Counterplot the opponent's final plot

[Bomb 66]

What happens when you cancel an opponent's last revealed plot with this? Does moving it to the used pile immediately refresh your plot deck? I'm thinking that this event will either do nothing or it will give the opponent access to their entire plot deck again so that they can reveal a new plot.

Thoughts?

 

Right now I can't find any rules to support either scenario, so I think without a rules modification, this plot will leave the opponent without a revealed plot and without a refreshed plot deck.

 

I am pretty sure that a ruling will be made to keep this from happening, but I just wanted to check with the community to see if they have any ideas or can find any rules support that will keep this scenario from happening. 

[-Istaril 157]

I guess since I posted the same on Agotcards, but this is a better place for discussion, I'll repost below:

 

As per the current timing structure, it seems like using counterplot on an oppontent's last plot would leave them either a) stuck with their before-last plot for the rest of the game or b) (If you interpret the following FAQ loosely) without a plot until the next plot phase. Very interesting.

 

(3.34) Plot Rotation When a player's plot deck is empty, that player's used plot cards move from his or her used pile to his or her plot deck as a passive game effect of resolving the revealed plot.

Edited April 24, 2014 by -Istaril

[ktom 598]

Take your reasoning to its full extent, -Istaril:

1. Plots are recycled from "used" to "plot deck" passively when the final plot resolves.

2. Counterplot cancels your reveal of the plot. It's effects never initiate/activate.

3. Since the effects never initiate/activate, they never resolve.

4. Since they never resolve, the passive game effect to recycle your plots is never "triggered" and your plot deck remains empty for the rest of the game.

 

I think we can assume that isn't how this works?

 

 

Anyway, I would suggest two possible outcomes:

 

#1 - Working by the "letter" of what we have:

- Your "currently revealed" plot doesn't move to the used plot pile until a new plot is revealed.

- Counterplot stops your opponent from revealing the final plot - so the "current" plot from last round hasn't moved to the used pile yet.

- Since your opponent cannot reveal a new plot from an empty deck, that part of Counterplot "fizzles" (didn't we go through something similar to that with Betrayal at the Wall as the seventh plot, or using Bran in the "Plot" window created by Dragonstone Port between choosing and revealing the final plot?)

- The plot from last round is still your "current" plot when you get to resolving effects.

- After that effect resolves "again" in that part of the window (probably unsuccessfully, or just continuing its effect), your plot deck recycles

 

#2 - Preserving the old "plots recycle when you need to reveal a plot from an empty plot deck" in addition to 3.34:

- Counterplot stops your opponent from revealing the final plot - so the "current" plot from last round hasn't moved to the used pile yet.

- Counterplot's "reveal a new plot" doesn't "fizzle," but instead forces a recycle of the used pile under the old "plots recycle when you need to reveal a plot from an empty deck" rule.

- Your opponent, therefore, has access to all plots (except the "round six" plot that is still the current plot), and reveals one of those. 

- Continue as normal.

 

 

My guess is that #1 is the way to go - and the way I would rule as TO until we have something official - because my sense is that FFG has made other rulings (related to Betrayal and Dragonstone Port) treating 3.34 as the only mechanism by which plots recycle.

[-Istaril 157]

I agree with #1, that's how I would choose to rule it as well for your reasoning, and that it seems consistent with past rulings. It does however involve an assumption at the last step (After that effect resolves "again" in that part of the window (probably unsuccessfully, or just continuing its effect), your plot deck recycles) that isn't specified by any precedent, and might well require an FAQ entry.

[ktom 598]

that isn't specified by any precedent,

 

Sure it is.

 

What happens when you reveal a "continuous effect" plot rather than a "when revealed" as your 7th plot? It would be active from the moment it is revealed and does not "resolve" at any point during the action window. So either "just continuing its effect" when you have an empty plot deck is enough to initiate the plot recycling passive game effect, or you can only recycle your plot deck if your last plot is a "when revealed" plot.

 

Has everyone who has ever revealed Power of Blood as their 7th plot illegally recycled their plot deck?

