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akenatum

Draw their fire and ion weapons... Single crit roll

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Let's say DTF does trigger first? I still don't see that it matters.

Roll to attack, get a crit and 2 blanks

Defender rolls no evades, attack hits with one crit result

DTF goes off, one crit now gets assigned to the other ship, no hit/crit results are assigned to target

Ion cannon resolves, target receives one damage and an ion token and then all hits are cancelled, including the crit assigned to the other ship

End result, target is ironed, and DTF ship is undamaged, same as if the ion effect resolved completely first.

What's the issue?

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What's the issue?

Well the question becomes this.

Does DTF break out of the normal process for damage dealing or not? Since the card says you suffer the uncanceled crit, do you do it right now because that's part of the DTF effect, or does that get held until step 7.

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Respectfully disagree.

 

You have to follow the effects printed on the Ion Turret card first, from the start to the finish.  The Ion Turret has a replacement effect for all hits rolled and this must be applied before you consider triggered effects from other cards.

 

dvor already took a run at this, but I'll jump in too.

 

The ion cannon's effect is not unique.  It competes with other effects, just like any other, based on the timing rules.  In this case, both the ion and DTF trigger on the attack hit, at which point you resolve them per the timing order, in this case by initiative.

 

What you're saying is actually very wrong, and can lead to several other pretty serious misunderstandings.  For example, by the way you're thinking about this, no other effects can trigger until the ion cannon can finish doing its thing.  I hesitate to use Kath on this, because the FAQ entry is rather poorly worded and I'm afraid it's going to lead to more confusion, but...  If you attack with an ion cannon and the defender cancels a {Critical Hit} result, they get a stress before the ion resolves and cancels everything.  You don't wait to finish the ion cannon's process, and then see what else is left/happened.

 

Many, many effects in X-wing can and do branch off each other, frequently triggering on the same events.  That's why we have rules for resolving which of those goes first when they do :)

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The real question is why would you want to do this? DTF specifically requires the targeted ship to have been hit, so you are taking a Critical hit for nothing as the Ion effect will still happen.

As of today, there's not.

 

But there could easily be an ability which allows a ship to do something when it receives that result.  It would make a good combo with DTF if such a thing ever existed.

 

Right now, though, I can't think of any reason why you would, making it a mostly academic discussion.  Well, that and a teachable moment concerning effect triggers and timing in X-wing :D

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I hesitate to use Kath on this, because the FAQ entry is rather poorly worded and I'm afraid it's going to lead to more confusion, but...

Kath is a good example though. It's an example of how one effect can interrupt another and be inserted in the stack of effects to resolve. The real question becomes, which point in the stack does the effect get inserted, and as you point out there's rules for that already.

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Roll to attack, get a crit and 2 blanks

Defender rolls no evades, attack hits with one crit result

DTF goes off, one crit now gets assigned to the other ship, no hit/crit results are assigned to target

Ion cannon resolves, target receives one damage and an ion token and then all hits are cancelled, including the crit assigned to the other ship

End result, target is ironed, and DTF ship is undamaged, same as if the ion effect resolved completely first.

Could be.

 

That leads to the question at which time the two effects (ion and DTF) trigger:

 

a) during compare results

b) after compare results but before deal damage

c) during deal damage

 

If a or b then the the above suggestion seems correct. If c then ...

 

version 1)

1) DTF moves crit to different ship

2) ship suffers damage

3) ion deals damage, ion token and cancels remaining (zero) dice

 

version 2)

1) DTF moves crit to different ship

2) ion deals damage, ion token and cancels all dice

3) no die remaining to inflict damage on DTF-ship

 

 

"DTF-ship suffers damage" is an effect played by the defender, ion is an effect played by the attacker. So I suppose these get resolved in order of initiative?

 

 

Edit:

And yes, thee defender has nothing to gain by activating DTF. That was agreed upon on page 1. The entire discussion is purely academic.

Edited by dvor

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I hesitate to use Kath on this, because the FAQ entry is rather poorly worded and I'm afraid it's going to lead to more confusion, but...

Kath is a good example though. It's an example of how one effect can interrupt another and be inserted in the stack of effects to resolve. The real question becomes, which point in the stack does the effect get inserted, and as you point out there's rules for that already.

 

Yeah, the timing for Kath is a perfect example, which is why I brought her out anyway.  But the FAQ entry on her and ion weapons is one of those that's very easy to misread if you don't understand the context of the questions that spawned it.  There are a few FAQ entries like this that aren't clear or, worse, actively misleading (the HLC/reroll one is the gold standard for "You just confused us more").

