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Seiito

Force Senstive Exile / Force Sensitive Emergent

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For those carrying over characters from EotE, GM permitting, will you be rolling into FSEm in addition to FSEx or upgrading from FSEx to FSEm?

Edited by Seiito

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I would think that this sort of player progression has not only been planned for by FFG, but would also be encouraged.  What I am curious about is how well the Specs "stack," and if this does not lead to OPing your Jedi.

 

The one area where previous iterations of the IP have consistently failed is their representation of the Jedi.  They have always outgrown the other party classes and roles too fast.  I hope FFG has managed to smooth that wrinkle a bit.

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Have to admit to being interested in seeing how this is handled by everybody else.

 

I assumed if you selected Force Exile you wouldn't need to purchase the Force Emergent as your character is already force sensitive and wouldn't need to.

 

How does that sound to you?

Edited by copperbell

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Have to admit to being interested in seeing how this is handled by everybody else.

 

I assumed if you selected Force Exile you wouldn't need to purchase the Force Emergent as your character is already force sensitive and wouldn't need to.

 

How does that sound to you?

If you want the talents from the FS Emergent tree then of course you'd have to purchase it. Why would you get it otherwise?

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Typically the main goal of dipping into another of these starter Force-sensitive specs after already having one is to get to the bottom of the tree and grab that extra Force Rating; usually less about getting other specific talents, which I'd imagine would be a primary factor for players in choosing which Force-Sensitive tree to pick first.

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Have to admit to being interested in seeing how this is handled by everybody else.

 

I assumed if you selected Force Exile you wouldn't need to purchase the Force Emergent as your character is already force sensitive and wouldn't need to.

 

How does that sound to you?

Depends, their talents and such represent different things, so there's that. But its also that issue of force rating. Some people want to have powers to rival Yoda, and taking multiple trees is currently to way to get that high FR.

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I assumed that once you've bought the force sensitive part you would have access to all of the Force Powers, the talent tree however wouldn't be part of that.

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I assumed that once you've bought the force sensitive part you would have access to all of the Force Powers, the talent tree however wouldn't be part of that.

That's implied strongly in the Playtest Update rules on mixing.

 

As it sits, the only way to raise Force Rating is to work through multiple trees, and at present, there are only 2 available. Therefore, the maximum PC force rating is 3 - impressive, not totally dominating a party. And, at the "playtest rate" of 20 XP per "session", it's at least 10 sessions to get there, assuming you  raise nothing else. 

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Typically the main goal of dipping into another of these starter Force-sensitive specs after already having one is to get to the bottom of the tree and grab that extra Force Rating; usually less about getting other specific talents, which I'd imagine would be a primary factor for players in choosing which Force-Sensitive tree to pick first.

Pretty much this.

 

While buying one or the other provides Force Rating 1 and thus the ability to purchase Force powers, you'd need to take both of them in order to get to Force Rating 3 for reasons mentioned above.  There's a definite leap in power between FR 2 and FR 3, as rolling three Force dice means the player has a much greater chance of activating not only the basic effect of a Force Power, but also of triggering a couple of upgrades.

 

From what I've seen, there's really not much reason why these two wouldn't play well together other than the two specs having slightly different themes; the Exile is more about 'mysterious powers' and 'surviving off the Empire's radar' where the Emergent is generally more direct in its approach.

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 There's a definite leap in power between FR 2 and FR 3, as rolling three Force dice means the player has a much greater chance of activating not only the basic effect of a Force Power, but also of triggering a couple of upgrades.

True, though I see the ability to commit to both forms of Sense and still have a die free to roll Influence or whatever, or both forms of Sense + Enhance (or many other permutations) to be the truest gauge of power.

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Have to admit to being interested in seeing how this is handled by everybody else.

 

I assumed if you selected Force Exile you wouldn't need to purchase the Force Emergent as your character is already force sensitive and wouldn't need to.

 

How does that sound to you?

Depends, their talents and such represent different things, so there's that. But its also that issue of force rating. Some people want to have powers to rival Yoda, and taking multiple trees is currently to way to get that high FR.

 

A FR of 3 isn't anywhere close to Yoda's power level.

