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MyNeighbourTrololo

Let's Talk Bilbo

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Bilbo is great!  A little over-costed, but I still play him, especially in multi-player games.  I think Bilbo is much worse in solo, when you can't afford a high-threat low stat hero, even if he's netting you some extra cards (though I have run him alongside Leadermir and Denethor for a solid Gondor swarm deck).  In multi-player, I can run a mono-Lore deck (my favorite is Bilbo, Pippin and Mirlonde) that starts at a low threat (allowing me to get a Resourceful down first turn) and runs support for the rest of the team (card draw, healing, trapping, ranger bowing etc.).  One of my goals in running mono-Lore in multi-player is to pass card draw around to all the other players at the table, because the ability to provide card advantage for your team is valuable, especially for the Tactics player.  Biblo makes this easy to do.  While Beravor is also good, Biblo being a hobbit opens up a nice synergy with Lore Pippin.  And with a burning Brand and Protector of Lorien, he becomes a credible defender.  And, if you're really dedicated to helping the team, you could run Bilbo and Beravor (which I will try some time).

And maybe Bilbo is not "better" than Dain, per se, but I find him a lot more interesting to use and he can be a valuable part of multi-player strategy.

But, the whole point of this thread is "do I wish Bilbo had a lower threat cost?"  I would say yes, and 7 or even 8 would be appropriate.  I still play him as is though. 

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I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.

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Bilbo is cool! He give you card or free! you don't need to do nothing! and with attachments he can also be a good defender and quester. I the time of core set and first cycle he was really ok. But now sure we have many cards to choose so he value is much less now. But what you want from old small hobbit?!  

This. All you need is Arwen or Protector of Lorien (that card makes him a beast in solo mode!) and Burning Brand plus some Fast Hitchs. With these new high attack enemies he is not that good anymore, ok, but there's still Hobbit Cloak to give Bilbo some additional DEF. There was a time however, when Bilbo was one of the best. In early game, he's ok. In end mid and endgame, he simply rocks the boat.

 

I'm glad that Bilbo exists. He's one of the few heroes that favour solo players.. A lot of my best results were gained with Bilbo.

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I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.

 

Yes, I'm taking the best hero in the game because he perfectly proves my point. He is best hero in the game with 0 threat penalty. And Bilbo far from best with a 3 threat penalty? Can't you really catch my drift?

Edited by MyNeighbourTrololo

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I agree with Nerdmeister. One hero not only quests, defends or attack, there are more and more possibilities.

 

PD: and Fast Hitch :)

How could I forget fast hitch?!

Thanks for pointing that out to me :)

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I used Dain as most prominent example of a hero having great ability with no threat penalty at all. Which, as I stated previously, was released in the same cycle.

 

But you're basically taking arguably the best hero in the game - who is clearly broken and on a different level of power from almost every other hero (bar 1). This is just a terrible thing to do in terms of your argument as it makes it look weaker.

Every hero except one looks crap compared to Dain.

 

Yes, I'm taking the best hero in the game because he perfectly proves my point. He is best hero in the game with 0 threat penalty. And Bilbo far from best with a 3 threat penalty? Can't you really catch my drift?

 

 

No he doesn't. Dain is too good. This means that Dain is either undercosted (he could be threat 13 or 14 easily and still get played) or his ability is just too good to balance against the other heroes (which is my opinion).

Bilbo looks bad compared to Dain sure. So does Loreagon, As do all the other global boost heroes (Celebron, Boromir, Theodred). Basically everyone looks bad compared to Dain - so saying that Bilbo does too just doesn't prove anything except to bring your balance judgement into question.

You haven't responded to my argument that paying extra threat is usually for small benefits or large benefits with associated costs.

Bilbo is one of the only heroes in the game who can be hit by a cannot ready/exhaust affect and still help you because his ability is passive. 

