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Punning Pundit

No Star Destroyers, Please

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*Ahem* I have a completely ludicrous, unheard of, radical idea here:

Why don't we stop arguing and trust in the Force FFG to do what they feel is right. If they found a way to put the ISD in the game, more power to them. If not, they have a good reason why they didn't.

Because people who admit to wanting a Star Destroyer are treated like idiots or criminals when they express that they do. So much as saying I want one gets people jumping down your throat. It's like everyone saying Nay is afraid FFG will force them to buy one.

But my points have been made. The people who say nay continue to claim any number of difficulties as reasons not to make one instead of as obstacles to overcome on the part of FFG. I trust FFG. I trust my own intuition on the viability. And I will pay if the product gets me excited enough. Same as just about everyone here, when it proves that FFG knows what they are doing and can make a playable product. This happens in every game community. It's depressing how often people look for reasons not to do something cool that doesn't hurt anybody. And depressing how many people seem physically hurt by the potential for a Star Destroyer. I just don't see what could possibly be so awful. Worst case. It's overpowered. Second worst case it's underpowered to the point of unplayability. Neither one makes owning a 2 foot long model of a Star Destroyer not worth the cost on its own.

I just don't want the thing either way in X-Wing. Either they have to shrink the thing down from the current scale it will look funny. They make it to scale and the price would be outrageous. Now if they release a capital ship version with it own system it would work fine. I still have to say even in that case I'm not buying in. One miniatures game at a time is enough for me.

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Hell, I get how bad game design can hurt. But if it's well designed, and fun. How does it hurt you?

 

The argument is that an ISD that fits on a game table cannot be well designed, period. It fitting on the table makes it poorly designed since, as mentioned by Revanchist, the immense size is part of the appeal.

 

Similarly, anything balanced for play at ~300 points isn't going to be well designed either, since an ISD is supposed to have something like 1100 points of TIEs on board, ready to launch, and that's not counting the tractor beams, turbolasers, etc. Again, that immense threat is why the ISDs are so evocative.

 

You can put lipstick on a pig, and racing stripes on a Yugo, but neither would be any fun. 

 

As for the players who just want an OP beatstick I-WIN button, I don't think that they are good for the game.

Shouldn't there be some level oft if it's well done that's ok?

I get that people don't feel it can feel big fitting on the table. I don't buy that. It's possible that FFG can't manage to balance, or to manage an effective Price Tag. But the scale of the ship... It always has, and always will feel like an excuse not to try so nobody can be dissapointed.

Beyond that, if you label it Victory Class it looks exactly the same, but should not be able to swallow a Corvette Whole to begin with.

 

 

Here in lies the problem, you seem to think a dumbed down version is "well done'", it can't be because it's to small, the scale doesn't work for that.. but you refuse to see the logic of anyone opposing you. Honestly, it's a fan boy dream you have and you refuse to acknowledge any other arguments to the contrary. You are so enamored of having one that you can't see how stupid an idea it is.. that's it.. that's the issue... stubbornness doesn't win you the argument, it makes you look silly.. 

 

and I am done with this argument... An ISD in this game is ridiculous.. PERIOD. 

 

My apologies for the rudeness of this, but this argument is .. has.. become ludicrous... 

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I don't think they should be playable in-game.

As an off-table part of a scenario, maybe, or even an on-table part of a scenario - I'm looking at doing a mini campaign day where the final mission involves attacking a destroyer, but the difference is that said destroyer has already expended its fighter complement and is mostly disabled before the fighters arrive.

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This happens in every game community. It's depressing how often people look for reasons not to do something cool that doesn't hurt anybody. And depressing how many people seem physically hurt by the potential for a Star Destroyer. I just don't see what could possibly be so awful.

That mindset bothers me as well, but, to be fair, a horribly out of scale model can kind of tarnish the game for everyone. Meaning, even if the players who are bothered by it don't use it, they're still going to have to see it if they play at events or at a game store with players who don't feel the same way. And I think it's fair to say that's relevant because the scale has clearly been important to FFG, or they wouldn't have been double-checking ships like the HWK-290, and I think, consciously or not, it's important to a lot of players. It helps make the game look consistent and high quality, not just some random chaotic assortment of ships and sizes that more resembles a collection of various toys over the years than one cohesive game. Part of the charm of this game is that it comes in scale and with an accurate paint job, rather than the heavy modding other miniatures games promote (not that there's something wrong with that, just that it's not the direction X-Wing chose).

