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using range rulers to place asteroids in a specific spot

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An asteroid token cannot be placed at Range 1–2 of any edge of the play area or at Range 1 of another asteroid token.

I don't see how there can be much argue about this lol. 

 

Edge > (Range 2) to Asteroid  , Asteroid > (Range 1) to Asteroid 

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Perhaps it is overstepping to think that many of the people who hold "measuring" to the strictest uses may also be the kind of people who get all kinds of "extras" for the game including custom star maps to play on.

 

I may have misunderstood you.  When you said "use a printed playfield that may just happen to have strategically placed reminders on it." it came off very much as a suggestion that those players would use those strategically placed reminders to take measurements they shouldn't.  If the point was simply to delineate the hardcore, my apologies for reading too much into it.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never found it useful to try and use printed marks to gauge anything anyway.  Maybe I just don't put enough time into memorizing my mats, but X-wing especially has always seemed too fluid to me to really take advantage of that.  Someone certainly could, if they really put their mind to it, but I don't think it's an issue for anyone not actively trying to cheat it.

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An asteroid token cannot be placed at Range 1–2 of any edge of the play area or at Range 1 of another asteroid token.

I don't see how there can be much argue about this lol. 

 

Edge > (Range 2) to Asteroid  , Asteroid > (Range 1) to Asteroid 

 

Except that FFG published an article by Paul Heaver where he does considerably more than that.  So either they seem that they think it's fine, or that was one colossal editing error.

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Ah, interesting.  Frustrating to keep finding how much grey area there is.

 

Although, Buhallin.  TeamCov, I love your video effects for reports!

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Guys I truley did not want this to be a continuation of the thread that got blocked. If you have personal quarrels please take them elsewhere. Nowhere in my OP did I ask about warhammer 40k, fantasy, or even CHEATING. 

 

Seriously I almost had a stroke when I came back 3 hours later because I couldn't comprehend what was going on.

 

Go get a breath mint and chill.

 

 

Back to responses!

 

So the overall sense is that it's a grey area. It was stated that last years world champion was able to do what I was talking about and it was viewed by several TOs and all of the X-wing staff. If nothing came of it in the errata I cannot see it being against the rules to do. I'm going to have to say yes It's allowed and let the conversation drop here. Thanks for your input guys

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For gamers coming from other wargames, any form of unapproved measuring is outright cheating.  For example, if you have too much measuring tape out, or you're using a ruler, it's expected that you leave the extra behind your model.  If I'm moving 4" but my ruler measures 12", and I happen to put the full 12" ahead of my model, that's cheating.

Not in any war game I've ever played or seen played. About 10 years of 40k.

 

Really?  That's odd.  I learned that particular rule in Warhammer Fantasy, and you should have seen the flame wars over on the Warmachine forums when PP decided to allow unlimited measuring from your warcaster.  GW games were always the most restrictive on measuring, and some of the last to convert to allow premeasuring.

 

I won't guarantee that your experience is necessarily the minority, but here's at least one nice big citation for "It's cheating":

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/goatboys-40k-thoughts-how-people-cheat.html

 

Major GW-oriented blog, one of the better known bloggers, several years old, first thing on the "How People Cheat" list.  So it's probably not a fringe corner case that nobody's ever heard of ;)

 

It has also been my experience that table top games have either official or unofficial rules about measuring using at most the length you are attempting to move/shoot.

 

For example you have range 24 shooting, you put 25 inches on your tape measure so you can put the 24 right on the front of the model and see if the tip reaches the target.  You could NOT put the tip on the target and pull it back to your model.

 

It was considered 'legal but bad form' for two models next to eachother, one shoots at a target he clearly cannot hit, but in the process of laying out the tape measure to the target he can make very astute observations on the distance of a nearby model to different points along the same trajectory.

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Perhaps it is overstepping to think that many of the people who hold "measuring" to the strictest uses may also be the kind of people who get all kinds of "extras" for the game including custom star maps to play on.

 

 

I may have misunderstood you.  When you said "use a printed playfield that may just happen to have strategically placed reminders on it." it came off very much as a suggestion that those players would use those strategically placed reminders to take measurements they shouldn't.  If the point was simply to delineate the hardcore, my apologies for reading too much into it.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I've never found it useful to try and use printed marks to gauge anything anyway.  Maybe I just don't put enough time into memorizing my mats, but X-wing especially has always seemed too fluid to me to really take advantage of that.  Someone certainly could, if they really put their mind to it, but I don't think it's an issue for anyone not actively trying to cheat it.

 

 

I'd like to say it was just a misunderstanding.  I try to respect your post Buhallin and I hope you'd do the same so I was a little taken back if "filtered words" would need to be used.

 

The earlier posts basically mentioned laying out a 'hidden' grid within a starfield as an aid in maneuvering and decision making.  Granted X-Wing isn't played on a grid but if you could look and see where a "2 straight" will land you that makes it much easier to guess where a 2 band or 2 turn would land you.  It can also be an aid for figuring out what range you might end up in.

