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chzzz

Faq 5.0 page 10

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Hello!

I have a question about the chapter "triggered effect" 3.6 on page 10 in the faq.

In order to trigger an effect, the possibility that at least some independent aspect of the effect (as opposed to the cost) is able to resolve

must exist. If, given the current game state it is impossible (aside from cancels) for at least one aspect of the effect to resolve, the effect cannot be triggered. This check is made during step "b" of an action's initiation, when all play restrictions are checked.

Dose it mean :

You cannot discard darkstar to stand southron stronghold already stand ?

You cannot play supported by the smith if you dont have at least one location or with the right cost in your discard pile ?

You cannot use frozen outpost on a defending character that dose not kneel to defend (already stand)?

Thanks for the clarification.

Edited by chzzz

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The new entry in the FAQ means that if all independent effects will be unsuccessful, you cannot trigger the effect in the first place - just to pay a beneficial cost or to create a particular response opportunity. In short, no meaningless effects, even if it has meaningful costs.

 

So, for your particular examples:

 

- Standing something that is already standing is considered an unsuccessful resolution, so you cannot trigger the location's effect if it is already standing - just because you want to drop cards from your hand.

- If there are no locations in your discard pile that meet the cost requirement, nothing will happen during the resolution of the event, which would be considered unsuccessful. You cannot play the event just because you feel like kneeling influence/HOLY characters.

 

- Frozen Outpost does two separate things: stand the defender and give it +2 STR. Even though standing a defender that is already standing would be unsuccessful, the character would still have its STR raised successfully - so you can still use Frozen Outpost on the standing defender just to get the +2 STR during resolution. At least one independent part of the resolution will be successful.

NOTE that if Frozen Outpost said "Stand a defending character. THEN that character gains +2 STR until the end of the phase." you would not be able to trigger it because the only independent effect (standing) would be unsuccessful.

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Would just choosing a target be considered a successful effect, even if the rest of the effect doesn't actually do anything to the target?

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No. 

 

If it helps, think of it this way: something must happen successfully in the resolution step of the triggered effect (unless canceled, of course). Choosing targets happens as part of initiation.

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Given this new ruling, if we consider, for example,

 

Dormish Heritage :

Any phase: Discard a card from your hand to choose a character. Until the end of the phase, that character gains an icon of your choice.

 

Is giving an icon to a character which already possesses it considered a possible successful resolution ?

 

Meadowlark :

Challenges: Kneel Meadowlark to choose a challenge icon. Each character in play loses all enhancements on that icon.

 

If there is no enhancements on icon in play, the ability cannot be triggered anymore ?

Edited by Saneth

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Remember that whenever you check for STR, icons, traits, etc., you start from scratch and all apply all currently active modifiers to your check. So "success" of gain/lose effects is not based on the change in the characteristic's effective status before and after the effect is played, but on whether or not a new modifier is activated.

 

So, in your examples, the modifier is still successfully applied - as in, it is there to be dealt with when the next modifier is applied - even though there may be no effective result on a card's icons or enhancements. So something does happen successfully during resolution and the new rule does not stop you from triggering the effect.

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Then ,

 

-Game of cyvasse

 -Now you musT CHOOSE a STANDING character to knel?

 

 

Kingdom Shadows

 

-If your opponent win INt, he must choose a KNEELINg shadow to stand?

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-Game of cyvasse

 -Now you musT CHOOSE a STANDING character to knel?

 

The limitation is on triggering the effect. So the person who plays the event must choose a standing character with an INT icon to kneel - if they have one (the "if able" would still allow them to play they event if they had no standing character with an INT icon). Any other players - who choose their targets after the play restriction check on triggering the effect, and are not triggering anything, anyway - are not required to ensure a successful resolution.

 

Kingdom Shadows

 

-If your opponent win INt, he must choose a KNEELINg shadow to stand?

 

The limitation is on triggering effects. Kingdom of Shadows is passive, i.e. - not triggered, so outside the scope of the ruling.

