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akenatum

Draw their fire and ion weapons... Single crit roll

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So I have Luke with draw their fire, and a Biggs in range 1 who gets shot with an ion cannon/turret they roll a single crit attack roll through my defence....

Does Luke take the hit and the resulting ion token...

Does Luke take the damage but Biggs take the ion token....

Does Biggs take the damage and the ion token....

Does Luke take the damage and no one takes the ion token... (Least likely)

The pilots don't really matter just doing this for differentiation and they where the pilots I was using in the situation...

It first comes down to the trigger timing of the ion cannon/turret for its cancelling of the dice and the draw their fire transfer timing which are both on hit, and if the draw their fire does trigger first what happens to the resulting ion token....

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A critical hit remains uncancelled by the defense roll. So the attack hits.

 

Both effects trigger.

 

Biggs suffers 1 damage and gets an ion token from being hit by an ion weapon. Even if the critical hit were transferred to Luke, nothing can save Biggs from this fate, since he's the one hit by the attack, and both the single damage and the ion token are consequences of being hit by an ion weapon, In addition to the uncancelled critical hit.

 

Then, Luke would normally recieve the remaining uncancelled critical hit in place of Biggs, but since ion weapons cancel automatically all dice results after hitting, there's nothing left to tranfer to Luke. So Luke goes away unharmed from the attack, leaving Biggs worrying about those fighters...

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A critical hit remains uncancelled by the defense roll. So the attack hits.

 

Both effects trigger.

 

Biggs suffers 1 damage and gets an ion token from being hit by an ion weapon. Even if the critical hit were transferred to Luke, nothing can save Biggs from this fate, since he's the one hit by the attack, and both the single damage and the ion token are consequences of being hit by an ion weapon, In addition to the uncancelled critical hit.

 

Then, Luke would normally recieve the remaining uncancelled critical hit in place of Biggs, but since ion weapons cancel automatically all dice results after hitting, there's nothing left to tranfer to Luke. So Luke goes away unharmed from the attack, leaving Biggs worrying about those fighters...

Short answer: Draw Their Fire only cares about Damage. Ion Cannons only care about Hitting. If the Ion Cannon is shooting at something, then no damage reduction will prevent the 1 damage incoming, unless the Ion Cannon simply misses.

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After you realize that the attack hits the player chooses to trigger DTF. Now two things need to be done:

 

a) Assign damage and ion token to the target.

b) Ship with DTF suffers critical damage.

 

The player may choose to resolve these in any order. If he resolves a) first then there is nothing left for b) to do. Like Jehan Menasis explained. However, the player is entitled to resolve b) first. In that case DTF does indeed inflict critical damage while the target of the attack still suffers damage and ion token. So I do not recommend to resolve DTF first. But if you want to, you may.

 

 

Edit:

The above is wrong: There are two effects but no player chooses which one to resolve first.

Ion cannon is an effect from the attacker, DTF from the defender. If the defender chooses to activate DTF, the two effects resolve in order of initiative.

 

Scenario 1: Attacker has initiative

Ion damage resolves first. There is nothing left for DTF to do.

 

Scenario 2: Defender has initiative

DTF resolves first. So the ship with DTF suffers one critical damage. After that ion resolves so the target receives one damage and a ion token.

 

Summary: Do not use DTF.

Edited by dvor

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After you realize that the attack hits the player chooses to trigger DTF. Now two things need to be done:

 

a) Assign damage and ion token to the target.

b) Ship with DTF suffers critical damage.

 

The player may choose to resolve these in any order. If he resolves a) first then there is nothing left for b) to do. Like Jehan Menasis explained. However, the player is entitled to resolve b) first. In that case DTF does indeed inflict critical damage while the target of the attack still suffers damage and ion token. So I do not recommend to resolve DTF first. But if you want to, you may.

 

 

Edit:

The above is wrong: There are two effects but no player chooses which one to resolve first.

Ion cannon is an effect from the attacker, DTF from the defender. If the defender chooses to activate DTF, the two effects resolve in order of initiative.

 

Scenario 1: Attacker has initiative

Ion damage resolves first. There is nothing left for DTF to do.

 

Scenario 2: Defender has initiative

DTF resolves first. So the ship with DTF suffers one critical damage. After that ion resolves so the target receives one damage and a ion token.

 

Summary: Do not use DTF.

I don't think this is correct either.The ion effect always resolves first, so there is actually no [crit] result, and DTF can not even be invoked. Initiative has nothing to do with it.

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 The ion effect always resolves first ...

Why does it always resolve first?

 

Probably doesn't, now you come to mention it.  I'll let the rules lawyers debate this largely moot question here on out. Although it looks to me like the ion effect happens no matter what, and if you want to let one of your mates suffer a [crit] as well by using DTF then go for it.

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Dvor, you are missing a critical (pun intended) bit of information.

The text for the ion cannon (and turret) states, "If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage..." (emphasis mine). Note that the text does not state "suffers 1 damage or critical damage". This is important. The rulebook, on page 16, in the Suffering Damage section, is very careful to state "when a ship suffers damage or critical damage," while discussing damage resolution.

