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Darth Pseudonym

Blast and Stun, Damage and Wounds... Official clarification would be nice.

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I'm hoping to get some kind of official input on this, so while I don't mean to say "Don't reply to this thread" or anything, I really don't want it to devolve into hair-splitting analyses of the rulebook's text.

 

I noticed today that the Blast quality says on a hit, it deals so-many wounds to those Engaged with the main target.  On a miss, it deals damage to everyone around.

 

Similiarly, the Stun quality (as in shock gloves, not to be confused with Stun Setting) deals so-many strain to the target.

 

Now, weapons and similar effects always say they deal damage.  Based on the description of how attacks work (on page 205 of the core book), I get a sense that damage and wounds are game terms that have specific, separate meanings.  It says (in step 6) that you reduce damage taken by your soak value, and then suffer wounds equal to the remainder.

 

So is the blast quality intended to deal damage, which each target then soaks?  Or does it directly cause wounds, as the text literally says, ignoring soak entirely?

 

 

On a similiar line of inquiry, what about Stun, how should that be handled?  Do you resolve the main attack's damage, and then if Stun activates, deal X strain with no chance of avoidance?  Or does the Stun damage add to the main attack in some way?  Or is it a separate source of damage that gets soaked separately from the initial attack?  I recall that in the beta it specifically said the stun effect's strain ignored soak, so I had been assuming it continued to work pretty much like that.

Edited by Darth Pseudonym

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Are you quoting a source?  Why does "inflicts strain" mean one thing while "suffers wounds" means a different thing?  (Actually I'm not sure how you'd handle Stun if it didn't ignore soak.)

Edited by Darth Pseudonym

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The combat section when read in its entirety you learn the words 'damage' and 'wounds' are essentially synonymous. So Blast says nothing of bypassing soak.

 

Shock gloves aren't clear.  The damage section says soak doesn't reduce strain suffered by a target and then cites the Stun damage weapon quality as an exception but doesn't differentiate between Active and Passive. Now unarmed combat and passive stun make a point of saying soak applies, but active leaves that out.  So like I said, it seems like it should be applied straight to strain, but it isn't terribly clear. 

Edited by 2P51

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The combat section when read in its entirety you learn the words 'damage' and 'wounds' are essentially synonymous. so Blast says nothing of bypassing soak.

I don't really see anything off the top of my head that makes me think they're synonyms. There's one line in the early part of the Soak section where it says "if soak reduces the damage to zero... the character takes no damage", rather than "no wounds" as it says up on Combat Checks #6. But since the one in Soak seems kind of tautological anyway, I tend to dismiss it as just an editing glitch.

It seems to me that they're pretty consistent about saying "damage" for pre-soak, damage-dealt-by-weapon sort of things, and "wounds" for post-soak, you-really-did-take-this-hit.

Shock gloves aren't clear.  The damage section says soak doesn't reduce strain suffered by a target and then cites the Stun damage weapon quality as an exception but doesn't differentiate between Active and Passive.

That's a good point, it says strain doesn't get soaked unless specified. The passive quality is called Stun Damage, which they call out, while the active is Stun and thus doesn't get soaked. Good catch.

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Think of it like a flow chart.  Damage is on top.  Wounds and Strain are two paths that descend from Damage. Damage can be either or.  All the Blast description is telling you is that the damage caused by Blast effect is considered Wounds, not Strain, it isn't telling you that it bypasses soak and the book is pretty good about specifying when something bypasses soak.  Except for Active Stun that is.

Edited by 2P51

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I'm hoping to get some kind of official input on this

The devs don't read the forums. I suggest submitting a customer service email, which someone at FFG gets directly and forwards on to whomever is appropriate to answer it.

 

 

Sometimes it takes him a while, but Sam Stewart usually answers all emails regarding rules questions, especially when what's written isn't completely clear.  Definitely give this a shot. I would be very interested to know one way or another what he says.

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Well... The stun damage are reduce by the soak. This rule is described in the Item qualities, page 157, with Stun damage (passive) of the Core rulebook.

