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Punning Pundit

No Star Destroyers, Please

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So, for the sake of the argument... If FFG releases a model that is decidedly resembling the Star Destroyer, but with less guns, and less boom boom, and they pack it to us under the 'Imperial Space Corvette" label... The scale-crusaders will be happy to buy it, regardless of the price?

Yeah, probably. But the fact is that without the name Star Destroyer they lose any number of title, crew, and hardpoint options. They really do lose the ability to make it the biggest baddest thing on the board. It won't feel the same, it won't command the same presence or feel as a Star Destroyer can and should. Or so my intuition on the subject tells me.

Beyond that, it honestly feels like a rip off. And will look, to anyone who doesn't frequent these discussions, like a FFG was being cheap with their licensing.

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They really do lose the ability to make it the biggest baddest thing on the board.

That is completely untrue. A Vigil class ship clearly has more hardpoints there for more guns then a CR-90. That clearly makes it the biggest baddest thing on the board.

There is nothing that you can do with a nerfed and shrunken ISD that you can't do with the Vigil Class Corvette, and still maintain balance in the Epic Rule structure.

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I would love an ISD.  I would love it to sit on my desk so I could look in amazement at it.  Would I play with it in game?  No.  But just because I don't want to play with it doesn't mean it couldn't be made.

No?

 

Then why does it have to be an ISD that is produced for XWMG?

 

If what you want is simply an awesome model that "sits on your desk so you could look in amazment," here you go:

 

http://randycoopermodels.com/content/avenger-star-destroyer

 

second%20stage%20paint%20(5).JPG

Certianly looks amazing.

 

There are neumerous other models out there that can scratch your itch for an 'actual Star Destroyer' at whatever size you want that you can add whatever rules you feel is fitting for it without requiring FFG to release one of their own. 

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the fact that the Star Destroyer is awesome.

I don't think any of us hate the ISD, in fact half or more of the reason I don't want to see it in the game is because I think it's "disrespectful" to the ship to nerf and shrink it like that.

A Vigil or something like that I'd buy without thinking twice. A ISD, the only way I'd buy one is if it were $125 or less and had some truly amazing stuff for other ships, because the only thing it would do is sit on my shelf.

 

Exactly!

 

No hate, just two different reactions motivated by the same love of the Star Destroyer. Neither side right or wrong.

 

My two "game" ships of choice are the Vigil and Customs Corvette. Gozanti coming a close, and more likely, third. But I didn't know what these ships were until I came here, hence the reasoning that the Star Destroyer "should" be part of the game because it IS the Empire huge ship. Everyone recognizes it.

 

:blink: That's why this keeps going round and round but nobody is convincing anybody. Because both points of view are valid.

And thank you. The worst part of these discussions is people claiming wanting a Star Destroyer is patently wrong. As if it will destroy the game.

I admit, I feel like not wanting one for reasons of scale is silly. But I get it. It just doesn't seem like a reason I'd ever go with.

And Balance concerns are 100% valid. But I don't believe FFG will put an unbalnced product out the door. So I don't see that as a reason to not want one.

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They really do lose the ability to make it the biggest baddest thing on the board.

That is completely untrue. A Vigil class ship clearly has more hardpoints there for more guns then a CR-90. That clearly makes it the biggest baddest thing on the board.There is nothing that you can do with a nerfed and shrunken ISD that you can't do with the Vigil Class Corvette, and still maintain balance in the Epic Rule structure.

You can't have the character cards we see on Star Destroyers in the movies. You can't have a gravity well generator. You can't have nearly as many hardpoints(It has 2 very large ones). You can't have Title cards like The Devastator. The vigil class ship is barely part of Star Wars at all. It has no characters tied to it. No prominent named ships. No screen time. It is and always will be a cheap substitute for what the Star Destoyer could have been, based on having a similar shape. It would, quite honestly be like putting Dash Rendar in as a pilot on the YT 1300.

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No hate, just two different reactions motivated by the same love of the Star Destroyer. Neither side right or wrong.

 

:blink: That's why this keeps going round and round but nobody is convincing anybody. Because both points of view are valid.

 

MajorTomK has it right, both sides have the same love. 

 

One side loves it so much they wanna play it on the table.

 

The other side loves it so much they don't wanna play it on the table.

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I don't care that it isn't to scale so long as it is significantly bigger than the CR-90.

 

Out of curiosity, just how much bigger is big enough to satisfy you?

