The cost (in points) for getting the choice of initiative

[DagobahDave 1,621]

Player A shows up to the tourney with a 99-point squad. Player B shows up with a 98-point squad and gets the choice of initiative.

 

Essentially, the choice of initiative comes down to a bid. You bid 1 or more of your squad points in the hopes that your opponent bid less. In many cases, a bid of 1 point is all you need to secure the choice of initiative.

 

My question to you is: is the cost -- and I mean squad points cost -- of trying to secure the choice to take or pass initiative (I'll forgive you for just calling it "initiative" for the rest of this thread) too low, too high, just fine the way it is?

 

Is initiative (the choice to take it or pass it) really worth just 1% of your squad points? What if you needed to "bid" a full 5 or more points than your opponent in order secure the choice of initiative -- would that seem more appropriately priced for what you get? Initiative is sometimes the most important difference between winning and losing. Paying just 1% of your squad points for that advantage? I'm not sure that's priced appropriately now -- and I suppose it never was. It just didn't seem underpriced to me until the new rules change and everybody saying how important of a change it was.

Edited April 16, 2014 by DagobahDave

[BahnCalamari 138]

It is whatever the meta dictates it to be at the time. I am fine with that personally.

If I really want to be able to shoot first I will make my bid with higher PS pilots.

[Shaadea 258]

Initiative never was about shooting, since there's the simultaneous fire rule. It's about maneuvering, action denial, availability of actions (think about target locks on alpha strikes) and asteroid setup. And that can be a very important part of the game. So the new change is quite a bit here; and I believe to be more on the "sure side" of initiative you will have to bid 2 points from now on, the 1 point will not do it anymore.

[Buhallin 4,520]

There are plenty of cases where initiative order matters for shooting outside of simultaneous fire.

 

I think most of the "Game is won or lost by initiative" comments are overblown selective memory.  Yes, it's an advantage, and yes, you may have to fly differently, but the game lost just because of initiative?  Sorry, but if your squad can't win without specifically going first or second, it's your squad design that cost you the game, not the initiative roll.

 

I don't think you can put a set cost on it, because the value is determined not just by your squad, but by your opponent.  What's initiative worth in a TIE swarm mirror where your Academy Pilots can kill the opposing Howlrunner before their APs shoot?  Lots.  What's initiative worth in a TIE swarm facing a Triple-9s Vader/Fel/Turr list?  Worse than nothing, because any points you committed to try and get initiative are wasted.

[Kaxel Vofer 121]

Remember that, with the extra point, if you use the higher pilots, you could use Veteran Instincts, so it could be useful to get the first shoot, greettings

[markcsoul 2,122]

Iniative can be nice, but I rather use every spare point I can then intentially knock a point or two off just to get initiative.

[Stone37 3,353]

Iniative can be nice, but I rather use every spare point I can then intentially knock a point or two off just to get initiative.

 

I agree.  I hope and pray I go up against a 98 point squad so I have a 2 point advantage over my opponent!

[SoulCrusherEx 96]

its like in warhammer 40k u roll for initiative then u decide if u want to keep it + enemy can try to steal initiative from u if he rolls a 6.

 

there are some squads that do not rely on initiative like squads full with high ps pilots that dont fly early and wait for the enemy to come to them to strike with lots of target locking secondaries.

 

where others rely on initiative cause of the low pilit skill usage ;P well both have thier + and -

[Hrathen 1,463]

I have never gone to a tournament with less than 100 points spent. The new rules allowing you to choose or not might make it more tempting. But there are so many good 1 point upgrades. Veteran Instincts, Adrenalin Rush are both great. I can imagine the possibility where I only have 1 or two points left and I don't have a free elite pilot upgrade, astromech, or crew upgrade slot. In that case would still likely upgrade on of my pilots to a pilot who costs 1 point more.

I guess I just don't care about initiative.

[TallTonyB 1,210]

Run bombers, you will care about whether or not you have initiative.