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I want to trigger an effect with "each player choose and do X"

1.no "if able" (For R'hllor or Enemy of My Enemy)

     a, I can choose and do successfully -----this effect can be triggered even if my opponent can't choose or do successfully. 

     b, if I can't choose or do successfully ----this effect can't be triggered even if my opponent can do

2,with "if able"(Game of cyvasse)

     I can trigger this effect at any time even if I can't choose or can't do

 

am I right?thanks.

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1. If there is no "if able," then you can only play it if all players have a card to choose. Without "if able," the cards chosen by each player are required targets of the effect. If an effect does not have all required targets available, it cannot be triggered. You know; if a card says "choose 3 characters" and there are only 2 in play, you can't play the card because you can't choose 3 characters. Same thing here. This has always been true and actually has nothing to do with the new FAQ entry.

 

2. With "if able," you can trigger the effect even if not everyone has a target available, including yourself. However, if you (the person playing the event) do have a target available, the effect must be able to resolve successfully on your chosen target in order for you to trigger it. For example, with Cyvasse, if you have no characters with INT icons, you can play it; if you have a standing character with an INT icon, you can play it (and choose the standing character); but if all your characters with INT icons are kneeling, you cannot play the event because you fail the new "something must happen" check required to play/trigger the event.

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I'm 99% sure this won't work, but...

Say you have a Maester with Valyrian Steel Link, a Rusted Sword, and a Steel Link. (Meereenese Fighting Pit FTW.)

You are draw capped.

VSL is a "Kneel attached Maester to draw cards," so under the new ruling, you cannot kneel him for no reason even though a response to his kneeling from another card is in plain view, Steel Link being one of the "when attached character kneels" effect.

Edited by Grimwalker

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Correct. Under the new rule, the triggered effect has to have some anticipated resolution itself. As detailed above, you cannot trigger it just to pay a beneficial cost or to create a Response opportunity.

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2. With "if able," you can trigger the effect even if not everyone has a target available, including yourself. However, if you (the person playing the event) do have a target available, the effect must be able to resolve successfully on your chosen target in order for you to trigger it. For example, with Cyvasse, if you have no characters with INT icons, you can play it; if you have a standing character with an INT icon, you can play it (and choose the standing character); but if all your characters with INT icons are kneeling, you cannot play the event because you fail the new "something must happen" check required to play/trigger the event.

 

How are the two comments in bold different for all intents and purposes?  Both mean you do not have an applicable target for the event.  Sorry if I am misunderstanding the context of this post.

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I'm as confused as Bomb here. 

To me, if we state that the "If able" allows you to trigger this regardless of the new FAQ (because every player will choose if able, even if nothing else happens). Surely "Choosing a character, if able" is "something happening", regardless of whether the board state changes - and therefore Cyvasse can always be triggered?

Even if that were not the case, I cannot see a distinction between failing to choose a character and failing to successfully kneel that character in the effect - both result in the pre-Then statement to fail (if there weren't an If Able).

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Even if that were not the case, I cannot see a distinction between failing to choose a character and failing to successfully kneel that character in the effect - both result in the pre-Then statement to fail (if there weren't an If Able).

 

Going through the reasoning the long way, I can see and agree with this. The end result then, is that if the person playing the event doesn't have a target OR has only targets that are already knelt, s/he can't play the event. Here's how you get to that the "long way":

 

- All play restrictions, including whether or not all legal targets are available, are checked in part "b" of the initiation sequence described in the FAQ.

- The new definition of and limitations on "triggered effect" in FAQ 5.0 indicates that "are you anticipating a successful resolution for this effect" has been added into those play restriction checks in part "b" of initiation.

- So looking at Cyvasse, there are two questions to ask before you can trigger the effect:

1. Does each player have a character with an INT icon to choose as a target?

2. Can I anticipate a successful resolution of some part of the independent effect(s)?

- That, btw, is the key issue here. Targeting requirements and anticipated success are two separate play restrictions that must both be met before the effect can be triggered.

- If the answer to #1 is "no," it's OK to continue because the "if able" allows you to continue without choosing all targets.