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If this is simply an academic piece, then I postulate the following:

 

When is a crit a crit? When a crit result is rolled but not canceled or when you suffer the crit damage?

 

If you want to activate DTF and pull off the crit result, then what would happen is DTF would resolve, giving the ship that used it a crit, because DTF says " you may suffer one of the [crit] results" which would mean that you now suffer a crit result because you chose to pull it off of the ship that was hit. Now, Ion weapon cancels all dice (but not the damage pulled as DTF has caused the damage to go into effect) and the ion weapon effect now assigns one hit and one ion token to the hit ship.

 

The net effect is the DTF ship takes a crit and the hit ship takes a damage and ion token.

 

That being said, I don't believe that DTF could pull the crit off of the sequence running from the ion weapon effect.

You cannot do part of a card effect, you have to do it all to gain its effect. Saying that you can choose which one you want to do first is wrong, one is already going through its effect so you can't then choose to stop it, activate another, then continue.

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Respectfully disagree.

 

You have to follow the effects printed on the Ion Turret card first, from the start to the finish.  The Ion Turret has a replacement effect for all hits rolled and this must be applied before you consider triggered effects from other cards.

 

dvor already took a run at this, but I'll jump in too.

 

The ion cannon's effect is not unique.  It competes with other effects, just like any other, based on the timing rules.  In this case, both the ion and DTF trigger on the attack hit, at which point you resolve them per the timing order, in this case by initiative.

 

What you're saying is actually very wrong, and can lead to several other pretty serious misunderstandings.  For example, by the way you're thinking about this, no other effects can trigger until the ion cannon can finish doing its thing.  I hesitate to use Kath on this, because the FAQ entry is rather poorly worded and I'm afraid it's going to lead to more confusion, but...  If you attack with an ion cannon and the defender cancels a {Critical Hit} result, they get a stress before the ion resolves and cancels everything.  You don't wait to finish the ion cannon's process, and then see what else is left/happened.

 

Many, many effects in X-wing can and do branch off each other, frequently triggering on the same events.  That's why we have rules for resolving which of those goes first when they do :)

 

  And in this scenario there happens to be a weird rules interaction where the ion weapon would cause 1 damage, and the DTF would cause 1 crit, off of 1 damage dice. A truly weird rules interaction.

 

  My view is that a crit is only a crit when it moves to the suffer damage step and you now have to deal out that face up damage card. Some will say it is when the crit was not canceled, and I can see that literal point of view, but there still could be something that modifies the damage, as you enter the suffer damage stage, that negates the crit effect and that makes me think that a crit is only a crit when it enters the suffer damage step and is about to go into effect. That is where a crit is a crit.

 

  But I still stand by my statement that an ion weapon can't generate a crit (on its own). 

 

And this academic piece is finding flaws where we already **** well knew there were so why are we continuing with it?

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If you want to activate DTF and pull off the crit result, then what would happen is DTF would resolve, giving the ship that used it a crit, because DTF says " you may suffer one of the [crit] results" which would mean that you now suffer a crit result because you chose to pull it off of the ship that was hit. 

You truncate the text of DTF at an important part there, though.  Continuing: "you may suffer one of the uncanceled {Critical Hit} results instead of the target ship."

 

Emphasis mine, and it's an important bit.  This could easily mean that when the result would be suffered at some point in the future, you take that damage instead of the target, but when the target would normally suffer that damage.  That's not until Step 7.

 

 

You cannot do part of a card effect, you have to do it all to gain its effect. Saying that you can choose which one you want to do first is wrong, one is already going through its effect so you can't then choose to stop it, activate another, then continue.

This is wrong on several points.  Yes, you must complete the full card effect, but part of that effect can set up other effects which may occur later or be subject to another trigger.  The Ion Cannon sets up exactly such an effect - "If this attack hits the target ship..." is a separate effect which is subject to standard trigger and timing rules.  It doesn't get any particular precedence just because the attack was initiated with the ion cannon.

 

More importantly, you can actually pause an effect to process another one.  We pointed out one above, with Kath.  Chewie 

is another obvious one, in both his incarnations - his ability kicks in in the middle of processing damage, which is (by your theory here) a single ability which would preclude any other being used.

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So what exactly are you saying here Buhallin?

 

Does DTF pull of the crit or does it not?

