0 move and overlap

[macar 408]

Lambda 1 moves into my shuttle. My lambda performs a 0 maneuver. Are the lambdas considered touching for the firing phase or critical effect damage?

[Buhallin 4,563]

No.  Per the FAQ, you can only be considered touching if you actually overlap, and in order to overlap your final position has to be on top of each other.  No move, no possibility for overlap, no "touching".

[ziggy2000 169]

No.  Per the FAQ, you can only be considered touching if you actually overlap, and in order to overlap your final position has to be on top of each other.  No move, no possibility for overlap, no "touching".

But the other ship moved first (shuttle 1), and overlapped the OP's ship (My ship). So 1st ship loses action, and both ships are considered "touching". When 2nd shuttle moves 0 (stationary), there is obviously no overlapping on his part, and no action either because of the red maneuver. But are the ships still considered touching for combat purposes?

[DraconPyrothayan 6,107]

This is a very interesting question. I can see both sides.

The argument FOR being considered touching has two paths:

1. One ship stayed stationary, which would not undo the "Touching", as they are still in the position caused by the overlap.
2. The second ship, by remaining still, reinforced the "Touching", and might arguably have collided with the other ship. This holds less water.

The argument AGAINST being considered touching has only one position, which Buhallin wrote out.

1.  

   No.  Per the FAQ, you can only be considered touching if you actually overlap, and in order to overlap your final position has to be on top of each other.  No move, no possibility for overlap, no "touching".

   The problem with this one is that it goes against the logic with a rules technicality.

Personally, I think FFG ought to cover this in a forthcoming FAQ update, as both sides have merit. My money would be on the "Touching" ruling instead of a "Not Touching" ruling, but I'd be happy with either stance.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Worth pointing out that the FAQ says "if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round?" Yet the ships DID overlap thus round.

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round?

A: No.

[Buhallin 4,563]

Whoops, since both ships were shuttles I took the question as both doing stationary moves.  My bad.

 

As Forgottenlore points out, the FAQ says "neither ship".  If either one actively overlapped the other, then they would be touching for the round.  Only if both did a stationary would they not have overlapped at all.

[Bazinga 24]

Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies

The first ship overlapped

But did the second ship move away?

"Bearing Bearing is indicated by the arrows on the maneuver dial. Ships can travel in six possible bearings, depending on the options available on its dial" actually seven now as the stall is considered to be a baring.

I have heard an argument that as stall is a baring and and as such means the second ship has moved away.

I said heard not agree.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Bazinga

[ziggy2000 169]

Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies

The first ship overlapped

But did the second ship move away?

"Bearing Bearing is indicated by the arrows on the maneuver dial. Ships can travel in six possible bearings, depending on the options available on its dial" actually seven now as the stall is considered to be a baring.

I have heard an argument that as stall is a baring and and as such means the second ship has moved away.

Bearing (not baring) has nothing to do with it.

 

"Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each other as a target during the Combat phase while their bases remain touching. As soon as either of these ships moves away (so that the bases are no longer touching), this combat restriction no longer applies." (emphasis mine)

 

The first ship overlapped

But did the second ship move away?

 

No it did not. Does anyone disagree with this?

Edited April 5, 2014 by ziggy2000

[magadizer 617]

So if we change/extend the question, we get a curious situation:

Say that Lambda 1 overlaps Lambda 2 in one round, and they are touching, during that round they obviously cannot fire at each other.

But, if the NEXT round, both Lambda 1 and Lambda 2 take a Stationary maneuver, the models are still "physically adjacent" but not "touching" in the terms defined by the game, even though you haven't moved them. So in the second round, they CAN fire at each other. Strange but true.

I think.

Edited April 5, 2014 by magadizer

[StevenO 2,996]

I believe that would be my opinion.

 

It might be a little bit hard for Shuttle 2 to take the stationary maneuver consecutive round but while they may have been too close the first round I'd say the "drift" far enough apart to attack on the second if nothing else happens.

[dvorm 1,058]

So if we change/extend the question, we get a curious situation:

Say that Lambda 1 overlaps Lambda 2 in one round, and they are touching, during that round they obviously cannot fire at each other.

But, if the NEXT round, both Lambda 1 and Lambda 2 take a Stationary maneuver, the models are still "physically adjacent" but not "touching" in the terms defined by the game, even though you haven't moved them. So in the second round, they CAN fire at each other. Strange but true.

I think.

Seems that is the way it is.