 

That said, I really want a Star Destroyer, and I've also felt like I can't really talk about it without getting slammed down. Scale's important to me, it's one thing I really respect about the game so far, but... the huge ships have already bent the rules and... well, the Star Destroyer is simply too iconic. If we're going to have huge ships for both factions (and all signs point to that being likely), there's no way you can pass up the Star Destroyer. It is the huge Imperial ship. I don't care what kind of smaller, capital craft you can find in the Expanded Universe. I might have even heard of it. That doesn't make it iconic. The Tantive is iconic, and the transport was at least key to the opening of Empire Strikes Back. But I can't think of anything other than the Star Destroyer that would fit the Empire (well, there's the Super Star Destroyer and the Death Star, but those are definitely too big for models).

 

I can't say how likely it is, but I think I'd lean toward it being possible, and not just because I want it. So far, FFG has been prioritizing movie ships. We got all of the normal movie ships before we got any Expanded Universe stuff, and so far the huge ships are continuing that. Yes, two huge ships isn't enough to prove a pattern, but I think the overarching trends are. I don't think FFG is going to want the first huge Imperial ship to be something most people haven't heard of, just because it's small enough to squeeze into the scale. They seem the type that runs into something cool and makes a gap for it, and not the kind that has a gap and searches for something to fill it.

 

Now, maybe, if they did it, I'd regret it. Maybe I'd see it on tables and cringe at how much scaling it down really does ruin it for me. But if we can't have a Star Destroyer as a huge Imperial ship, I don't think we should have huge Imperial ships at all. Epic Play for them can just be Death Star trench terrain with mission parameters or something.

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How iconic is a Star Destroyer?

 

Opening Scene in Return of the Jedi

Star Destroyer moves down the screen, moving towards the Death Star. From it, a shuttle and two Ties and fly off towards the Death Star, cutting to a scene where the shuttle and Ties are moving "towards camera" with the Star Destroyer looking as impressive as always behind.

 

Opening scene in Empire Strikes Back

Camera view descends to the sight of a Star Destroyer moving "towards camera". View turns to underneath the Star Destroyer where a trio of droids fall down and one goes to the surface of Hoth.

 

Opening scene in New Hope

Why explain it when I can just show it...

 

 

By now you should know that I agree with how iconic the Star Destroyer is. You should also know how much I love the ship and would very much like to buy a model of one. However, I feel the video also shows how terrible it would be to scale down the Star Destroyer...

 

...that thing is MASSIVE!

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Agree with all of that MajorTom - the Star Destroyer is one of Star Wars most instantly recognisable and iconic ships, and instantly-recognisable and iconic elements are part of what made the original trilogy such a huge success (and the prequel trilogy somewhat less so).

 

That said, I still don't want to see a Star Destroyer in this game, or on my tabletop.  If FFG produce a Star Destroyer model that's out-of-scale enough to be actually carried around - say two or three foot long - I wouldn't begrudge other players using it of course...

 

...so long as they field it on a separate table, twenty odd feet away.  Maybe then it might look appropriately sized, and have the proper impact on the game.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands. The Epic Tournament rules are now revealed and you don't like the idea of participating in the event of facing a Star Destroyer? Then don't. Simple as that.

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands. The Epic Tournament rules are now revealed and you don't like the idea of participating in the event of facing a Star Destroyer? Then don't. Simple as that.

 

We WANT to fight Imperial Ships. I want them to be divided in port and starboard, and unleash devastating volleys of fire. I want to tear a Gallifrey tranport apart with my turbolasers!

 

But I want to do it on a ship that makes sense, not with a ship that couldn't even turn around on an epic play map. The ImpStar isn't the only Imperial ship out there - the CR90 is a mere corvette, so it makes sense to choose another corvette, a destroyer, or frigate. Not a great big Capital Ship.