 

 

 There's a definite leap in power between FR 2 and FR 3, as rolling three Force dice means the player has a much greater chance of activating not only the basic effect of a Force Power, but also of triggering a couple of upgrades.

True, though I see the ability to commit to both forms of Sense and still have a die free to roll Influence or whatever, or both forms of Sense + Enhance (or many other permutations) to be the truest gauge of power.

 

I think you're right, but a FR 3 isn't going to be doing too much, I believe. If you're committing two Force dice, you're back to being fairly unreliable in your activation of powers at all, let alone upgrades, and are losing dice on any skills your powers improve upon. The powerful Jedi we see in the films are probably committing 2 or 3 dice and still rolling 2-3 dice at least for their powers and Enhanced skills. And given the hit to your action economy in committing all of those dice, you're not looking at a tremendous amount of power at FR 3. I think.

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That's if you care about needing to roll dice. In combat, committing to Sense (Defense/double upgrade), Sense (Offense/double upgrade), and Enhance (Brawn/Agility, depending on your combat style) is what I would consider an optimized Force Adept (and clocks in at a ton of XP, just saying). There currently aren't many powers worth activating versus committing those 3. Foresee's initiative boost isn't near as good as 2 double offense and defense upgrades plus a combat Characteristic increase. Move has the additional downside of being super obvious and possibly being the reason the Empire realizes what you are.

 

And is there a rule saying you can't just commit Force Dice to those powers 100% of the time?

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And is there a rule saying you can't just commit Force Dice to those powers 100% of the time?

 

I don't think there is, but I can't imagine constantly using the Force would do anything other than draw Darth Vader to you like a shark to blood.

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And is there a rule saying you can't just commit Force Dice to those powers 100% of the time?

 

I don't think there is, but I can't imagine constantly using the Force would do anything other than draw Darth Vader to you like a shark to blood.

 

It depends. Even the Empire depends on people reporting Weird **** to the authorities for the Sith bureaucracy to consider sending an Inquisitor. Sustained Enhance wouldnt be very obvious I don't think, but if you fling around speeders with Move, that will get reports sent in.

 

And it doesn't help that we don't have Force presence/Force Stealth mechanics yet, unfortunately. 

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It depends. Even the Empire depends on people reporting Weird **** to the authorities for the Sith bureaucracy to consider sending an Inquisitor. Sustained Enhance wouldnt be very obvious I don't think, but if you fling around speeders with Move, that will get reports sent in.

 

 

 

 

 

And it doesn't help that we don't have Force presence/Force Stealth mechanics yet, unfortunately. 

 

 

Sure, but it is well established that Force Sensitive people can sense other Force Sensitives. It seems like some guy walking around constantly using the Force (i.e. - committing Force dice 100% of the time) would be sending out huge ripples in every direction. Somebody is going to notice that.

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It depends. Even the Empire depends on people reporting Weird **** to the authorities for the Sith bureaucracy to consider sending an Inquisitor. Sustained Enhance wouldnt be very obvious I don't think, but if you fling around speeders with Move, that will get reports sent in.

 

 

 

 

 

And it doesn't help that we don't have Force presence/Force Stealth mechanics yet, unfortunately. 

 

 

Sure, but it is well established that Force Sensitive people can sense other Force Sensitives. It seems like some guy walking around constantly using the Force (i.e. - committing Force dice 100% of the time) would be sending out huge ripples in every direction.

(1) Hopefully F&D will provide those mechanics - both "Sense Force" and "Force Stealth." Plenty of Sith especially seem to be maintaining their Dark Side powers but not putting off "emanations" that are detectable. And even if they're putting off energy, it's always portrayed as very localized. Of course in RotJ, Luke knew that Vader sensed him, but he'd never been trained to suppress his growing presence in the Force - thus viewing himself as a liability to the mission. Still, it was relatively close to the Death Star. 

 

(2) Huge ripples, for relatively little things like enhancing your own body? I doubt it, at least for someone trained in managing that. 

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(2) Huge ripples, for relatively little things like enhancing your own body? I doubt it, at least for someone trained in managing that. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that, right now, there isn't a RAW PC in existence that qualifies as trained in the Force.