[Bomb 66]

Thanks for that explanation ktom.  I honestly didn't even think about the previously revealed plot remaining revealed as part of that scenario.  That is a very acceptable outcome as it doesn't appear to break the game state like I was worried about.

 

Cheers!

[-Istaril 157]

 

that isn't specified by any precedent,

 

Sure it is.

 

What happens when you reveal a "continuous effect" plot rather than a "when revealed" as your 7th plot? It would be active from the moment it is revealed and does not "resolve" at any point during the action window. So either "just continuing its effect" when you have an empty plot deck is enough to initiate the plot recycling passive game effect, or you can only recycle your plot deck if your last plot is a "when revealed" plot.

 

Has everyone who has ever revealed Power of Blood as their 7th plot illegally recycled their plot deck?

 

 

Well, I had interpreted as a passive to the resolution of revealing your last plot, not a passive to the fact that your last plot is (currently) revealed.

 

You're right in that the FAQ entry actually states that it's a passive to resolving the effects of your plot - but because I'm not clear on what that means with regards to plots whose effects don't 'resolve' (eg, a pinned When Revealed? A Mutal X plot? A plot whose effects were cancelled? A constant effect like Power of Blood), I assumed, probably incorrectly, that the FAQ entry referred to resolving the revealing of the plot, not resolving the effect of the plot.

Edited April 24, 2014 by -Istaril

[ktom 598]

 

Well, I had interpreted as a passive to the resolution of revealing your last plot, not a passive to the fact that your last plot is (currently) revealed.

 

 

"This is a passive game effect of resolving the revealed plot" means resolving the plot effect, not to revealing your last plot or to having your last plot "currently revealed." Remember that the point of the ruling is to make it clear that all your other City and River plots are in your used pile when you are resolving plot #7. 

 

You'd expect the FAQ to be worded more like Golden Tooth Mines (e.g., "This is a passive game effect to revealing that last plot") in order to have the recycle initiated by the "resolution" of revealing your last plot.

[Ldgs 1]

As an absolute newby to this game / forum feel free to take this post as only my humble opinion and no more.

 

My brief understanding is as follows:

 

Final Plot card revealed

Counterplot played

 

As stated on the card:  

'cancel the revealing of that plot and move it to its owner’s used pile.'

 

 

'That player must choose and reveal a new plot card.' 

 

My emphasis on must.

 

Core rules state:

 

If this was the last card in your plot deck, return all your previously played plots (except the one just revealed) to your plot deck after your revealed plot has taken effect

 

My understanding is your 'used pile' consists of all of your plot cards including the last one (Counterplot states move it to your used pile, even tho it is unrevealed it's still played and the card overrides rules etc)

In order to reveal a new plot you have the choice of all of your plots including the one just cancelled (seems unfair but hey, it's The Game of Thrones and you've had plenty other opportunities to play Counterplot  )

 

A simplistic view perhaps, but one which prevents my head from constantly exploding passively 

[ktom 598]

A simplistic view perhaps, but one which prevents my head from constantly exploding passively 

 

With the exception of the fact that the plot from last round that you tried to replace with the cancelled plot has not actually been replaced yet (and therefore not available as a choice for your "must choose and reveal" attempt), your interpretation is definitely the "intuitive" one. It is, undoubtedly, the one that makes sense from a "natural flow of play" point of view. 

 

And it may well be correct. I honestly think it would be the best solution.

 

What the discussion above is really getting at is that there is a technicality in the rules that makes this "natural, intuitive" resolution incorrect. And it's a technicality that has been inflexible in the past because of strict adherence to the timing structure. So we're unsure which way FFG will go.

[Ldgs 1]

Aha .... Am back, after looking at the actual card text after a paragraph in FAQ 5 caught me eye

 

With the exception of the fact that the plot from last round that you tried to replace with the cancelled plot has not actually been replaced yet (and therefore not available as a choice for your "must choose and reveal" attempt)

 

 

Counterplot states: After an opponent reveals a plot card ......