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands. The Epic Tournament rules are now revealed and you don't like the idea of participating in the event of facing a Star Destroyer? Then don't. Simple as that.

 

Fortunately it won't come to that.  There's no way a Star Destroyer can be shoehorned into the existing game format - and that includes the Epic game rules - without it not actually being a Star Destroyer in the first place.

 

We may eventually see something that looks like a Star Destroyer that's been zapped by the shrink ray from Honey I Shrunk The Kids and plays like a toothless, ineffectual parody of a Star Destroyer, or possibly a two-dimensional image of one floating in the far-distant background on a gaming tile or mat to provide a nice bit of scenery, but an actual, playable, usable, true-to-scale and true-to-power level Star Destroyer?  Not in this game.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands. The Epic Tournament rules are now revealed and you don't like the idea of participating in the event of facing a Star Destroyer? Then don't. Simple as that.

 

We WANT to fight Imperial Ships. I want them to be divided in port and starboard, and unleash devastating volleys of fire. I want to tear a Gallifrey tranport apart with my turbolasers!

 

But I want to do it on a ship that makes sense, not with a ship that couldn't even turn around on an epic play map. The ImpStar isn't the only Imperial ship out there - the CR90 is a mere corvette, so it makes sense to choose another corvette, a destroyer, or frigate. Not a great big Capital Ship.

 

 

He gets it

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands.

Clearly you don't get it.

It's not nearly as simple as you make it out. It's not like this is a solo player video game or something. If FFG were to make a ISD it means the following...

It means we're unlikely to see a ship that actually fits the game correctly.

It means FFG is fine with throwing scale out the window.

It means FFG is willing to start down the Pay to Win road.

It means FFG is willing to consider sales as being more important then balance.

It means FFG doesn't care about canon any longer.

It Means the Epic Tournament is now off limits to anyone who can't stand to see a nerfed ISD.

If it were a matter of the ISD or nothing, then I might feel differently about things. But there are a ton of other ships they can use that will work in this game without having to break a ISD.

So if they make a ISD, then it's a net loss for the X-Wing community, something else like the Vigil on the other hand means that we get something that works for everyone. But hey, feel free to keep trying to force your fanboy dreams on everyone else, regardless of the damage it does to the game and community... As long as you get your ISD that's all that matters right?

Edited by VanorDM

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I really don't get this whole "please don't build this ship" thing. Nobody is forcing anyones hands.

It means FFG doesn't care about canon any longer.

 

 

Lol when I read the above all I could think of was "I've killed Luke and Vader at least a dozen times and Dutch is alive and kicking"  :P

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It means FFG is fine with throwing scale out the window.

Already done. Too late. The Tantive is half size and not to scale with the transport. They have set precedent for finding a size for ships that fits with the board.

It means FFG is willing to start down the Pay to Win road.

Only if it's better than everything else.

It means FFG is willing to consider sales as being more important then balance.

Only if it's better than everything else.

It means FFG doesn't care about canon any longer.

They already have scaled back the powerlevel of many ships in favor of balance. Pick one, balance or canon, games cannot have both as is.

It Means the Epic Tournament is now off limits to anyone who can't stand to see a nerfed ISD.

They run this risk with every ship. It'll be a particularly small sect that holds their convictions about scale that far, and dare I say, anybody who cares that much about scale is either being overly stubborn or may need to re-evaluate how much they care about this game, because there are a infinite things worse than an undersized Star Destroyer plaguing our planet. Getting upset over an in game model... Well frankly. It's silly. I mean, kids don't even complain about scale. Only hyper obsessive adult fans. As a kid I had a toy Star Destroyer barely bigger than an X-wing. It was awesome for being a Star Destroyer.

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@VanorDM - I don't think he's trying to force his "fanboy dreams on everyone else, regardless of the damage it does to the game and community..."

 

The fact is, in just this thread alone, I have seen a lot of you argue against the ISD.  I get it, I really do.  It would be broken beyond anything we could possibly imagine.