 

 

... In this case, the weapon deal damage as strain instead of wounds. This damage still reduced by a target's soak.

 

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A Flak Vest specifies that it has a soak value of 2 verses damage from the Blast Quality.  I suggest that that answers your first question.

Well, his initial post here sprang from a discussion of the explosive rounds for the Model 38 in Enter the Unknown being a waste of credits since it traded Pierce 3 for Blast 5.  But given how he runs minion groups in regards to Blast (from his posts, it seems that Blast would only apply to the minion group once as a whole instead as individual targets), he could be quite biased in wanting some means to make Blast worthwhile in light of how he runs minions, as currently said weapon quality is just a hair's breadth above completely worthless from what his posts over at the d20 Radio forums indicate.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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A Flak Vest specifies that it has a soak value of 2 verses damage from the Blast Quality.  I suggest that that answers your first question.

Good catch! So blast does not ignore soak.

 

Yeah, that's pretty solid evidence.

 

Unless one takes the very skeptical approach that sourcebook writers don't fully grasp the rules of the system themselves and thus stuff not in the core rulebook shouldn't be trusted for accuracy.  And sadly, there's at least a couple posters here that seem to have taken that stance.  I'm not one of those people, although I do seem to have more faith in the FFG design/writing team getting it right (or close enough to right).

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If you submit the question, can you also ask if the pierce X quality or the breach quality of the weapon applies also to its blast damage?

No, I already put it in by the time you asked this. But in the past I have had pierce/breach affect blast damage, and in light of this answer I will continue to do so. 

 

Well, his initial post here sprang from a discussion of the explosive rounds for the Model 38 in Enter the Unknown being a waste of credits since it traded Pierce 3 for Blast 5. But given how he runs minion groups in regards to Blast (from his posts, it seems that Blast would only apply to the minion group once as a whole instead as individual targets)

Dono, I never said that. I gave an analysis of two ways I've seen people run minions; my way, which is as individuals who each take blast damage and each soak the damage independently, and just happen to apply the damage to the same wound threshold; and the other way, which is treating the minion group as a single entity who takes one instance of blast damage and soaks it once as a group. I discussed both option because I didn't want that thread to turn into a discussion of how minions and blasts interact, which has been discussed to death on other threads already.

he could be quite biased in wanting some means to make Blast worthwhile in light of how he runs minions, as currently said weapon quality is just a hair's breadth above completely worthless from what his posts over at the d20 Radio forums indicate.

I guess it's not that terrible if you can get several successes to increase the per-target damage. I tend to think of blast in terms of the "trigger on miss", which is rarely more than a love-tap against most minions.

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I probably would have it hit them individually provided they are engaged with the primary target, which besides inside a vehicle, a very narrow hall, or an elevator It might not mean the whole group anyway.

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Seems like Blast should trigger on every minion individually.

 

Really? Then does soak apply for each minion too?

 

Because otherwise one good hit with a grenade is going to wipe an entire group of minions, which seems slightly overpowered...

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Why is everyone so worried about minions going down like wheat? That's what they are supposed to do! It's cinematic.

Blast only triggers on targets Engaged with the main target, which is almost never going to hit every minion anyway. It's really not overpowered.

 

If you want uber-minions, then don't have Blast trigger on each one. I'm pretty sure it's your game after you pay for the book.

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Seems like Blast should trigger on every minion individually.

 

Really? Then does soak apply for each minion too?

 

Because otherwise one good hit with a grenade is going to wipe an entire group of minions, which seems slightly overpowered...

 

That actually would be very much in keeping with what minions are in this game: disposable nameless mooks that get taken down with relative ease by the heroes.

 

If the GM as their minion group clustered together enough to be deemed Engaged with one another, then yes a single grenade should be able to take them all out on a decent attack roll.

 

That could be why the rules don't say anything on the subject of what range the minions in a group have to be from each other in order to qualify as being a minion group.  Personally, I run them as being in tight enough quarters to count as being Engaged, but nothing in the rules says that has to be the case.  In theory, a GM could set the minions in a group to be at Long Range from each other, and though odd it may be, there's nothing in the rules to contradict the GM.

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