- If the answer to #2 is "no," you're done because, whether there is an "if able" or not, the new FAQ entry uses the magic word "cannot." If you do not anticipate a successful resolution of at least some pare of the independent effect, you cannot trigger the effect at all. The "if able" text doesn't trump that absolute (i.e., "cannot") restriction.

 

Remembering that the person triggering the event has no control over what the other players will choose, and that the other players are not trying to trigger an effect and so are not obligated to do what they can to ensure a successful resolution, there is really only one situation in which the person playing Cyvasse can answer "yes" to #2 -- have a standing character with an INT icon themselves that they will choose as a target and kneel for the event's effect.

 

So, you are correct that the "no characters with the INT icon controlled by the person playing the event" and the "all characters with the INT icon controlled by the person playing the event are kneeling" situations should have the same result. BUT, that result is "you can't trigger Cyvasse."

 

This does indicate a slight shift in the way that we have understood the text "if able" to this point. It's not that anyone was wrong before, only that the rules environment has changed a little bit, so this particular instance doesn't work exactly the same as before.

 

Specifically, "Pre-FAQ 5.0" the term "if able" did two separate things. 

A) "If able" used as part of identifying targets for an effect allowed you to trigger the effect anyway if fewer than the maximum number of targets were available to choose. It softened the "all available targets" requirement for triggering effects.

B) "If able" used as part of a "then" effect (e.g., "Do X. Then do Y.") allowed you to consider X successful (and move on to Y) after the effect had been triggered, even if nothing actually happened during X.

 

Post-FAQ 5.0, our understanding of the term needs to change a little.

A) Doesn't change at all. "If able" will still allow you to trigger the effect if fewer than the maximum number of targets is available.

B) Does change a little. "Do X, if able. Then do Y" effects are going to be subject to the new "must anticipate some successful resolution" restriction. And if you anticipate a complete lack of success (or cannot at least guarantee some success) for X, you cannot trigger the effect in the first place. It doesn't matter that the "if able" would allow you to move on to Y for an unsuccessful X once you reach Step 3. The fact that you anticipate a completely unsuccessful X means you never get out of Step 1. You can still trigger a partially successful X, and move on to Y because of the "if able," but if you anticipate a completely unsuccessful X, the "if able" won't bypass the absolute "cannot" of the new FAQ entry.

 

Cyvasse is just an interesting case because it incorporates both uses and contexts for "if able" in the same card.

 

Hope that all made sense. You guys were absolutely right for calling me out on that inconsistency.

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I can see that justification, Ktom, I'm just uncomfortable with the idea that the statement "choose a character, if able" can ever fail. In other words, I don't see this as a conflict between the FAQ's choice of the word "Cannot" - because to me, the portion of "choosing a character, if able" will *always* successfully resolve, even if it has no effect on the game state. Since that section will never fail, it seems to me you can always trigger cyvasse. 

 

What am I missing here?

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What am I missing here?

 

Simply stated, choosing targets is not part of the event's effect. (It's part of the event's initiation.) So it's success or failure has nothing to do with the FAQ's requirement that you anticipate at least some success during the resolution of the effect.

 

Stated less simply (but the technical language can help), choosing the character(s) is targeting, and happens during initiation in Step 1. It is not an effect in and of itself that resolves in Step 3. And the FAQ requires you to anticipate some success in resolution. So while choosing the target "if able" will always be successful and allow you to meet the target restrictions in Step 1, that doesn't tell you anything about whether or not what you are choosing the targets for will be successful in Step 3 (as is required under the new FAQ entry).

 

For example: Distraction reads "Marshalling: Choose a character with the MIL icon. Kneel that character." In the post-5.0 world, can you play that on a character with a MIL icon that is already kneeling? The choice of the character with the MIL icon is successful whether the character is kneeling or not, so under what you say about Cyvasse, that's good enough satisfy the "anticipated resolution success" rule. But that seems really counterintuitive, doesn't it? Particularly given that we know, from all those CBK discussions, that "Choose a character. Do X to it." is the same as "Choose a character and do X."