 

But, I have also seen a lot of people say that they really want this in THEIR game.  Is that YOUR game?  Obviously not, so no harm, no foul there.  If YOU don't want it, YOU don't need to buy it, or participate in games that include it.

 

I would love an ISD.  I would love it to sit on my desk so I could look in amazement at it.  Would I play with it in game?  No.  But just because I don't want to play with it doesn't mean it couldn't be made.

 

If anything, I think you are forcing YOUR fanboy desires on the rest of the community because of some preconceived fear that this will forever ruin the game.

 

An ISD hasn't been announced yet.  Why are we even getting our panties in a bunch about it?  I trust FFG in whatever they do.  Have a little faith in the Force my friend - I don't imagine they'll let you down.

 

I want one, but it doesn't mean I'll use one - I'll use it more as a conversation piece.  The quality of FFG's miniatures is wonderful.  I'd love to see them try their hand at something like the ISD, MC-90, Interdictor, Victory, Nebulon B et al.

 

Give us all some credit.  If they DO decide to release an ISD, trust that the community will adapt to it.

 

Life doesn't hinge on it's release one way or another, and the world will keep on spinning.

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@VanorDM - I don't think he's trying to force his "fanboy dreams on everyone else, regardless of the damage it does to the game and community..."

I normaly agree with most of what he's said. But he's said in this tread more then once that things like scale and balance aren't as important to him as getting a ISD. If that doesn't mean he doesn't care then I don't know what does.

 

If YOU don't want it, YOU don't need to buy it, or participate in games that include it.

That's a rather naive statement...

If I wish to play in epic games at a LGS or in a tournament, then yes I do have to play in games that include it. Unless they put out a rule that lets me tell the other guy what he can and can't play with.

I also have to deal with what ever upgrades and other cards they release with the set.

So yes, if they were to release a ISD it does very much effect me, because this isn't a SP video game, it's a miniatures game. Everything released effects the meta as a whole, that means it effects me.

But again what's wrong with the Vigil? It offers pretty much everything a ISD for the game would. But unlike the ISD is already the correct size and firepower level for the game as it exists.

So if they release a ISD they harm a lot of us by putting out something massively broken. Or they release a Vigil which gives pretty much everyone what they want, unless you simply can not accept anything other then a ship named Star Destroyer.

Edited by VanorDM

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@VanorDM - I don't think he's trying to force his "fanboy dreams on everyone else, regardless of the damage it does to the game and community..."

I normaly agree with most of what he's said. But he's said in this tread more then once that things like scale and balance aren't as important to him as getting a ISD. If that doesn't mean he doesn't care then I don't know what does. 

If YOU don't want it, YOU don't need to buy it, or participate in games that include it.

That's a rather naive statement...If I wish to play in epic games at a LGS or in a tournament, then yes I do have to play in games that include it. Unless they put out a rule that lets me tell the other guy what he can and can't play with.I also have to deal with what ever upgrades and other cards they release with the set.So yes, if they were to release a ISD it does very much effect me, because this isn't a SP video game, it's a miniatures game. Everything released effects the meta as a whole, that means it effects me.But again what's wrong with the Vigil? It offers pretty much everything a ISD for the game would. But unlike the ISD is already the correct size and firepower level for the game as it exists.So if they release a ISD they harm a lot of us by putting out something massively broken. Or they release a ISD which gives pretty much everyone what they want, unless you simply can not accept anything other then a ship named Star Destroyer.
And again. I care about Balance. I see it as an obstacle FFG can overcome though. I don't care that it isn't to scale so long as it is significantly bigger than the CR-90.

And again, every ship released has the issue people may quit the game because of it. Lots of people said they would never buy or play against EU ships as well. This is a common trend in gaming. Every set a bunch of people leave the MTG community because they don't like something about the new set. Every time a D&D version change happens 90% of players whine about the new edition. If FFG lets the idea of people leaving the game because of what they put out get to them more than the money they make off of the game, or the potential of that concept in the game, they are not running an efficient business. They have 0 obligation to hold to anyones vision of the game other than their own. A Star Destroyer, if balanced properly and at an appropriate price rate, will make them money and garner attention to the game. Yes, it will put a handful of players scale nausea tingling, but so did EU ships. Gamers are a fickle bunch prone to naysaying and complaining about their hobbies. It's part of really caring about something. But in the end, it only hurts your game as much as adding YV ships would hurt others. I bet most people are grown up enough to deal.