 

I have been collecting and following miniatures and miniature games for a long time now, and about the biggest a game company can feasibly get is about 2 feet long. An example of that was the Halo Action Clix Scarab. Retailed for $200-$250, I think. Or, you could go the Forgeworld rout, their biggest miniature is about 3 feet long (Tau Manta) and retails for around $1500. Oh, and FFG don't have the infrastructure to do a product like that.

 

 

 The Tantive is ... not to scale with the transport.

 

Um...I think it is. Pretty sure I read when they were first announced that they were to scale with each other, and looking at pictures of the two together, they look like they are about the right size. Also, the estimated sizes we have for them (about 12" and about 8") make them pretty close to in scale with each other.

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And Balance concerns are 100% valid. But I don't believe FFG will put an unbalnced product out the door. So I don't see that as a reason to not want one.

 

THAT is what the disagreement is about.

 

You believe that they can put a balanced Star Destroyer on the table.  Others believe they cannot, because in order to balance it with the rest of the game (X-Wings, YT-1300, CR-90, Etc.)  they will have to reduce the power/capabilities of a Star Destroyer to the point that it is no longer a Star Destroyer and is now mearly a Corvette or Frigate wearing the skin of a Star Destroyer.

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I don't care that it isn't to scale so long as it is significantly bigger than the CR-90.

 

Out of curiosity, just how much bigger is big enough to satisfy you?

 

I have been collecting and following miniatures and miniature games for a long time now, and about the biggest a game company can feasibly get is about 2 feet long. An example of that was the Halo Action Clix Scarab. Retailed for $200-$250, I think. Or, you could go the Forgeworld rout, their biggest miniature is about 3 feet long (Tau Manta) and retails for around $1500. Oh, and FFG don't have the infrastructure to do a product like that.

 

 

The Tantive is ... not to scale with the transport.

 

Um...I think it is. Pretty sure I read when they were first announced that they were to scale with each other, and looking at pictures of the two together, they look like they are about the right size. Also, the estimated sizes we have for them (about 12" and about 8") make them pretty close to in scale with each other.

From what I understand, the Tantive is shrunk down by about an extra inch from what it would be at scale with the Transport. 11 Inches versus 8. I don't remember where I read this, as it was a couple months ago, but they follow a scale curve that puts a Star Destroyer between 1.5 and 2 feet. The Tanti e is shrunk down by nearly half from the rest of the ships. The Transport is much less so.

And either of those work for me. FFG can pretty easily ship it in 3-5 pieces to save on shipping and production costs. And beyond that, FFG will let us know if they can't make one work. If there wasn't a possibility of one we'd know it. But they're bound to try. The ship is too iconic not to attempt. I don't think they'll put out a sub-quality product. But when that time comes we'll find out what their plans are.

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The ship is too iconic not to attempt. I don't think they'll put out a sub-quality product. 

 

100% agree.

Star Wars without a Star Destroyer is like Star Trek without the USS Enterprise.

 

FFG have done a great job so far. In fact, X-Wing and it's miniatures are the best. They wouldn't mess up what could be their biggest money maker.

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And Balance concerns are 100% valid. But I don't believe FFG will put an unbalnced product out the door. So I don't see that as a reason to not want one.

THAT is what the disagreement is about.

You believe that they can put a balanced Star Destroyer on the table. Others believe they cannot, because in order to balance it with the rest of the game (X-Wings, YT-1300, CR-90, Etc.) they will have to reduce the power/capabilities of a Star Destroyer to the point that it is no longer a Star Destroyer and is now mearly a Corvette or Frigate wearing the skin of a Star Destroyer.

And that is a conceit of every miniatures game ever. More powerful things are scaled down so that less powerful things are still useful. Hell, the Star Wars Video games do the same thing. This game does the same thing. Where's my Millenium Falcon with two seperate attacks a turn because it has two turrets, each of which is as powerful as an X-wing? Where's the linear damage progression leaving the Tantive's main gun at weapon 8. The whole game is about feeling balanced while being close enough. Close enough, for me, is a Star Destroyer that can total between 150 and 300 points, and can take down an equivalent list half the time or so, more if played cleverly. That's as close as any game has gotten to a Star Destroyer. This is the best game yet for actually being able to feel like you're in command of a Star Destroyer. passing up that opportunity without trying... It's a disservice to the ship. The Epic Ship rules are brilliant. They convey the entirety of what a Star Destroyer should be. They can create a ship that commands the field in a way no other Star Wars Game has had. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. If FFG does the ship right, flying it will be an experience like no other. Edited by Aminar

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If what you want is simply an awesome model that "sits on your desk so you could look in amazment," here you go:

 

second%20stage%20paint%20(5).JPG

Certianly looks amazing.