It is evident that the ion cannon (and turret) never deals critical damage, no matter if the dice have an uncanceled {crit} result. The uncanceled {crit} result only serves to meet the "if this attack hits" condition. Therefore, there is nothing for DTF to work with. The target ship only suffers damage, not critical damage.

Now I'm 2nd guessing myself, after mere minutes. The term "suffer damage" is always used to resolve damage resolution per page 16, so I'm now of the opinion that critical damage can happen with ions. (It must be too late for me. Need sleep.)

Edited by Lappenlocker

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The text for the ion cannon (and turret) states, "If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage..." (emphasis mine). Note that the text does not state "suffers 1 damage or critical damage".

I don't think that's relevant. DTF does not care about damage at all. It moves an uncancelled die result to a different ship. That die result then inflicts critical damage.

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The text for the ion cannon (and turret) states, "If this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage..." (emphasis mine). Note that the text does not state "suffers 1 damage or critical damage".

I don't think that's relevant. DTF does not care about damage at all. It moves an uncancelled die result to a different ship. That die result then inflicts critical damage.
Yeah... Way past my bedtime. Hitting the sack now. ;)

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Thanks for the responses so far guys, the thing we were struggling with was both trigger at the hit step, but looks like the general thought is in the above case Biggs take the hit and ion, and it's stupid to use DTF on luke as this would create extra damage on the other ship.

A rather rare scenario to be sure but would be good to have ffg put it in a FAQ.

Edited by akenatum

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Lots of odd circling around there :)

 

dvor's edited answer on the timing basically correct.  The Ion effect and DTF have the same trigger.  Since they're not owned by the same player, you resolve them in initiative order.

 

What I'm a little less sure of is whether (if you did it) the defender would actually suffer the damage.  It depends on how we resolve the "pulled" {Critical Hit} result - is it immediate, or do you resolve the damage flow normally?  I'm inclined to think you'd resolve it normally (since DTF just changes who suffers it, says nothing about changing the result timing), which means that even if you used DTF first, the Ion would cancel all results (including that pulled by DTF) before any of it was resolved.

 

But it's largely academic - if it does work the other way, there's absolutely no reason to ever do it, so how to resolve it shouldn't really matter.  I suppose if we get a ship at some point in the future that somehow benefits from that result it might matter...  But for now, not really.

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You can't get a critical result from an ion turret/cannon because no matter what you roll you have to cancel the dice results and assign 1 hit. Because the turret/cannon has to assign damage first, before DTF can even be used, the [crit] gets canceled and becomes a 1 normal hit (and an ion token), something that DTF can't pull away.

 

You have to resolve all of the ion effect first, then see if DTF can affect the result.

Edited by Sergovan

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You can't get a critical result from an ion turret/cannon because no matter what you roll you have to cancel the dice results and assign 1 hit.

If ion is resolved first: yes. If DTF is resolved first: no.

 

Because the turret/cannon has to assign damage first, before DTF can even be used ...

It has to assign damage first? Why?

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Ion effect works by determining if the attack hits and then assigns the damage before the suffer damage step. At the suffer damage step there is only ever one damage assigned and it is still the ion weapon effect still in play. Once you enter the suffer damage stage, the ion weapon effect has been resolved and DTF can now see if there is a crit in the suffer damage stage, but there isn't, its only a hit, so it can't pull it.

 

The ion weapon has to resolve from attack, rolls to hit canceled by rolls to evade, right up until the suffer damage step. Either there is no hit and no damage here or the result is changed to a hit and an ion token. There is never a crit result with an ion weapon.  

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The ion weapon has to resolve from attack, rolls to hit canceled by rolls to evade, right up until the suffer damage step.

Do the rules say that? If so, where?

 

Edit:

I mean where does it say that the card has to resolve from beginning to end without any interruptions whatsoever?

Edited by dvor

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IonCannon.png

 

It states: "If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results."

 

Determining if an attack hits is roll attack dice, do all modifications, roll defence dice, do all modifications, and check for uncanceled hits. Once the attack has been determined to hit you move on to cancelling the dice results and instead apply the one hit and ion token. If you break this chain of effect, which is stated on the card, then you are not following the effect correctly. You need to do A, then B, then C. If you interrupt B and C, you have not done the effect, and are therefore not following the rules of the card.

 

Draw_Their_Fire.png

 

There is never a crit to suffer in the deal damage stage so DTF never applies. 

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It states: "If this attack hits the target ship ..."

And the other card states: "When a ... ship ... is hit by an attack..."

The moment the fact is established that there is a hit, there is an uncancelled crit result in the common area which triggers DTF.

 

Both effects trigger when a ship is hit. They trigger simultaneously. There are rules regarding simultaneous effects. I strongly suggest to follow them.

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But, since the ion effect will resolve regardless, the crit result ends up getting cancelled, regardless of the timing on WHEN it actually gets canceled, so the only damage that gets inflicted is from the ion. I don't see how timing matters in this case at all.

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It states: "If this attack hits the target ship ..."

And the other card states: "When a ... ship ... is hit by an attack..."

The moment the fact is established that there is a hit, there is an uncancelled crit result in the common area which triggers DTF.