(Edited because I can't spell whether correctly it would seem)

Edited April 17, 2014 by TallTonyB

[Buhallin 4,520]

Run bombers, you will care about whether or not you have initiative.

(Edited because I can't spell whether correctly it would seem)

I actually kinda hate it when I see this comment.

 

Nobody - Bombers included - actually cares about initiative in and of itself.  What they care about is whether they move first, or last.  Initiative is a component of that, but it's entirely secondary to PS.  It also ignores the main reasons Bombers want to move last - to get their locks during the closing, without targets that are too close.  There are a number of ways to get around this - run higher PS Bombers, use Squad Leader or Jendon to allow later locking, run secondaries that don't fall off at range 1.

 

If the success or failure of a squad - ANY squad - depends entirely on whether or not you win an initiative roll, then it's a crap squadron.

 

And yes - I've run a 4x Bomber squad.  I've run it in two separate tournaments, one for a win, and you know how many times initiative has mattered?  I'll let you guess

[AlexW 2,902]

Initiative is going to be a concern and worth considering a bid when you are running a decent number of pilots right around the current PS level of the meta AND it makes a difference to your list in a significant way.

 

Of all my lists, my PS 4 bomber list is currently the one that I'm debating whether I shave off a point by swapping a particular upgrade, but I'm certainly not considering changing my ordnance loadout, so for me it's really worth just one point right now.

 

That said, I'm simply debating it as the list is a bit easier to play when I have initiative, but I may like the build enough that I don't think it's worth the point anyway.

Edited April 17, 2014 by AlexW

[AlexW 2,902]

Run bombers, you will care about whether or not you have initiative.

(Edited because I can't spell whether correctly it would seem)

I actually kinda hate it when I see this comment.

Nobody - Bombers included - actually cares about initiative in and of itself. What they care about is whether they move first, or last. Initiative is a component of that, but it's entirely secondary to PS. It also ignores the main reasons Bombers want to move last - to get their locks during the closing, without targets that are too close. There are a number of ways to get around this - run higher PS Bombers, use Squad Leader or Jendon to allow later locking, run secondaries that don't fall off at range 1.

I think most people use the shorthand "initiative" to describe what you're talking about here. I'd guess that most people understand that initiative (with the exception of newer players maybe) is really only going to come into play when we're talking about the PS issue, and I also tend to assume that people who talk about running bombers with regards to initiative are talking specifically about the advantage of going later to obtain more locks.

Beyond that, while your solutions are good ones, most are more significant changes to a list than simply shaving off a point or two somewhere (even SL while just two points, may present a significant change depending on how the list is constructed, but is certainly decent option in certain situations). The exception, though is with regard to higher PS. If people are having trouble getting locks because of timing and are running PS 2 pilots, then they should be considering gammas before trying for initiative and then inky initiative IF they feel like initiative makes a significant difference for them against lists at a similar PS.

Edited April 17, 2014 by AlexW

[Magnus Grendel 10,575]

Definitely agree here. "Initiative" is not necessarily the same as "Going First/Last" - yes, having the edge matters more to imperials because they want to be using boosts and barrel rolls to react to your movement.

 

However, they also have access to cheap, high pilot skill characters and lots of elite squadrons with an elite pilot talents that could be veteran instincts. Rather than deciding whether to drop a few points in the hopes of getting initiative, I'd much rather swap up to 2nd tier named pilots and Royal Guard and know I'm going before anyone without a nametag.

[Wayne Argabright 1,544]

maybe i am one of those newbs that are still confused, but shouldn't initiative choice go to the pilot with the highest PS??? what does having a smaller squad size have to do with initiative??  granted one might have to sacrifice an upgrade to get it but still thinking it would be better tied by having higher PS pilots determine initiative and if they want to pass on it?(yes I am aware of the new rule)  just my 2 cents.... That way if you want initiative choice you would want to field high PS pilots which would make more sense to me at-least? I think FFG ALMOST got this one right..lol  but tied it to squad size rather than PS...  although bundling it to squad size does make for some interesting choices as well..  still better than it was when one had no choice...