 

Plus, in Empire, the Emperor calls Luke a, "Great disturbance in the Force." This is when Luke wasn't very powerful (e.g. - could barely move a lightsaber across an ice cave).

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That's if you care about needing to roll dice. In combat, committing to Sense (Defense/double upgrade), Sense (Offense/double upgrade), and Enhance (Brawn/Agility, depending on your combat style) is what I would consider an optimized Force Adept (and clocks in at a ton of XP, just saying). There currently aren't many powers worth activating versus committing those 3. Foresee's initiative boost isn't near as good as 2 double offense and defense upgrades plus a combat Characteristic increase. Move has the additional downside of being super obvious and possibly being the reason the Empire realizes what you are.

 

And is there a rule saying you can't just commit Force Dice to those powers 100% of the time?

Well, it also means not rolling Force Dice for your Athletics (which may be important for closing with your enemy, or otherwise traversing terrain), Piloting (ditto), Coordination (ditto ditto), and your social skills (if you're the sort to try and avoid violent solutions). Also, the book does specifically call out the GM ruling that certain circumstances should bring down committed powers, and has a suggestion for using Move as an ongoing effect that causes strain over time, and we have the books (and to a lesser degree the films) that indicate that using the Force for a prolonged period of time, maintaining that concentration, can be tiring.

 

Personally, I'd not allow a player to be maintaining these powers all the time. Sense (defense) would be reasonable as long as the player feels like they may be in a dangerous situation soon, but they wouldn't be walking around like that all the time, and Sense (offense) doesn't make much...sense...unless they know they are about to be in combat. As for Enhancing one's Agility or Brawn, again, I imagine that it would be strenuous to keep that up full time.

 

Also, Donovan has given us the Ways of the Force supplement with some rules governing sensing others in the Force, and trying to hide from being sensed, the latter of which requires the character to not be using the Force at that moment at all. While maintaining some personal enhancement wouldn't necessarily cause significant ripples, the way Sense (defense) gets described in some of the books (as an expanded zone of awareness, sort of like a Force bubble around you) would make you easier to detect.

 

Now, I've convinced my GM to allow a character to commit a die as a Maneuver, rather than an Action, because it felt overly cumbersome for a character caught unaware to spend 2 or 3 rounds not really doing anything in order to bring up their powers. Besides, the Sense committed powers are similar in function to some talents other characters have that cost either a maneuver (for a round's worth of effect) or an incidental, as well as Strain--Sense ends up being a bit better than those, but it also has some steeper requirements, has you spending XP in a tree that isn't going to get you to something like Dedication, and comes with the risk of using the Force during this era.

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(2) Huge ripples, for relatively little things like enhancing your own body? I doubt it, at least for someone trained in managing that. 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that, right now, there isn't a RAW PC in existence that qualifies as trained in the Force.

 

I don't think it's very fair to say that. What's your basis for that assertion - that there's no explicit "Jedi" career?

 

 

With regard to Luke, it could very well be that he wasn't able to minimize his raw talent because he wasn't trained to. But again this is a cinematic scene that may not be well-replicated by any hard rules.

 

Also, Donovan has given us the Ways of the Force supplement with some rules governing sensing others in the Force, and trying to hide from being sensed, the latter of which requires the character to not be using the Force at that moment at all. While maintaining some personal enhancement wouldn't necessarily cause significant ripples, the way Sense (defense) gets described in some of the books (as an expanded zone of awareness, sort of like a Force bubble around you) would make you easier to detect.

I'm pretty sure "not using any Force stuff in order to avoid detection" kind of contradicts how the Sith have worked in the canon, using (non-obvious) powers but also minimizing their Force presence, to just seem like very persuasive mundanes. 

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The Force specializations we have so far are Force Sensitive Emergent and Force Sensitive Exile. Neither of those can use a lightsaber, so neither are supposed to represent full Jedi Knights. At most, you've got people who have incomplete training.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda both hid themselves away on isolated worlds far from the temptation to use their powers to save the innocents the Empire was massacring. I'm pretty sure they had good reason for that. If you're going to argue a PC should know how to Force cloak himself from the Emperor and Darth Vader while using the Force willy-nilly in the same era Obi-Wan and Yoda exiled themselves to avoid being destroyed, good luck.