 

So, when Cyvasse says "each player must choose and kneel a character with an INT icon he or she controls, if able," you cannot treat the "choose" as a separate, independent effect - which you anticipate as always successful and thus allows you to always trigger the effect. You are right that you can always successfully choose targets - but as the Distraction example shows, just because you can successfully choose targets does not mean that you can successfully resolve the effect.

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I'm going to send a Rules question to FFG on how "if able" should now be considered based on the new entry of the FAQ on this subject.  Hopefully the response I received will not leave room for much interpretation.

 

EDIT: I will wait to do this because I posted this without seeing ktom's most recent post.

Edited by Bomb

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Then, in the case of Valyrian Steel, if i kneel my maester to draw 2 cards but i can only draw one for my cap limit, then for the new faq i cant trigger the chain?

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Then, in the case of Valyrian Steel, if i kneel my maester to draw 2 cards but i can only draw one for my cap limit, then for the new faq i cant trigger the chain?

 

That is incorrect. You would be allowed to to trigger it to draw the 1 card, though not the 2 because of the cap.

 

Drawing 1 card before reaching cap would be considered a partially successful resolution of the effect, therefore meeting the requiremetns of the new FAQ entry.

 

On the other hand, the new FAQ entry prevents you from using Valyrian Steel link if you are already at draw cap and just want to kneel the Maester to spark off all the rest of his Response chains.

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I know I don't have to do this but I will quote part of the new FAQ entry on this subject:
 

 

"In order to trigger an effect, the possibility that at least some independent aspect of the effect (as opposed to the cost) is able to resolve must exist. If, given the current game state, it is impossible (aside from cancels) for at least one aspect of the effect to resolve, the effect cannot be triggered."

 

To me, this means that there must be at least one character must have an INT icon, is standing, and can be knelt.  This would make at least one part of Game of Cyvasse is possible to resolve.  Because the possibility exists, the event should be possible to be played.  The "if able" basically makes it so the choices made by players CAN fail, and move on to the "then" portion of the effect.

 

Please tell me if this is brutally incorrect or not.

 

EDIT: Added more to the above quote as it is just as relevant to the discussion and don't want to look like I'm purposely quoting it out of context.

Edited by Bomb

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Not brutally incorrect, but I don't think it has to go deeper than that.

 

Let's say, for Distraction, I have a standing MIL character and a kneeling one. The "possibility" that at least some independent aspect of the effect is able to resolve exists, right? So can I choose the kneeling one as the actual target when I trigger the event? I'd say no. The FAQ entry becomes meaningless if I can get past the "possibility" requirement by having a standing character to choose, but then avoid its impact completely by choosing a kneeling character.

 

That's what I think has to be taken into account when looking at Cyvasse. There has to be at least one standing character with the INT icon that can be chosen as a target in order to get past the "possibility" check. But more than that, a standing character with the INT icon must be chosen as a target, or else the FAQ entry means nothing. The only way the person playing the event can be sure such a character is chosen is to choose it themselves - which means they have to control it.

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When you have multiple players making targeting choices, the opponents add a possibility of successful resolution that is independent of your control.  The event does not always fail if you do not select a standing character with an INT icon unless it is impossible for an opponent to choose a target.

 

I agree with your counterargument with Distraction, but Distraction only depends on that player of the event to choose legal targets.  You are the only one who can make a legal choice and allow the effect to successfully resolve. 

 

I think that the only time you cannot trigger an effect is if the effect will always fail to resolve.  Distraction will always fail to resolve if you choose a kneeling MIL icon character.  Game of Cyvasse doesn't always fail to resolve if you do not choose a standing INT character unless the opponent does not have an eligible target.  The opponent's choice becomes that additional possibility for the event to resolve successfully.

 

The FAQ entry does not say that you cannot trigger an effect that could fail to resolve.  It says you cannot trigger an effect that is impossible to resolve. 

 

For Game of Cyvasse, it is always possible to resolve it as long as the opponent has a standing INT character.  Without them having a standing INT character, you will always have to kneel a standing INT character because without doing so the effect will be impossible to resolve.

 

I think I'm at the point where I might have to ask FFG if I want to get the full understanding of how the new FAQ entry works with effects like this.  Just need to figure out how to word such a question...

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