 

Seeing some disdain for precise asteroid measurements when placing them is because that would let asteroids serve as waypoints if you would.  After all, that asteroid as close to the corner as you can get it will be known to be a speed 5 move away from the edge.

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I'm obviously a minimalist when it comes to what you're allowed to measure.  To my mind, you can measure what you need to measure - specifically, is the asteroid within range 2 of the edge, or range 1 of another rock.  Nothing else should be allowed.

 

That said, people are taking some very permissive views on the use of templates before the game starts.  Unless/until FFG clarifies it, it seems that up until the first planning phase pretty much anything goes.  I don't see that using the range ruler to position your asteroids is any worse than using the maneuver templates to preplan your first moves.

 

 

I happen to agree with you on this one, I think placing like the OP is asking is tantamount to chatinig. He's using the template to preset cover in the game. I believe he should reconsider his placement idea. 

 

Now if he eyeballs it and happens to find the right position to place it without them then I don't see a problem. Honestly though if I were playing against someone and I could be so predictable that someone could see my plan such as that.. I'd take up new plans, cause someone is gonna get wise to it eventually. 

 

I play my squints very random, and even I don't know where they will end up even after I place my dial down. Someone is always making me think about boost and barrel rolls when the movement starts. 

 

also, just to clarify. I know this was a question, and I don't know if the OP has actually done what he proposes.. so I am not calling him a chater.. just the idea of the use of the range templates for this particular plan of positioning. 

as always one should use the rules and only measure the placement when the distance to another asteroid is in question.

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I would be of the mind that the *only* use of the range ruler would be to check the distance to meet the Distance 2 from the edge and the Distance 1 from any other asteriod. To do anything else is really bordering on cheating, or at least an *extremely* open interpretation of the rules to me.

So I guess you don't plan out your overall strategy, and just randomly place your asteroids?

Seeing as I can't place half of them, I'll put down the first one or two where I'd like them to roughly be. But then again, my squad builds aren't dependant on asteroid placement to win.

Then you have never played a game Vs an opponent who used those Astroids against you.

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Here is a FFG article written by X-Wing champion Paul Heaver discussing systematic asteroid placement:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4709

In this article there are diagrams that show asteroid placement strategies that go beyond determining range 1 to another asteroid. It also references placing asteroids at range 3-4 of an edge. While none of these examples discuss using the range ruler, isn't it implied?

Seeing as this thread isn't dead and given a night to sleep on this I'm going to bump this post I made yesterday that got buried.

The above link includes the Paul Heaver write up that talks about asteroid placement strategy. No it does not explicitly tell you to use your range ruler to measure these things but one has to acknowledge the practical application of such implies that you do use your range ruler to accomplish this.

If FFG did not intend for these tactics to be legal this story wouldn't be out there.

I'm sorry if this concept stomps on some people's idea of gamesmanship but based upon FFG's tournament rules and this story from Paul that they promoted it appears crystal clear that this is NOT CHEATING (caps for emphasis, not shouting) and that players that claim otherwise simply need to move on from this point and conduct themselves appropriately when this situation comes up the next time you are out to a tournament.

You don't have to like it but you do have to accept it because FFG has pretty clearly shown that this tactic is indeed acceptable and encouraged.

Deltmi, Nataris and Radarman5 like this

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Am I right in thinking you place asteroids before determining which side the the board is yours?  Is that different in tournaments?

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Am I right in thinking you place asteroids before determining which side the the board is yours?  Is that different in tournaments?

That is indeed different in tournaments.

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Am I right in thinking you place asteroids before determining which side the the board is yours?  Is that different in tournaments?

That is indeed different in tournaments.

 

How's it work in tournaments?  Player with initiative places first, knowing which side is theirs?

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Am I right in thinking you place asteroids before determining which side the the board is yours?  Is that different in tournaments?

That is indeed different in tournaments.

 

How's it work in tournaments?  Player with initiative places first, knowing which side is theirs?

 

The following steps must be performed before each game begins and may be 
performed before the TO officially announces the start of a tournament round:
 
-->1. Each player places his squad outside of the play area next to his assigned player edge.
 
2. Both players reveal all components in their squads and assign ID tokens to any ships that have a duplicate on the same team. If both players fielded squads from the same faction, ID tokens are assigned to all ships (see Mirror Matches on page
 
3). One player must exclusively display the white numerals of his ID tokens; the other player displays only the black 
numerals.
 
3. Each player shuffles his Damage deck thoroughly and presents it to his opponent. His opponent may shuffle and cut the deck if desired. 
 
4. Players determine initiative. The player with the lowest squad point total decides which player has initiative. If both players are tied with the same squad point total, toss a coin. The winner of the coin toss decides who has initiative.
 
