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mightyspacepope

Range ruler touches both bases, but does it overlap?

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You're exact words "...sure, the majority of the base is under range 2..."

My initial reply was to your "...not really, no..." when I gave the example of overlap / under and pointed out the rule, to which you just said it yourself even = as the quote above shows ... under, was your word.

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One thing to consider is Arvel Crynyd's ability.  It reads:

 

You may declare an enemy ship inside your firing arc that you are touching as the target of your attack.

 

I think that makes it pretty clear what FFG had in mind for ship to ship attacks.  Touching = Overlapping, otherwise his ability is useless.

 

In terms of the range ruler, I would assume the same.  I've never encountered a player who brought it up, nor would I trust his or her ability to detect a difference. 

 

From the FAQ:

 

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if
neither ship overlapped the other ship
during this round?
A: No.
 
Arvel is not considered 'touching' his opponent's base if he didn't previously overlapped it first.
 
Touching IS NOT overlapping.
 
Tough rare, there are ocassions where your movement ends 'touching' something without having overlaped it first.
 
For example, think of a barrel roll. You can't barrel roll if your base overlaps other ship's base, but nothing prevents you to exactly adjust your ship 'in contact' with the other ship's base, without overlapping it.
In this case, both ships would be 'in contact', but wouldn't be considered 'touching' per se by the above rule... And so, for example, they could still fire at each other.

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I don't understand why this arguement (thread) is continuing.

 

It doesnt say in the rules that you have to overlap the TOP of the base anyway.

 

The bases edges are slanted.

 

If a ruler is able to nudge the target's base when measuring, then the ruler is LONGER than the distnance between them.

Logic that is.

If it is longer, then it overlaps it. Even if that overlap is very tiny and only really affects the very tip of the bottom of the edge of the base!!

 

If it can't nudge it, then it cant be touching it. I fail to envisage a situation where the ruler is longer than the distance between the bases yet someone declares that no overlap is occuring.

 

You have played pool or snooker right? The cue ball either touches a ball or it doesnt. Sometimes youhave to look really closely,,,

 

so look closely!

 

Touching = nudging = overlap.

Edited by hooperjaws

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You're exact words "...sure, the majority of the base is under range 2..."

My initial reply was to your "...not really, no..." when I gave the example of overlap / under and pointed out the rule, to which you just said it yourself even = as the quote above shows ... under, was your word.

All you have proved is that it is easy to misconstrue intention if you only post half of a sentence. I'll repost it for your convenience:

 

Sure, the majority of the base is under range 2, but the closest point is under the dividing line which is a part of neither section.

The second half is pretty important to the purpose of that statement.

 

Anyway, it seems some of you are pretty entrenched on your stance here, and I don't think any part of my argument will sink in at this point. If you want to argue with your opponent about the merits of measuring nearly imperceptible differences in measurement with a cardboard stick, have fun. I PROMISE you, your opponent will not. They will be thanking their lucky stars X-wing plays so quickly so they can leave that game behind.

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And here I was thinking they put "closest point" in bold in the rulebook so you wouldn't miss it. Turns out they put in bold because it's irrelevant... your confusion on this matter is making more and more sense by the post.

Edited by Sekac

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Yawn ... closest point is relevant when measuring from one ship to another ( you can't take a longer path as a means to ignore an obstacle ) but its irrelevant in my example and your reply, since we are talking about about where the range ruler overlaps the target to determine at what range the attack should be resolved.

Have I responded properly enough for you now ? How about answering my question for a change then, instead of dodging it and / or attempting to derail the topic with less than substanstial material relating to the OP...

In my example = the target is at the point between Range 1 and Range 2 ... at what range does the ruler overlap the target ?

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I have answered that question numerous times, but since you seem to only read about half of what I say, here it is again: it is in neither range band. It is under a line between range bands.

 

If you hide your money in the wall between your living room and your kitchen, it is in neither the living room, nor the kitchen, but in between.

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Mathematically, lines are one dimensional.  They don't have thickness, just length.

 

A printed line is two dimensional and will always have error.

 

Given that the range ruler lines appear to be less than 1mm thick, this whole thread is very amusing and kind of sad at the same time.

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I have answered that question numerous times, but since you seem to only read about half of what I say, here it is again: it is in neither range band. It is under a line between range bands.

 

If you hide your money in the wall between your living room and your kitchen, it is in neither the living room, nor the kitchen, but in between.

S o o o suddenly the width of the ship's base is equivalent to the dividing line on the range ruler :-/

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I.....am so lost. Please help me understand. You read this paragraph:

 

"Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target:
To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships."

 

So let me get this straight. You see that the first sentence is talking about the closest part of a ship's base, and the second sentence is talking about the closest part of a ship's base, but you think that because that the third sentence doesn't also say the closest part, that they therefore are no longer talking about the closest part?

 

Am I right so far?

 

Furthermore, when they say "the target ship's base" in the final sentence but have no qualifiers of how much of it or which part, you assume that they mean ALL of the base?

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Can I just point out that the range ruler is cardboard. It is not infinitely stiff, it will bend, flex, and distort. It will suffer from compression. In addition the bases are not perfectly stable, you touch them and they will move. As such I find it hard to believe from a physics perspective that you can have the range ruler touching both bases without having overlapped (if at the molecular level) at least initially.