[AlexW 2,902]

maybe i am one of those newbs that are still confused, but shouldn't initiative choice go to the pilot with the highest PS??? what does having a smaller squad size have to do with initiative??  granted one might have to sacrifice an upgrade to get it but still thinking it would be better tied by having higher PS pilots determine initiative and if they want to pass on it?(yes I am aware of the new rule)  just my 2 cents.... That way if you want initiative choice you would want to field high PS pilots which would make more sense to me at-least? I think FFG ALMOST got this one right..lol  but tied it to squad size rather than PS...  although bundling it to squad size does make for some interesting choices as well..  still better than it was when one had no choice...

The initiative rule only determines who goes first when two opposing pilots have the SAME PS. Otherwise, PS does determine when each ship shoots and when each ship activates in the maneuver phase. So you already build in when you go against most lists in terms of your PS. It becomes how much you value having initiative when you face one or more pilots of the same pilot skill as yours.

[hothie 1,719]

From what I have seen, many players are playing interceptor squads right now, and generally, interceptors don't want initiative. So they are going to build at 100 points anyway. Many players build squads that don't rely on initiative, or certainly don't care if they don't have it.

[eagle1361 60]

From what I have seen, many players are playing interceptor squads right now, and generally, interceptors don't want initiative. So they are going to build at 100 points anyway. Many players build squads that don't rely on initiative, or certainly don't care if they don't have it.

But that's the issue now. I could be playing against that interceptor squad, bid for the initiative choice, and then give it that squad initiative whether it wanted it or not. Could put that squad at a disadvantage.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

From what I have seen, many players are playing interceptor squads right now, and generally, interceptors don't want initiative. So they are going to build at 100 points anyway. Many players build squads that don't rely on initiative, or certainly don't care if they don't have it.

But that's the issue now. I could be playing against that interceptor squad, bid for the initiative choice, and then give it that squad initiative whether it wanted it or not. Could put that squad at a disadvantage.

If you want to move last, your choice used to be to build to 100 and hope your opponent either built short or lost the coin toss. Now if you want to move last, you build short at 99 or 98. You won't always win your bid, but you have substantially more control. It's not really a disadvantage.

[TallTonyB 1,210]

Run bombers, you will care about whether or not you have initiative.

(Edited because I can't spell whether correctly it would seem)

I actually kinda hate it when I see this comment.

 

Nobody - Bombers included - actually cares about initiative in and of itself.  What they care about is whether they move first, or last.  Initiative is a component of that, but it's entirely secondary to PS.  It also ignores the main reasons Bombers want to move last - to get their locks during the closing, without targets that are too close.  There are a number of ways to get around this - run higher PS Bombers, use Squad Leader or Jendon to allow later locking, run secondaries that don't fall off at range 1.

 

If the success or failure of a squad - ANY squad - depends entirely on whether or not you win an initiative roll, then it's a crap squadron.

 

And yes - I've run a 4x Bomber squad.  I've run it in two separate tournaments, one for a win, and you know how many times initiative has mattered?  I'll let you guess

Well, when your two main bomber PS are 2 and 4 same as most popular rebel ships... Yes it matters. I usually do run something like Jonas with squad leader but Jendon is too much for what I run usually. I'm not saying bomber fleets fall apart if they don't have initiative, but you would be stupid to not care about whether you have it or not with a fleet like that. And for the record I've taken my bomber fleet to the top four in a handful of tournaments including one at FFG and a store championship.

[Duraham 750]

 

 

Run bombers, you will care about whether or not you have initiative.

(Edited because I can't spell whether correctly it would seem)

I actually kinda hate it when I see this comment.

 

Nobody - Bombers included - actually cares about initiative in and of itself.  What they care about is whether they move first, or last.  Initiative is a component of that, but it's entirely secondary to PS.  It also ignores the main reasons Bombers want to move last - to get their locks during the closing, without targets that are too close.  There are a number of ways to get around this - run higher PS Bombers, use Squad Leader or Jendon to allow later locking, run secondaries that don't fall off at range 1.