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I'm with KJDavid here. Hunting down Force users is pretty much 50% of Darth Vader's job description. Continuous use of the Force like constantly having active powers would create ripples in the Force - maybe not big ones, since the user is untrained and not that powerful, but continuous ones. Sooner or later Vader and/or the Emperor and/or Inquisitors or Dark Side Adepts or something similar would notice. And then they'd start firing up the Farsee power, and before you know it Darth Vader would arrive to take your lunch money in the worst way. There's a reason why the Jedi who survived Order 66 went into hiding, rather than just keep doing their thing and betting on Vader not stumbling across them by coincidence.

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I'm with KJDavid here. Hunting down Force users is pretty much 50% of Darth Vader's job description. Continuous use of the Force like constantly having active powers would create ripples in the Force - maybe not big ones, since the user is untrained and not that powerful, but continuous ones. Sooner or later Vader and/or the Emperor and/or Inquisitors or Dark Side Adepts or something similar would notice. And then they'd start firing up the Farsee power, and before you know it Darth Vader would arrive to take your lunch money in the worst way. There's a reason why the Jedi who survived Order 66 went into hiding, rather than just keep doing their thing and betting on Vader not stumbling across them by coincidence.

 

Yeah, if you could easily hide from the Emperor and Vader while using the Force, why weren't the Jedi who survived Order 66 busy forming an underground Jedi training program?

 

HINT: Because you can't easily hide from the Emperor and Vader.

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So this is all based on EU but here goes

 

The Force is like a current that has eddies and ripples like any ripples.  Throw a few little pebbles in  the ripples bleed off before they get too far.  Drop a rock in and the ripples go a lot farther.  That is how the Force can be viewed.  The Force Exile has learned how to leave as little impact on this current  as possible.  A Force Emergent will have a little bit more of an impact but as everyone keeps pointing out may not have that much power to really cause major ripples.  Finally you have overt and covert powers.  Most of the Force Exile powers are covert and the ones they have listed for Emergent are overt and covert as well.  The thing that really makes an impact is a fully trained force user which neither one of them are.  Going off another analogy of currents this time power you have positive (light) and  negative (dark) and when a force user draws on them such as an emergent or exile (or both) they only draw off a little power from one or the other.  A Jedi will probably be able to draw more a knight more so and a master even more then that.  So everyone force wise is plugged into the same current and you feel a few trickles here or there it could be a force  user or it  could just be a Hutt really entertaining himself as ALL life has an impact on that current for good or ill.  However, when a Jedi uses the force to take out a stormtrooper garrison he probably pulling on that current full force.  See Jedi from the Clone War Era never learned restraint really, and why should they?  They had nothing to fear with the Force as their ally and the government on their side.

 

Now why didn't Jedi just go hide and set up a secret training base?  Well most Jedi had learned from the past and knew that such things had one of two things happen they fell to corruption due to the fact that one of the edict is there is no ignorance there is knowledge and keeping secrets is akin to ignorance (look at KOTOR 2). Or two they would get too big and someone or something would slip and they would all get blasted.  The EU has an example of a group called the Eleven who were survivors of Order 66 and they tried to organize a rebellion and take back the Republic.  They failed and they all died rather badly from what I understand.  Obi-Wan and Yoda both hid on planets that they or someone else had confronted a dark sider on that would mask  their presence.  There were other survivors of the Order 66 and they got the message from Obi-Wan in Episode three when he recoded the beacon.  Most took the hint and went and hid far from the core worlds where the Emperor and Vader mainly operated.  Based on EU and some of the FFG books  so far there is a Jedi in hiding on Bespin plus a force user, there are two Jedi hiding in Hutt Space, there is one out in the Corporate Sector, and at least three others bouncing around somewhere in the outer rim.  Now we have Kanon and the young kid with a sling shot in Rebels.  They never established what happened to Ahsoka but she did leave the Order during the war.  You also had a very old Jedi Master on Yavin 4 who was in a trance for a very long time if the EU is to be believed.  