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Can I just point out that the range ruler is cardboard. It is not infinitely stiff, it will bend, flex, and distort. It will suffer from compression. In addition the bases are not perfectly stable, you touch them and they will move. As such I find it hard to believe from a physics perspective that you can have the range ruler touching both bases without having overlapped (if at the molecular level) at least initially.

 

Totally agree. That's why I don't see the point of arguing to that level of precision. If I can see the table between the range ruler and the target, I'm not allowing the shot. If I can't, I'll give 'em the benefit of the doubt and let 'em take the shot.

 

It's why I favor the "reach" argument. It requires only the casual sort of measurement that gamers with cardboard are going to produce. The "overlap" argument ends up becoming a quagmire of precision measurements and geometric proofs. It's absurd.

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The third sentence is important because at that stage ( after closest point to closest point ) it tells you the range is resolved at the distance where the template overlaps the target's base.

As an example - a Rookie Pilot is targeting an Academy Pilot. The Rebel player begins the attack by placing the end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest point of the X-Wing to the TIE Fighter. Likewise, the range ruler is placed so that it touches the closest point of the targeted TIE Fighter. Lastly, the Rebel player checks to see which range of the template overlaps the target's base. For this example let us say the closest point was somewhere in the middle of Range 2 - that being the case, the template overlaps the target's base at Range 2.

All ( 3 ) conditions for making a ranged attack have been satisfied.Trying to say otherwise at this point would most likely border on trolling or flaming, unless there is some valid rule reference directly related to ranged attack that you would like to include.

Now if we extend the distance between the X-Wing and the TIE Fighter, and apply the above rule / example to the original issue then we find the closest points ( conditions 1 & 2 satisfied ) places the template at the start of Range 1 for the attacker and the end of Range 3 for the target ... however, the third condition is not satisfied since the template does not overlap the target's base.

Simple ... applying everything the rules tell us, indicates the target would be out of range. Players can houserule it any way they want, but by RAW standards ( or until FFG gives us a FAQ to state otherwise ) the range ruler must overlap - simply touching is only a partial requisite, and does not make the attack valid.

Find something in the rules for ranged attacks that counters my statements above and I'll be happy to play it that way ... anything less is a houserule.

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The third sentence is important because at that stage ( after closest point to closest point ) it tells you the range is resolved at the distance where the template overlaps the target's base.

 

So if the range ruler overlaps only the closest point of the base, how is not overlapping the base? The closest point is part of the base, right? If it is under the ruler, it is overlapped by it, right? In what way does that NOT satisfy your ruling of it?

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Right, if any part of the base is under the template ( overlaps the targer ) then all conditions have been met. But merely touching the base does not mean it is under / overlaps.

Place the range ruler flat on the table. Now slide a ship's base toward it until it touches the end of the range ruler. Is it now under the ranger ruler ?.. does the range ruler now overlap the ship's base ?..

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Right, if any part of the base is under the template ( overlaps the targer ) then all conditions have been met. But merely touching the base does not mean it is under / overlaps.

Place the range ruler flat on the table. Now slide a ship's base toward it until it touches the end of the range ruler. Is it now under the ranger ruler ?.. does the range ruler now overlap the ship's base ?..

 

AH-HA! NOW lift that ruler away from the table keping it completely parellel..  neither base should move right? (yeah right, good luck on that one). Lower one end to the attacker first, push it against the attacker. Lower the far end secondly..  ..what happened? Did it slip back down again or does the non-parallel aspect of the ruler now overlap slightly on the base?

 

YES.

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Can I just point out that the range ruler is cardboard. It is not infinitely stiff, it will bend, flex, and distort. It will suffer from compression. In addition the bases are not perfectly stable, you touch them and they will move. As such I find it hard to believe from a physics perspective that you can have the range ruler touching both bases without having overlapped (if at the molecular level) at least initially.

 

And all those reasons are precisely why in the case of doubt (this thread) I prefer NOT ADJUDICATING the shot.

 

Because seriously... If you truly have to resort to analyze atmospheric pressure, humidity, consistency of the ruler material, earth curvature, dilation of plastic and molecular overlapping just to justify sneaking in your range 3 shot...

 

... is because you guys are already losing the match.

 

 

I can assure you that if I shot you at range 3, the ruler will be clearly overlapping your ship... As clear as a sunny sunday in the Sahara.

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Right, if any part of the base is under the template ( overlaps the targer ) then all conditions have been met. But merely touching the base does not mean it is under / overlaps.

 

Then why were you talking about the width of the base earlier?

 

S o o o suddenly the width of the ship's base is equivalent to the dividing line on the range ruler :-/

 

You have opinions that are exactly opposite of each other within only a few posts and yet somehow believe that you are maintaining a stance. I can't focus on a target moving that quickly. I'm out.

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You are now posting for the simple enjoyment of trolling - what have you added to this topic that was truly substantial to the rule in question ?.. not much. I haven't changed my stance at all on the subject. Sorry that your use of smoke & mirrors has somehow clouded your thought process - it hasn't clouded ours.

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wow all this just to measure range.I cant see what the issue is.  if the range ruler touches the base or overlaps the base then its in range, if it doesnt then the ship is out of range.  it cant get any more simple than that. if you cant agree with your opponent on this then roll a dice or dont play against him for being a podantic little S***.

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