 

 

:wub:

 

I believe I've seen that model, from a different angle, but the cost was......out of my budget and the resin kit far beyond my skills  :( ah well, some day it will be mine.

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@VanorDM -  I would easily buy a Vigil.  It honestly doesn't matter to me what FFG puts out.  If they choose to put out the Vigil as a "poor man's ISD" then so be it.  It will end up in my collection one way or another.

 

I'm not here to fight with anyone. I agree that an ISD would "break the game" if introduced at a 2 foot scale.  That doesn't mean it wouldn't be cool.  Price matters as well.  Once we start seeing miniatures that are over the $100 mark, FFG will start to see a decline in sales.  Why?  Because fewer people will be able to keep up with the Joneses.  This game is fairly affordable as it stands currently.  If can of course get really expensive if you wish it to be so.  If FFG Releases a Vigil, ISD, Victory, Interdictor or what ever, the fact is whoever does buy them would likely buy one, maybe 2 tops (repainting or modding being the most likely candidates for multiples).  Beyond that, unless you are one of the idle rich, who could afford it? And who could field them if they had more than one.

 

I'll give you the Vigil.  I'd love it. It's not ISD love, but I'd love it all the same.

 

My hope is that sometime in the future we WILL see FFG fork this game over to Capital scale ships.  If they released a 2 foot long ISD, and a Corvette the size of an A-wing to keep things in relative scale, I'd be all over that.  But then we'd run into people wanting the Executor or Eclipse, and we'll be having this same argument all over again.

 

If only there were someone to bring Peace and Order to the Galaxy...

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And that is a conceit of every miniatures game ever. More powerful things are scaled down so that less powerful things are still useful. Hell, the Star Wars Video games do the same thing. This game does the same thing. Where's my Millenium Falcon with two seperate attacks a turn because it has two turrets, each of which is as powerful as an X-wing? Where's the linear damage progression leaving the Tantive's main gun at weapon 8. The whole game is about feeling balanced while being close enough. Close enough, for me, is a Star Destroyer that can total between 150 and 300 points, and can take down an equivalent list half the time or so, more if played cleverly. That's as close as any game has gotten to a Star Destroyer. This is the best game yet for actually being able to feel like you're in command of a Star Destroyer. passing up that opportunity without trying... It's a disservice to the ship. The Epic Ship rules are brilliant. They convey the entirety of what a Star Destroyer should be. They can create a ship that commands the field in a way no other Star Wars Game has had. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. If FFG does the ship right, flying it will be an experience like no other.

That suggests that a Star Destroyer is the equivelant of 150-300pts of Rebel Scum.  I get that in a video game you were able to blow one up, but just like in the movies, the good guys win.  These things happen for the sake of telling an increadable story where good triumphs over evil and the heros save the day.  However, a game is no fun when one side is supossed to win. 

 

40k has D-Weapons.  When you use them your opponent picks up their models literally by the armload.  Fun(?) i guess. Game design wise it is to simulate the shear awesome firepower that Titans have. 

 

You mention "non-linear damage projection."  Agreed.  But a YT-1300 losing it's second attack in order to be balanced with an X-Wing is negligeable compaired to a Star Destroyer losing 90% of it's capabilities (not to mention size) in order to be balanced with an X-Wing.

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You can't have the character cards we see on Star Destroyers in the movies.

The Epic ships don't get character cards the same way fighters do. So that's a pretty meaningless point.

You can't have a gravity well generator.

So? Gravity Well's have no place in this game to start with. That's like saying they don't have an espresso machine.

You can't have nearly as many hardpoints(It has 2 very large ones).

It has more then 2 large ones. In fact it has 7 of them. 2 on the underside of the ship, and 5 on top the ship. Not that 7 hard points would be balanced by any stretch. Do you honestly think FFG would put in a ISD with 15+ hard points? If so you clearly don't care about balance.

You can't have Title cards like The Devastator.

So again we're back to the name being the most important thing.

Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

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Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

 

 

Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is. I've since learnt, but my knowledge comes from wookieepedia.

 

When talking about ICONIC ships, you've got:

 

Star Destroyer

Super Star Destroyer

 

Death Star doesn't count as a ship but that is it.

Edited by MajorTomK

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Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

 

 

Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is. I've since learnt, by knowledge comes from wookieepedia.

 

When talking about ICONIC ships, you've got:

 

Star Destroyer

Super Star Destroyer

 

Death Star doesn't count as a ship but that is it.