Bilbo guarantees you access to his stats and the card draw unlike the only other hero that can guarantee card draw, Berevor. Now Berevor has better stats, 1 extra willpower, 1 extra attack and 2 extra hit points - for 1 extra threat. However Berevor can only give you 2 cards or 2 willpower, bilbo can give you 1 card and 1 willpower. As a defender (which is what Bilbo is best at) Bilbo can give you 1 card and 2 defence compared to 2 cards or 2 defence.

Also while Bilbo's card draw is no longer as good as it was (we have access to more card draw abilities than we used too) having the hobbit trait is better than ever. Bilbo can be targeted by 3 fast hitches, 2 ringmails,  boots of erebor, one hobbit cloak, a burning brand, bill the pony and help to power take no notice and receive halfling determination x3.

This extreme combo would give BIlbo 4 actions + 1 card a turn, 6 hitpoints, 4 defence vs enemies with a lower engagement than his threat and 6 vs enemies with a higher one, he could ignore all shadow cards and potentially have 12 defence, 7 attack and 7 wilpower.

Now yes, that requires you to put a lot of effort into bilbo (although in a hobbit deck that was red/purple/green you would probably run all those cards), realistically you wouldn't put all the fast hitches on bilbo or use the halfling derminations in one go like that. However as a defender you may well give bilbo all the other cards.

 You just can't get Berevor anywhere near that good - the hobbit trait is just better than the ranger one currently.

But really Bilbo's ability being completely passive - it doesn't even require an action window. If Bilbo is on the table you get the card - it's not possible to stop it, is so good. 

Maybe I could see him being threat 8 instead - anything lower than that and Bilbo would just be an auto-include. I think he still has a lot of advantages that justify threat 9 instead. I've never felt that bilbo wasn't pulling his weight.

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God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

How to define irony...?

 

Easily: Don't read someobdy's thread and strike an arguement with that person. :lol:

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God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

Hey, you cannot argue against game experience. You could hand me a confession of Bilbo telling me how awful he truly is, but as I have played him, played him multiple times, I know what he is capable of.  I'm not sure how useful Bilbo is in multiplayer, as I'm only playing him solo. But for us loners he's one of the best. He simply synergizes perfectly with his own sphere.

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God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

Hey, you cannot argue against game experience. You could hand me a confession of Bilbo telling me how awful he truly is, but as I have played him, played him multiple times, I know what he is capable of.  I'm not sure how useful Bilbo is in multiplayer, as I'm only playing him solo. But for us loners he's one of the best. He simply synergizes perfectly with his own sphere.

 

And that's the reason why I should and will stop the conversation. You're missing the point completely.

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God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

Hey, you cannot argue against game experience. You could hand me a confession of Bilbo telling me how awful he truly is, but as I have played him, played him multiple times, I know what he is capable of.  I'm not sure how useful Bilbo is in multiplayer, as I'm only playing him solo. But for us loners he's one of the best. He simply synergizes perfectly with his own sphere.

 

And that's the reason why I should and will stop the conversation. You're missing the point completely.

 

 

 

 

God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

Hey, you cannot argue against game experience. You could hand me a confession of Bilbo telling me how awful he truly is, but as I have played him, played him multiple times, I know what he is capable of.  I'm not sure how useful Bilbo is in multiplayer, as I'm only playing him solo. But for us loners he's one of the best. He simply synergizes perfectly with his own sphere.

 

And that's the reason why I should and will stop the conversation. You're missing the point completely.

 

 

Your point is that Bilbo should cost less threat because his ability is not worth it's cost, I think.

I think if Bilbo cost less threat he would be relatively too good.

I have advanced several arguments to examine Bilbo's power compared to other cards.

However ultimately we're all only providing evidence from play. You're basically arguing that you'd never play bilbo in multiplayer where you find him too weak - although I think you're doing a terrible job of arguing for your point because I think you're off topic too much.

For instance you basically argue that Bilbo is weak in multiplayer because of his ability ties to the first player token, but you didn't explain how you would change his threat in relation to this - only that it should be changed.

I mean I'm not clear on whether you think if your proposed change of (Bilbo's controller choosers a player) would then mean the ability was worth its 3 threat cost?