 

FAQ 5 (2.3) Plot States:

Unless prevented by card effects, a player's revealed plot card moves to his or her used pile immediately whenever a new plot card is revealed from that player's plot deck

 

Therefore imho the plot from the last round should be available (The final plot card is revealed then cancelled, then put into the used pile, therefore all plot cards should be available to choose from)

 

Your final paragraph:

What the discussion above is really getting at is that there is a technicality in the rules that makes this "natural, intuitive" resolution incorrect. And it's a technicality that has been inflexible in the past because of strict adherence to the timing structure. So we're unsure which way FFG will go.

 

 

Seems to serve to add confusion, again imho, av been led to understand the card text overrides rules.

The timing structure seems to have been blown out of the water by the fact Counterplot states the plot card is revealed then cancelled, an anomaly in itself a believe?

 

So maybe, just maybe, FFG worded the card in such a way that it actually works like they wanted it to.

My suggestion would be to use Counterplot before the final plot card

Edited May 17, 2014 by Ldgs

[ktom 598]

Counterplots does say, "After an opponent reveals a plot card...", but then it GOES ON to say, "...to cancel the revealing of that plot." By canceling the "revealing of that plot," it means the plot was never revealed successfully. Your argument here is that the cancel stopped the plot reveal from ever happening, but it still happened enough to push the current plot into the used pile."

That would be like saying when you cancel a kill effect, the cancel stops the kill from ever happening, but it still happened enough to discard all power and attachments from the character that was (not) killed.

That's not how cancels work. By canceling the "revealing of that plot," you also cancel any consequence of that plot being revealed - like moving the previous plot to the used pile. So it stays in the "current plot" state.

[Ldgs 1]

1st, apologies, a should really put me  views across as questions as me knowledge is nowhere near as comprehensive as your own.

 

Anyway, while am sure all of what you say is undoubtedly true, al labour the point one more time before getting on and enjoying the game.

 

In theFAQ paragraph  .....

player's revealed plot card moves to his or her used pile immediately whenever a new plot card is revealed from that player's plot deck

 

My emphasis on immediately.

 

Soooooo, here’s me timing structure scenario ............ the new plot card is revealed, the old plot card is placed immediately (a take to mean before anything else can happen?) into the used pile (no moribund state or such), Counterplot is played and the game moves on.

So could this mean the card works naturally, intuitively and within the timing structure?

 

A can’t recall the word immediately being used in a kill effect, or anywhere else for that matter, but am still at the point of using only the core set and major expansions with deck construction a long way off?

 

My understanding of the kill effect is that characters aren’t killed immediately but go moribund, giving ample opportunity for the card to still be cancelled, used, triggered, knelt etc. (fatally wounded but time enough to react?)

 

Mind you, a no longer think me simplistic answer is.

 

And one final question, to all who read / reply to this is – How do you play Counterplot?

[ktom 598]

Soooooo, here’s me timing structure scenario ............ the new plot card is revealed, the old plot card is placed immediately (a take to mean before anything else can happen?) into the used pile (no moribund state or such), Counterplot is played and the game moves on.

So could this mean the card works naturally, intuitively and within the timing structure?

 

What you may be missing is that everything in this game follows the following basic timing structure:

 

1. Initiate

2. Cancel opportunity

3. Resolve

 

So, when you "reveal" a new plot, you pick it and begin the reveal in #1, but it is not actually and finally revealed until #3. So "whenever a new plot is revealed from that player's plot deck" doesn't actually happen until #3 - meaning that anything that happens "immediately" as a result of the plot being revealed will not happen until #3, either.

 

Counterplot is an interrupt effect, played in #2, moving the plot you choose to reveal in #1 into the used pile right then and there in #2. Since "immediately" is something that happens in #3 when revealing the plot is resolved successfully (not initiated successfully in #1), Counterplot will beat moving your current plot to the used pile. That means the plot hit with Counterplot actually hits the used pile before the plot it was trying to replace - because it's attempt to replace it was unsuccessful.