 

Speaking of iconic, why not a Super Star Destroyer?

Edited by catachan23

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Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

 

 

Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is. I've since learnt, by knowledge comes from wookieepedia.

 

When talking about ICONIC ships, you've got:

 

Star Destroyer

Super Star Destroyer

 

Death Star doesn't count as a ship but that is it.

 

Speaking of iconic, why not a Super Star Destroyer?

 

 

hehe

Dare I say too big, unbalanced etc etc etc

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I'll give you the Vigil.  I'd love it. It's not ISD love, but I'd love it all the same.

The Vigil is IMO the prefect ship, that or that scratch build TRamsey is doing. They have that classic look and for 98% of the people out there, it would be a suitable substitute for a ISD that actually fits into the scale of this game.

Sure it's not a ISD. But a ISD doesn't belong in this game in the first place.

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Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is.

I'd guess you didn't know what a HWK-290 is either, or any ship from Wave 4. Just because people don't know what it is, isn't really a valid reason to not include it.

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Interesting topic this one. Personally, having not played any of the P.C games, or other such, my limited knowledge comes from the films and the odd book. However, having a good look through the interwebs, I must admit a Virgil really would fit rather nicely. Would be a grand counter to the Blockade runner, looks very imperial and not so large and ''uber power'' that it would break the game.

 

To break thought for a moment, say they do add a Star destroyer to the game, pray tell, what the hell is going to counter it. Not much fun facing one of those and getting wiped off the board. If all that you want is a ''Star Destroyer'' then I feel something is amiss. A scaled down version would in effect be a Virgil.

 

Still, I doubt anything that has been said shall sway you, so please, continue your one man crusade, rather good reading over my coffee.

 

Final food for thought, looking at the current production run of FFG games, I highly doubt they will release a ship in multiple parts for the end user to assemble. Just highly unlikely. 

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Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

 

 

Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is. I've since learnt, by knowledge comes from wookieepedia.

 

When talking about ICONIC ships, you've got:

 

Star Destroyer

Super Star Destroyer

 

Death Star doesn't count as a ship but that is it.

 

Speaking of iconic, why not a Super Star Destroyer?

 

 

hehe

Dare I say too big, unbalanced etc etc etc

 

hehe  ;)

 

I just wanna reitterate to everyone here that I hope we all remember that we love Star Wars and we all love this game. 

 

I sincearly hope that there is no gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands and that everyone remembers we are on the same team. :)

Edited by catachan23

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Because people like me whose knowledge of Star Wars is limited to sitting on my bum watching movies and playing Battlefront don't know what it is.

I'd guess you didn't know what a HWK-290 is either, or any ship from Wave 4. Just because people don't know what it is, isn't really a valid reason to not include it.

 

 

You're right there.

 

Since learning of some of the other ships I now find myself wanting them. Some not even released like CloakShape fighters, StarVipers, YT-2400 and yes a Vigil and Customs Corvette. Love the Z-95's and intend getting a HWK.

 

But they released X-Wings and Tie Fighters long before the EU ships. Why?

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You can't have the character cards we see on Star Destroyers in the movies.

The Epic ships don't get character cards the same way fighters do. So that's a pretty meaningless point.

You can't have a gravity well generator.

So? Gravity Well's have no place in this game to start with. That's like saying they don't have an espresso machine.

You can't have nearly as many hardpoints(It has 2 very large ones).

It has more then 2 large ones. In fact it has 7 of them. 2 on the underside of the ship, and 5 on top the ship. Not that 7 hard points would be balanced by any stretch. Do you honestly think FFG would put in a ISD with 15+ hard points? If so you clearly don't care about balance.

You can't have Title cards like The Devastator.

So again we're back to the name being the most important thing.Basically you lack any sort of logical argument on why the Vigil isn't good enough, other then you just don't think it is.

Sure they do. Jan Dodonna. Leia. Etc. They get all sorts of character based crew cards. A Vigil cannot have those, because it has appeared in nothing of note. Some dude it made it up and stuck it in with other art to get it added to canon. It's been in what, one Video game? And a sourcebook?

And Names are immensley important. Go read the psychology on name recognition some time.

And of course I care about balance. I've said so at least ten times in this thread alone. It is a challnege to the design. Not a definite no. Nothing requires a Star Destroyer to be broken. Just High Point cost. There is a difference. Pay attention to the principles of game design. Just because something is big doesn't make it broken. Just because it's a lot of points doesn't make it broken.

Edited by Aminar

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