 

Wait what about only canon stuff? Leia there is your answer Vader was right over her torturing her at times throughout the movies and never once sensed she had the Force within her.

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So this is all based on EU but here goes

 

The Force is like a current that has eddies and ripples like any ripples.  Throw a few little pebbles in  the ripples bleed off before they get too far.  Drop a rock in and the ripples go a lot farther.  That is how the Force can be viewed.  The Force Exile has learned how to leave as little impact on this current  as possible.  A Force Emergent will have a little bit more of an impact but as everyone keeps pointing out may not have that much power to really cause major ripples.  Finally you have overt and covert powers.  Most of the Force Exile powers are covert and the ones they have listed for Emergent are overt and covert as well.  The thing that really makes an impact is a fully trained force user which neither one of them are.  Going off another analogy of currents this time power you have positive (light) and  negative (dark) and when a force user draws on them such as an emergent or exile (or both) they only draw off a little power from one or the other.  A Jedi will probably be able to draw more a knight more so and a master even more then that.  So everyone force wise is plugged into the same current and you feel a few trickles here or there it could be a force  user or it  could just be a Hutt really entertaining himself as ALL life has an impact on that current for good or ill.  However, when a Jedi uses the force to take out a stormtrooper garrison he probably pulling on that current full force.  See Jedi from the Clone War Era never learned restraint really, and why should they?  They had nothing to fear with the Force as their ally and the government on their side.

 

Now why didn't Jedi just go hide and set up a secret training base?  Well most Jedi had learned from the past and knew that such things had one of two things happen they fell to corruption due to the fact that one of the edict is there is no ignorance there is knowledge and keeping secrets is akin to ignorance (look at KOTOR 2). Or two they would get too big and someone or something would slip and they would all get blasted.  The EU has an example of a group called the Eleven who were survivors of Order 66 and they tried to organize a rebellion and take back the Republic.  They failed and they all died rather badly from what I understand.  Obi-Wan and Yoda both hid on planets that they or someone else had confronted a dark sider on that would mask  their presence.  There were other survivors of the Order 66 and they got the message from Obi-Wan in Episode three when he recoded the beacon.  Most took the hint and went and hid far from the core worlds where the Emperor and Vader mainly operated.  Based on EU and some of the FFG books  so far there is a Jedi in hiding on Bespin plus a force user, there are two Jedi hiding in Hutt Space, there is one out in the Corporate Sector, and at least three others bouncing around somewhere in the outer rim.  Now we have Kanon and the young kid with a sling shot in Rebels.  They never established what happened to Ahsoka but she did leave the Order during the war.  You also had a very old Jedi Master on Yavin 4 who was in a trance for a very long time if the EU is to be believed.  

 

Wait what about only canon stuff? Leia there is your answer Vader was right over her torturing her at times throughout the movies and never once sensed she had the Force within her.

 

I don't care about the EU, because too much of it is terrible, terrible drek. I'd like to be able to find the gems in the rough, but I can't bring myself to slog through crap that reads like an 8-year old's fan fiction attempt. I was done after the book with the Sun Crusher in it. What a stupid, stupid ship.

 

Now, to your point about Leia-Vader, that is interesting, but I would point out Leia wasn't actively using the Force at all. Later, when Luke is using the Force to attack the Death Star, Vader knows almost immediately what is going on.

 

"The Force is strong with this one."

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1. Leia had no skill with the Force. She had a lot of potential, sure, but that was untapped. She wasn't aware she was Force sensitive, she had never - consciously or subconsciously - tapped into her connection with the Force. It was all latent potential, and that's why Vader didn't sense anything.

 

2. With Luke, Vader could sense his strength (however untapped) in the Force over the Death Star because Luke was actively using it. He did not sense Luke while they were both aboard the Death Star, although that could have been due to Obi-Wan's presence overshadowing Luke's.

 

3. Obi-Wan, being a very powerful Jedi, was someone Vader could sense by being in the same hangar bay as him even when Obi-Wan didn't actively use the Force.

 

The point I'm making here is that the more you use the Force, the easier it becomes for others to notice. And when you reach a certain level of strength and skill, others can tell just by being in the general vicinity.

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