 

I originally stated that the ion weapon effect would never produce the crit for the hit ship to suffer so DTF would never be able to resolve, even though it does have a trigger event during the ion weapons resolution.

 

Looking strictly at this from an academic point of view, if the crit is a crit from uncanceled dice (so the compare dice results in step 6), then the crit is carried over to the DTF ship and enacted. By choosing the DTF (I think that we can assume the optional 'may' is optioned for this argument) then the DTF ship suffers the crit effect as it pulled the crit before it could be resolved on the intended target (the fact of which it was about to be converted into a regular hit doesn't come into play at the suffer damage step as DTF was enacted before this point because its trigger is in step 6 'compare results'). 

 

The other side of this is that a crit is only a crit in the suffer damage step, which would make DTF look for the crit here, but the ion weapon converts it to a hit, so DTF now has nothing to pull and it fails to resolve.

 

There are two possibilities that I can see here.

Edited by Sergovan

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I've said several times it could go either way, depending on how DTF actually functions, and we don't really have any information to point to one way or another.

 

The problem at this point is that several people (including you) are putting forward some very, VERY wrong foundational interpretations of how abilities and timing work.  Statements like "a crit is only a crit when..." are pretty much gibberish, and only confusing everything more.

 

There are three elements to damage: dice results, damage, and cards.  Dice results turn into damage.  Damage turns into cards.  A specific type is always exactly what it is.

 

The actual result from DTF depends not on whether "a crit is a crit" at some given point in time.  It depends on how you actually resolve DTF.  I've explained that several times now, not going to go into it again.

 

So, to summarize:

- Abilities can indeed interrupt each other

- Being in a secondary weapon attack does not stop other abilities from triggering

- The Ion Cannon and DTF have the same trigger, so resolve in an order determined by initiative per timing rules

- Three pieces of damage: Dice results, damage, and cards, each leads to the next

- DTF may bring a result that resolves in the normal flow, or may cause a result to be fully resolved right then, we don't really know

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You truncate the text of DTF at an important part there, though.  Continuing: "you may suffer one of the uncanceled {Critical Hit} results instead of the target ship."

 

 

The fact that DTF triggers in the compare results step means that the results gets carried over and applied to the DTF ship, which means that the dice results are not canceled but stay in effect. DTF jumps in and reassigns the suffer damage step to another ship for the one crit result. That could lead to all sorts of weird paradoxical effects if this is how it runs.

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The FAQ for Kath Scarlet agrees with my position.

 

If you're attacking with the Ion Cannon Turret, pick the card up in your hand.  You now need to resolve its effect from start to finish before you can put that card down.  You can't leave the Ion Cannon Turret card and switch to another card (Kath, DTF) until the Ion Cannon Turret's replacement effect resolves.

 

The Ion Cannon Turret card is not a triggered effect, it is a replacement effect (It starts with the word *If*.  Think BASIC programming, IF(condtion) Then(result) - it's printed that way on the card!  You can't interrupt an If-Then statement by jumping to a different triggered effect). 

 

- The Ion Cannon Turret card replaces the dice results with a special result.

 

DTF and Kath's abilities are both triggered effects (they start with the word *When*).

 

- Kath can't trigger, as stated in the FAQ, because the Ion Cannon Turret card replaced the dice rolls with a special result.

- DTF can trigger because the defender was hit, but it will have no effect because the defender did not suffer an uncancelled critical hit damage.

 

 

It appears that some of your collective confusion is due to thinking that every effect is 'triggered' when clearly some effects, such as the Ion Cannon Turret card, are not.

 

(Although it's a different game, perhaps some of you should read and learn the rules for Magic: The Gathering.  There are continuous effects, replacements effects and triggered effects.  The language used on the X-Wing cards borrows heavily from MTG.)

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(Although it's a different game, perhaps some of you should read and learn the rules for Magic: The Gathering.  There are continuous effects, replacements effects and triggered effects.  The language used on the X-Wing cards borrows heavily from MTG.)

Ugh.  No thanks.  Part of the problem is that too many people are trying to interpret how X-wing rules work in terms of how MtG rules work. 

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The FAQ for Kath Scarlet agrees with my position.

 

If you're attacking with the Ion Cannon Turret, pick the card up in your hand.  You now need to resolve its effect from start to finish before you can put that card down.  You can't leave the Ion Cannon Turret card and switch to another card (Kath, DTF) until the Ion Cannon Turret's replacement effect resolves.