If you are arguing that then you must accept that in solo play his ability is worth 3 extra threat?

if you're not arguing that then is your point that it's not possible for this ability to be worth 3 threat? (i.e. one card a turn would never be worth that cost).

I would argue that a targeted +1 card a turn as a passive effect would be too good in two player, but maybe in 4 player it would help to keep bilbo more relevant. However I think that balancing him at 2 is more important than at 4.

Also the absolutely strongest argument for Bilbo being a weak hero is the value of his new ally card - in much the same way that Faramir's ally is very strong so it's hard to justify his hero (increasingly hard in more players where you can guarantee someone running faramir ally). This is a problem for all heroes that also have good ally cards though.

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God, you're tough. I'm like speaking with a wall. Not going to waste my time further.

Hey, you cannot argue against game experience. You could hand me a confession of Bilbo telling me how awful he truly is, but as I have played him, played him multiple times, I know what he is capable of.  I'm not sure how useful Bilbo is in multiplayer, as I'm only playing him solo. But for us loners he's one of the best. He simply synergizes perfectly with his own sphere.

 

And that's the reason why I should and will stop the conversation. You're missing the point completely.

 

Hmmmh, you point was that Bilbo's threat should be lowered. I think I got that. My point is that he is perfectly ok for solo play. Your first post has been reasonable, but there were certain points I disagree with:

 

- it's not diffcult to boost Bilbo's stats; his ability helps to get the cards that you need

- you completely ignored his Hobbit trait and his sphere

- you based your critics on a 3-4 player game, which should never be the basis to balance a card in general

- you ignore there are cards that specifically reward a large number of players, so it's perfectly ok to have at least some cards that favour a small number

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-other heroes are not that hard to boost, it's not the reason to boost starting threat by 3;

-no trait in history has granted anybody a 3 threat overcharge;

-the cards in general should try to maintain balance between all numbers of players;

-and again, that's an extremely bad excuse for the starting threat overcharge of that size.

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The question is not : "is he worth playing ?" Of course he is worth playing ! Depending on the cards, you want to play, and what you are expecting from the game.

 

The real question is : "is he better, even or worst compare to other heros ?"

And here, we are starting to compare apples to carrots. But let's try :

 

My only point of comparison is the uniqueness of his ability : Bilbo ability (eg drawing) is quite common especially in Lore sphere. You can obtain quite similar effect (Gleowyn) through cards you are playing. Nothing comparable to Aragorn (Lo) or Grima who provide such unique ability in their sphere. I would have personnaly much better understood a big gap between stats and threat cost for this 2 Heros.

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I love that old fart and he is usually splashed into my deck when I need green playing solo or two handed

 

The biggest challenge now is just deciding what to do about that awesome doppelganger

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My only point of comparison is the uniqueness of his ability : Bilbo ability (eg drawing) is quite common especially in Lore sphere. You can obtain quite similar effect (Gleowyn) through cards you are playing. 

Though you do not start with Gleowine on the table; you need to draw him first and then he costs 2 resources to play.

Bilbo is ready to contribute from round 1, giving you an edge from the get-go.

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What I would like to see with old Bilbo is a scaling mechanic, for instance: "Reduce Bilbo's starting threat by 1 for each other player."  That way he would maintain his (I believe) justified cost in solo but become more appealing in multiplayer (specifically 3 or 4 player, where you get less out of his ability).

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What I would like to see with old Bilbo is a scaling mechanic, for instance: "Reduce Bilbo's starting threat by 1 for each other player."  That way he would maintain his (I believe) justified cost in solo but become more appealing in multiplayer (specifically 3 or 4 player, where you get less out of his ability).

 

This may be a very good suggestion for an errata. Although I think it should be -1 threat for the 3rd player and -2 threat for the 4th. It might be neater to just say -1 threat per additional player. 

I find that Bilbo is completely playable in 2 player but I can see how he is less appealing at 4. (although that said in 4 player you're guaranteed to have threat reduction so I suppose it won't be as bad if he has 3 extra threat - but that argument does apply to any heroes).

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