 

If the success or failure of a squad - ANY squad - depends entirely on whether or not you win an initiative roll, then it's a crap squadron.

 

And yes - I've run a 4x Bomber squad.  I've run it in two separate tournaments, one for a win, and you know how many times initiative has mattered?  I'll let you guess

Well, when your two main bomber PS are 2 and 4 same as most popular rebel ships... Yes it matters. I usually do run something like Jonas with squad leader but Jendon is too much for what I run usually. I'm not saying bomber fleets fall apart if they don't have initiative, but you would be stupid to not care about whether you have it or not with a fleet like that. And for the record I've taken my bomber fleet to the top four in a handful of tournaments including one at FFG and a store championship.

 

Not just for Bombers, but also for TIEints, especially when considering pilots like Soontir or Carnor, whom happen to have the same PS as most commonly played rebel named pilots (Wedge, Han, Luke respectively), as well as themselves. Replacing PTL with VI for either of them is simply out of the question, and in the event of a mirror matchup, the side moving last has an extremely high chance of winning.

Even if you look at the other TIEint pilots, the same story still applies. Lorrir vs any PS5s, Royal TIEs + PTL agains any PS6s, and once again Veteran Instincts is not a viable option at all.

[Shanester40 108]

My gaming pal was only just saying the same thing to me as we work on our pre-tourney lists. He was trying to convince me to drop an upgrade making my pints total 97-99 depending on my choice in order to gamble winning the initiative. I can see it being worth it to get the lower PS pilots the chance to get shots off first!

[AlexW 2,902]

My gaming pal was only just saying the same thing to me as we work on our pre-tourney lists. He was trying to convince me to drop an upgrade making my pints total 97-99 depending on my choice in order to gamble winning the initiative. I can see it being worth it to get the lower PS pilots the chance to get shots off first!

But a some point, if you are cutting points you're in the realm of being able to upgrade at least one pilot's PS anyway simply by going to the next step, sometimes more, which is far better than bidding three points for initiative.

[DagobahDave 1,621]

 what does having a smaller squad size have to do with initiative?? 

 

That's an excellent question.

 

Why is the choice of initiative tied to the points you spend on your squad?

 

Why does a "slimmer" squad get the choice to go first? Why does a 1-point-slimmer squad get that choice?

 

What's the big deal with a 1-point difference in squad totals, and is that really a big enough sacrifice to be worth gaining the right to make the initiative choice?

 

That is the topic of this thread. Although I'm happy to read "initiative theory" it's not really what this thread is about. The value of initiative isn't what I'm asking (since players will determine the value of everything in this game). I'm trying to get your opinions on whether the cost of gaining the initiative choices appropriately high enough (since the game designers have dictated its cost).

 

A 3-point difference is a more significant chunk out of a 100-point squad -- I could see a 3-point sacrifice being enough to win the right to choose initiative. Anything less than that and I'd call it a wash; flip a coin for initiative and start the game because your squads are close enough in point-cost that it shouldn't matter. 

 

The way I see it, if the initiative choice is a significant factor in your strategy, you should probably pay a significant price for it. A 1-point difference just doesn't seem significant to me.

 

But carry on.

[Duraham 750]

The thing is that if I could, I would. Eg. If im at 99 points, I'd easily pump a Saber into a Royal, or Academy into Obsidian. But many times, Im unable to. Either because Im tied to the named pilot himself and I cannot grant him VI (eg. Lorrir, Soontir), or because I only have 1 point more and not 2 (eg. Blue vs Dagger, Scimitar vs Gamma)

as for the whole "how much does initiative cost?", it is simply a blind bid thingy, so pay however much you deem worth. I only worry about the whole metagame escalating out of control, and we'd get 97 and 96 point squads. I doubt we'd go beyond 96 points though tbh, 96 = 8x academy TIEs