 

<sigh>  See, Vanor?  This is why I didn't want to use Kath.

 

Here's the FAQ entry:

 

Q: If Kath Scarlet attacks with Ion Cannon, obtains a {Critical Hit} result, and then the Ion Cannon’s effect cancels all dice results, does Kath Scarlet’s ability trigger?

A: No. The defender must cancel the {Critical Hit} result via defense dice, an evade token, etc.

 

Note the two bolded sections, because they're the key to this particular ruling.

 

Here's how the flow goes, in two situations:

Attack: {Hit}, {Critical Hit}, {Critical Hit}

Defense: {Evade, Evade}

Result: The defender cancels a {Hit} and a {Critical Hit}.  This triggers Kath - note that the defender is canceling the result, just as the answer says.  The target gets a stress.  Then you compare results, and the target is still hit, triggering the ion cannon, which does 1 damage, gives the token, and cancels the {Critical Hit} result.

 

Attack: {Hit}, {Hit}, {Critical Hit}

Defense: {Evade, Evade}

Result: The defender cancels a {Hit} and {Hit}.  The target is hit, triggering the ion cannon which does 1 damage, gives the token, and cancels the {Critical Hit} result.  Kath does NOT trigger, because it is the ion cannon that canceled the effect, not Kath.

 

In other words, the FAQ entry there has nothing to do with some weapon replacement ability that stops anything else from triggering.  It is based entirely and solely on the face that Kath's ability requires the defender to cancel the results, and if your ion cannon is what does so, it's not the defender canceling the results so her ability won't trigger.

 

Honestly, it's late, I'm tired, and have other things I want to do tonight besides try and give an entire primer on how X-wing works to someone who really doesn't want to listen.  Your entire concept of the Ion Cannon - or any secondary weapon, for that matter - acting as a blanket replacement effect is simply wrong.  I could give you a whole host of examples of effects that chain from each other rather than locking out as you suggest (most of them start with Gunner or Cluster Missiles) but if you're not inclined to listen to some of the more experienced voices around here, I'll save the time.  I would encourage you to make a thorough reading of both the rules and FAQ though, because what you're suggesting not only simply doesn't exist, it's actively countered by numerous rulings.  Honestly, you don't even need to look at rulings.  If secondary weapons lock out any other abilities because they're replacement effects, how exactly do Jonus and Krassis work?

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I do here both agree and disagree with Buhallin here.

I agree on Kath Scarlet and cancelling hits. I disagree on the timing of DTF, I think it can't happen until the deal damage step. Until that point the target is not suffering the results of the [crit] dice.

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Well, we aren't exactly sure on the timing for exactly how to resolve DTF.

 

DTF and Ion both trigger at the same time.  There are two possible ways the timing on DTF could resolve:

 

1.  DTF moves the target of the result, but doesn't change the timing.  The {Critical Hit} result still resolves during Step 7, which is after the ion cancels everything

2.  DTF is a single effect, which causes the result to be resolved immediately when it is triggered.  If this is the case, if DTF went first it could cause the transferred result to resolve completely, including dealing damage, as part of triggering DTF.  In this case, the damage is dealt and done before the ion could cancel the results.

 

(2) Isn't really unlikely.  If we consider a wording that just said "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit, suffer one {Critical Hit} result" then it would resolve fully as in #2 - I don't think anyone would dispute that.  So the question is whether DTF moves a result that resolves in the normal flow, or causes the ship with DTF to take that result immediately.

 

It honestly could go either way.  But this:

 

In order for DTF to work, there has to be a crit to pull off of the hit ship. An ion attack will never produce a crit, so the hit ship will never be given a crit to resolve, ergo DTF will never be able to come into effect and resolve fully.

...is very solidly wrong.  There is indeed a critical result, and Ion and DTF both have an equal chance to get to it first.  The ion doesn't make the result irrelevant until its ability has a chance to resolve, which may be after DTF, which most certainly WILL have a chance to come into effect and resolve fully.  We just don't know exactly HOW it resolves.

In which phase are you suggesting DTF and ion cannon trigger?

combat phase

1. Declare Target

2. Roll Attack Dice

3. Modify Attack Dice

4. Roll Defense Dice

5. Modify Defense Dice

6. Compare Results

7. Deal Damage

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I do here both agree and disagree with Buhallin here.

I agree on Kath Scarlet and cancelling hits. I disagree on the timing of DTF, I think it can't happen until the deal damage step. Until that point the target is not suffering the results of the [crit] dice.