 

Both effects trigger when a ship is hit. They trigger simultaneously. There are rules regarding simultaneous effects. I strongly suggest to follow them.

 

 

But the second part of DTF, you may suffer one of the uncanceled crits instead of the other ship, can't happen as their is no crit, there is the hit and the ion token only.

 

DTF does start in the hit stage, but you can't actually complete it as the crit result gets canceled and replaced by the hit and ion token.

 

In order for DTF to work, there has to be a crit to pull off of the hit ship. An ion attack will never produce a crit, so the hit ship will never be given a crit to resolve, ergo DTF will never be able to come into effect and resolve fully.

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Well, we aren't exactly sure on the timing for exactly how to resolve DTF.

 

DTF and Ion both trigger at the same time.  There are two possible ways the timing on DTF could resolve:

 

1.  DTF moves the target of the result, but doesn't change the timing.  The {Critical Hit} result still resolves during Step 7, which is after the ion cancels everything

2.  DTF is a single effect, which causes the result to be resolved immediately when it is triggered.  If this is the case, if DTF went first it could cause the transferred result to resolve completely, including dealing damage, as part of triggering DTF.  In this case, the damage is dealt and done before the ion could cancel the results.

 

(2) Isn't really unlikely.  If we consider a wording that just said "When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit, suffer one {Critical Hit} result" then it would resolve fully as in #2 - I don't think anyone would dispute that.  So the question is whether DTF moves a result that resolves in the normal flow, or causes the ship with DTF to take that result immediately.

 

It honestly could go either way.  But this:

 


In order for DTF to work, there has to be a crit to pull off of the hit ship. An ion attack will never produce a crit, so the hit ship will never be given a crit to resolve, ergo DTF will never be able to come into effect and resolve fully.

 

...is very solidly wrong.  There is indeed a critical result, and Ion and DTF both have an equal chance to get to it first.  The ion doesn't make the result irrelevant until its ability has a chance to resolve, which may be after DTF, which most certainly WILL have a chance to come into effect and resolve fully.  We just don't know exactly HOW it resolves.

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Well, we aren't exactly sure on the timing for exactly how to resolve DTF.

DTF and Ion both trigger at the same time.

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

You have to follow the effects printed on the Ion Turret card first, from the start to the finish.  The Ion Turret has a replacement effect for all hits rolled and this must be applied before you consider triggered effects from other cards.

 

The DTF card triggers after the Ion Turret replacement effect resolves.

 

Edit - I completely agree with Sergovan.

Edited by TezzasGames

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It states: "If this attack hits the target ship ..."

And the other card states: "When a ... ship ... is hit by an attack..."

The moment the fact is established that there is a hit, there is an uncancelled crit result in the common area which triggers DTF.

 

Both effects trigger when a ship is hit. They trigger simultaneously. There are rules regarding simultaneous effects. I strongly suggest to follow them.

 

 

But the second part of DTF, you may suffer one of the uncanceled crits instead of the other ship, can't happen as their is no crit ...

I need to repeat what I said earlier. You even quoted that sentence:

 

The moment the fact is established that there is a hit, there is an uncancelled crit result in the common area which triggers DTF.

The claim that there were no crit die result is clearly wrong.

 

 

You have to follow the effects printed on the Ion Turret card first, from the start to the finish.

Why would you have to resolve that effect first? Is there any rule which supports that claim?

Edited by dvor

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You have to follow the effects printed on the Ion Turret card first, from the start to the finish.

The rules don't actually say this.

DTF is intended to interrupt the normal flow of the attack rules, by pulling one of the [crit] results off the Hit ship and on to the ship with DTF. Ion Turrets also interrupt the normal flow of the attack rules by canceling all dice prior to dealing damage.

In both cases the status of Hit doesn't change. You can't for example use DTF to stop a ship from losing it's stealth device. Or stop an assault missile from doing the AoE damage.

Both DTF and Ion Turret trigger off the Hit status, and both jump in front of the normal processing of the attack rules.

I would say that you should complete all steps of a given effect before moving on to the next, but the rules don't say that the Ion effect has to go off before the DTF effect does. Which IMO means if you do use DTF that ship would suffer a crit, because the card itself has that as part of it's effect.

Edited by VanorDM

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Draw Their Fire: When a friendly ship at Range 1 is hit by an attack, you may suffer 1 of the uncancelled [crit] results instead of the target ship.

 

Ion Turret: If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results.

 

Now to me DTF means you suffer one of the uncancelled critical hits instead of the target ship suffering the critical hit. This happens during the Deal Damage step of the combat phase (Step 7). You determine if a ship is hit in the Compare Results step of the combat phase (step 6). Once a target ship is hit in the Compare Results step the ion effect kicks in. The target suffers 1 damage and receives an ion token, then all dice are cancelled. You then move on to the Deal Damage step, here you have no uncancelled dice results so DTF never activates.

So no DTF cannot affect Ion Turret/Ion Cannon.

 

The real question is why would you want to do this? DTF specifically requires the targeted ship to have been hit, so you are taking a Critical hit for nothing as the Ion effect will still happen.

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