newer your question, the next time the player who lost the challenge during the War of the Five Kings epic phase actually goes to reveal a plot she or he must do it at random. It has nothing specific to do with the reveal a plot Framework Action, the constant will remain until it is resolved, whenever that may be.

Edited June 12, 2014 by catosmandros