[magadizer 617]

I believe that would be my opinion.

 

It might be a little bit hard for Shuttle 2 to take the stationary maneuver consecutive round but while they may have been too close the first round I'd say the "drift" far enough apart to attack on the second if nothing else happens.

Shuttle 2 wouldn't have to take a stationary move in consecutive rounds, though there are ways that could happen. I was assuming Shuttle 2 had moved first in the first round I described.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

I believe that would be my opinion.

 

It might be a little bit hard for Shuttle 2 to take the stationary maneuver consecutive round but while they may have been too close the first round I'd say the "drift" far enough apart to attack on the second if nothing else happens.

Shuttle 2 wouldn't have to take a stationary move in consecutive rounds, though there are ways that could happen. I was assuming Shuttle 2 had moved first in the first round I described.

 

 

If Shuttle A moves then Shuttle B moves and overlaps it then the are touching.  No one questions that.

 

If in the next round A chooses Stop and B chooses Stop would no longer be touching.  This one is pretty easy to agree on as two ships that overlapped the previous round and then perform the same straight maneuver (assuming a square hit on the back of one with the front of the other) they no longer touch.

 

The "problem" seems to be that if Shuttle A moves and Overlaps Shuttle B with Shuttle B then executing a Stop Maneuver.  I believe the two have still overlapped and thus are touching and unable to fire on each other.

[Jehan Menasis 1,562]

I concur. If one ship overlaps the other, both count as overlapped (and touching) in the same round. It doesn't matter if one of them remains stationary.

[sneth 1]

I disagree.  The first ship overlaps, so you must move him back until he no longer overlaps.  The second ship moves 0.  There is no longer an overlap condition.

[StevenO 2,996]

I concur. If one ship overlaps the other, both count as overlapped (and touching) in the same round. It doesn't matter if one of them remains stationary.

 

 

I disagree.  The first ship overlaps, so you must move him back until he no longer overlaps.  The second ship moves 0.  There is no longer an overlap condition.

 

And this is why there should be a FAQ entry addressing the question of the STOP maneuver and overlapping.

[StevenO 2,996]

I'll mention that one of the big reason to use STOP is to try to encourage an overshoot.  If a fighter runs into the back of a Shuttle anticipating that it will move and thus become a target then the Stop Maneuver will do no good if that fighter will get to attack anyway.

[ziggy2000 169]

I disagree.  The first ship overlaps, so you must move him back until he no longer overlaps.  The second ship moves 0.  There is no longer an overlap condition.

 

This argument is not supported by the wording of the FAQ, as quoted below:

 

Worth pointing out that the FAQ says "if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round?" Yet the ships DID overlap thus round.

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round?

A: No.

If the second ship "moves 0" it does not negate the fact that the ships did indeed overlap that round. 

Then there is a relevant passage from the main rulebook page 17:

 

"Ships whose bases are touching cannot declare each

other as a target during the Combat phase while

their bases remain touching. As soon as

either of these ships moves away (so that the bases

are no longer touching), this combat restriction no

longer applies." (emphasis mine)

 

So even though the 2nd ship technically "moved" it did not move far enough to break contact, and the combat restriction would still apply.

 

EDIT: I guess I should point out that I am addressing the OP's situation, and not the question of both shuttles performing stationary maneuvers while touching.

Edited April 7, 2014 by ziggy2000

[Bazinga 24]

Yet ships can only be considered touching if one or more ships overlapped during this round.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Yet ships can only be considered touching if one or more ships overlapped during this round.

Which is exactly what has happened in the situation in question. Now, if next turn they both executed stationary maneuvers somehow, say by the stress having been pulled off by Yorr or a wingman or something, then on THAT turn neither of them would have overlapped the other and they would both be free to act normally, while still be touching.

[sneth 1]

They are no longer overlapping, but they are touching.  You can't have the ship as your target, but I can't find anything that would forfeit your action.  That is only listed for overlapping conditions.

 

"From the opposite end of the template, move 

the active ship backward along the top of the 

template until it no longer overlaps another ship"

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

They are no longer overlapping, but they are touching. You can't have the ship as your target,

Is this addressed to my post just prior? If so, the FAQ is very explicit that if 2 ships did not overlap during the current round they are not considered touching. So even if they were touching last round and both executed stationary maneuvers so that their bases are still in contact, they are no longer considered touching according to the rules and could target each other, assuming arc of fire and such.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Forgottenlore