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I would love an ISD.  I would love it to sit on my desk so I could look in amazement at it.  Would I play with it in game?  No.  But just because I don't want to play with it doesn't mean it couldn't be made.

 

I want one, but it doesn't mean I'll use one - I'll use it more as a conversation piece.  The quality of FFG's miniatures is wonderful.  I'd love to see them try their hand at something like the ISD, MC-90, Interdictor, Victory, Nebulon B et al.

 

 

That is how I feel.

 

Do I want it in a game, either in mine or an opponents list? No way!

Do I want it to buy a model to take pride of place on a desk or shelf? Yes, now! Gimme, gimme, gimme!

 

-----rest not aimed at you but to everyone in general-----

 

I object to a model "in the game" for the same reason Aminar and others are so determined to have it in the game, WE LOVE THE STAR DESTROYER. My love for it moves me to say I wouldn't like it because it would be too small and not as powerful as I feel it should be. Aminar is willing to sacrifice "appearance" and "power" just to include it in the games.

 

Two people. Two different points of view. One motive...the fact that the Star Destroyer is awesome.

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the fact that the Star Destroyer is awesome.

I don't think any of us hate the ISD, in fact half or more of the reason I don't want to see it in the game is because I think it's "disrespectful" to the ship to nerf and shrink it like that.

A Vigil or something like that I'd buy without thinking twice. A ISD, the only way I'd buy one is if it were $125 or less and had some truly amazing stuff for other ships, because the only thing it would do is sit on my shelf.

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"I maintain that the effectiveness of the Star Destroyer stems from not only its massive firepower, but from its size. When citizens look at a Star Destroyer and then compare it to the craft which might be mustered to attack it, they have a tendency to dismiss such a notion as suicidal rather than approach the problem tactically."
―Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin

 

https://www.facebook.com/theimperialfleet/photos/a.464157823641927.105167.462605397130503/638964192827955/?type=1&theater

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the fact that the Star Destroyer is awesome.

I don't think any of us hate the ISD, in fact half or more of the reason I don't want to see it in the game is because I think it's "disrespectful" to the ship to nerf and shrink it like that.

A Vigil or something like that I'd buy without thinking twice. A ISD, the only way I'd buy one is if it were $125 or less and had some truly amazing stuff for other ships, because the only thing it would do is sit on my shelf.

 

 

Exactly!

 

No hate, just two different reactions motivated by the same love of the Star Destroyer. Neither side right or wrong.

 

My two "game" ships of choice are the Vigil and Customs Corvette. Gozanti coming a close, and more likely, third. But I didn't know what these ships were until I came here, hence the reasoning that the Star Destroyer "should" be part of the game because it IS the Empire huge ship. Everyone recognizes it.

 

:blink: That's why this keeps going round and round but nobody is convincing anybody. Because both points of view are valid.

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So, for the sake of the argument... If FFG releases a model that is decidedly resembling the Star Destroyer, but with less guns, and less boom boom, and they pack it to us under the 'Imperial Space Corvette" label... The scale-crusaders will be happy to buy it, regardless of the price?

Edited by Jehan Menasis

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So, for the sake of the argument... If FFG releases a model that is decidedly resembling the Star Destroyer, but with less guns, and less boom boom, and they pack it to us under the 'Imperial Space Corvette" label... The scale-crusaders will be happy to buy it, regardless of the price?

Does the game's setting support the existence of an Imperial Space Corvette that looks Star-Destroyer-ey but is a rough parallel to the CR-90 in power? If so, then yes, I'd buy it.

Edited by Vorpal Sword

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So, for the sake of the argument... If FFG releases a model that is decidedly resembling the Star Destroyer, but with less guns, and less boom boom, and they pack it to us under the 'Imperial Space Corvette" label... The scale-crusaders will be happy to buy it, regardless of the price?

 

What is in a name? A rose by any other name would still smell as sweat...

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