--->5. The player with initiative places the six unique asteroid tokens from his core set next to the play area. He chooses one of these asteroid tokens and places it into the play area. Then, his opponent chooses one of the remaining asteroid tokens and places it into the play area. The players continue to alternate until all six tokens have been placed. An asteroid token cannot be placed at Range 1–2 of any edge of the play area or at Range 1 of another asteroid token.
 
-->6. Players place their ships in ascending order of pilot skill as per standard X-Wing rules.
 
7. Players activate shields and prepare any special components they may need. Players may not begin moving ships until the TO officially announces the start of the tournament round.
Edited by XAQT78

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Am I right in thinking you place asteroids before determining which side the the board is yours?  Is that different in tournaments?

That is indeed different in tournaments.

How's it work in tournaments?  Player with initiative places first, knowing which side is theirs?
Pretty much, yep.

On the topic, if you're measuring that much you're wasting the time of everyone else who just wants to get to the game. Try to be quick about it.

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I'm with Galactic Funk here. Clearly this is a none issue if FFG released an article from a world champion that insinuates strategic placement of asteroids using rulers.

How does it make sense that during ship placement you can use any and all templates but you can't for placing asteroids?

Personally, I feel certain players are adding a biased judgment based on there personal views of how other table tops games are played. This isnt warhammer.. What happens in another table top game ruleset has no influence on xwing.

FFG clearly doesn't think its cheating so I think people need to come to grasps with that and deal with it.

We are also talking about a game where it is "OK" to accidentally bump and therefore change the position and orientation of a game piece during play.

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I kinda don't see the big deal about measuring asteroids. The only thing that would bother me is if they took a long time doing it.

 

I personally try to place them in a way that will support how I plan to play that round, but I don't set up have a specific setup that I would use with my squad. To me, that would just make me too inflexible.

 

I mean, if I saw someone meticulously measuring their asteroid placement, that tells me that they have their first moves planned out exactly and they've practiced that setup over and over again. I know then that if I do something totally crazy and unexpected, it would probably mess up their carefully laid plans and throw them off a bit.

 

I personally practice with random asteroid placement and just try to get my ships through without hitting anything. After all, at the end of the day you only get to place 3 asteroids and I would rather have excellent spacial awareness instead of some set-in-stone opening move plan.

stegocent, Slambdogg and oneway like this

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Because Measuring Slowly is "Stalling" and [void of Ron White] Stalling is Wrong!

 

lol

 

I would pre-tourney practice cluster setup, I don't see benefit of measured placement 3 roids around the who play area :/

Edited by XAQT78

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We are also talking about a game where it is "OK" to accidentally bump and therefore change the position and orientation of a game piece during play.

It is?! :|

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We are also talking about a game where it is "OK" to accidentally bump and therefore change the position and orientation of a game piece during play.

It is?! :|

I believe he is referring to the practice of intentionally causing ships to overlap to make them end up in an orientation they wouldn't have been able end up in otherwise. Not physically bumping them with your hand if that's what you were wondering.

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Ships are sometimes moved accidentally or placed inexactly during the normal course of the game. A small margin of error is allowed in the position and orientation of ships in these situations so that the pace of the game is not unnecessarily affected. Players should not abuse this margin of error, and they must use the tools included with the game to be as accurate as possible. Using excessive force when placing components to intentionally move other components is expressly forbidden. In the event of a dispute, the TO has the final authority on ruling and can disqualify unsportsmanlike players.

 So, play nice & neat people.  :)

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Saying it is OK though implies doing it deliberately, which the rules text you quoted explicitly says it isn't. What it does say is that bumping things accidentally is unavoidable and players should chill about it.

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Saying it is OK though implies doing it deliberately, which the rules text you quoted explicitly says it isn't. What it does say is that bumping things accidentally is unavoidable and players should chill about it.

Agreed. It's usually pretty easy to tell if someone is abusing that. I'll be honest I have played against players that aren't as careful as I think they should be and it bugs me. But I've tried to let it go especially since I can be quite the Butcher myself. I'm far from perfect but I give it as good an effort as possible. That being said I try and be as chill ad possible simply for my own benefit. :-)

mazz0 likes this

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2013 Top 4, you see slight movements w/ placements, including die throws.  Only issue I would have is that if a die throw knocked over a ship.  Generally, less than like 1/8th inch accidental movement isn't hurting anything.

 

Would be cool if you could construct an asteroid trajectory course.  This would allow you to move it along a path to add more immersion to the game.

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I'm with Galactic Funk here. Clearly this is a none issue if FFG released an article from a world champion that insinuates strategic placement of asteroids using rulers.

How does it make sense that during ship placement you can use any and all templates but you can't for placing asteroids?

Personally, I feel certain players are adding a biased judgment based on there personal views of how other table tops games are played. This isnt warhammer.. What happens in another table top game ruleset has no influence on xwing.

FFG clearly doesn't think its cheating so I think people need to come to grasps with that and deal with it.

 

Well said.  Add me to the side that thinks that since FFG promoted asteroid-placement-as-a-skill then it must be allowed.  Paul's measuring is more than I'm going to get into, but to each his own.

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