And that is why I asked the question When is a crit a crit?

 

Is it when you have a crit result that is uncanceled by defense dice (in compare results in step 6) or is it when you move into the suffer damage (which is step 7) and try to apply the dice results that is a crit?

 

DTF triggers in step 6, but does it wait for the results in step 7 to happen to the intended ship or does it take that step and process and apply step 7 to a completly different ship? I'm inclind to say yes, which means that the DTF pulls the crit off the intended ship and causes the DTF ship to suffer the crit because the crit can now not be affected by the ion weapon dice cancellation as it is now on another ship and being processed by a different effect. 

 

Its a really screwy way of looking at it, but looking at how the two cards are interacting, it makes for a paradoxial outcome for what should be a straight forward resolution.

 

However, if the crit becomes a crit in step 7, then DTF would not work, as the ion weapon effect would cancel the dice results here at this step and DTF would have nothing to pull off. 

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Is it when you have a crit result that is uncanceled by defense dice (in compare results in step 6)

For the sake of DTF I think it's step 6. Because it's triggered by a Hit result, just like Ion Turret is, and the Hit result is determined in step 6 not 7. The question is, does DTF skip in front of the dice canceling effect of Ion Turret or not.

As Buhallin it could go either way, and it should depend on the timing rules. Both DTF and Ion Turret deal with a Hit target, and what you can/must do with the attack dice.

This idea that somehow once you fire the Ion Turret you have to do everything on the card before any other effect can kick in is wrong though. That's the biggest issue IMO.

There's plenty of examples of effects being inserted in to the stack at various points. There is no rule that says you have or even are allowed do everything that a card says before some other effect comes into play, and may actually be resolved first.

Kath is again a good example of this, even if it confusing.

If there are uncanceled [crit] results when you process the Ion Turret effect, Kath does not cause stress because the Ion Turret effect canceled them, not the defending ship. However if as part of step 6 the defender does cancel a [crit] result with evade dice then they do get the stress.

This means that Ion Turret would have to go into effect in step 6, but it also means that there are effects that can jump in front of it.

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Is it when you have a crit result that is uncanceled by defense dice (in compare results in step 6)

For the sake of DTF I think it's step 6. Because it's triggered by a Hit result, just like Ion Turret is, and the Hit result is determined in step 6 not 7. The question is, does DTF skip in front of the dice canceling effect of Ion Turret or not.

Assuming the defender has initiative, DTF resolves prior to ion. In a normal scenario without DTF, ion resolves before the "deal damage" step checks for uncancelled dice.

 

In my current opinion the order of events is as follows:

1) DTF assings die to different ship.

2) Ion deals damage, ion token and cancels all dice.

3) "Deal damage" phase checks for uncancelled dice. There are none so there is no damage.

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But DTF says ALL dice are cancelled. So surely even the one assigned to the other ship? Can't have only some of all the dice results...

 

For what it is worth I think DTF mentions a ship being hit so you can't use it to take damage from other sources from a ship i.e. Can't take an asteroid roll, Darth Vader, or Proton Bomb dealt card. (And yes I know neither Darth nor Proton Bomb use dice)

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3) "Deal damage" phase checks for uncancelled dice. There are none so there is no damage.

I think you're right. I don't think anything about DTF really would cause step 7 to be completed for that one [crit] out of the normal order. So you'd do it as part of step 7 with all the other dice.

Since you rolled those dice as part of the Ion Turret attack, even though it's on a different ship I think it would get canceled by the Ion as part of that process during step 6. So when you get to 7, there's no damage to assign to anyone.

Also as you say, this depends on who has Init, if the attacker does then Ion Turret would go off before DTF. Which ends up with the same result either way. But again this is a purely academic discussion about timing.

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If you go all the way back to my very first post on this, I tend to lean towards the "DTF changes target but not timing" reading.  I don't think there's any question that the ion cannon will cancel the hit, and there shouldn't be any question on the resolution order.  The only thing at issue is how you resolve DTF.

 

I really do wish we could let this one go.  We're officially at the point where people aren't reading the whole thread, and are coming in very confused on what is a vague wording that has no impact.  Academic is interesting, but is there any element of it we haven't explored?

 

So barring the need for further clarification on fundamental timing in X-wing and how they lack of several of Magic's rules, is there anything actually unresolved that (a) we have the slightest potential to resolve, and (b) matters even the tiniest bit?

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