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mightyspacepope

Range ruler touches both bases, but does it overlap?

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That FAQ ruling says nothing about the effect of a range ruler touching bases. When measuring range, it follows a point to point rule. Shortest point to shortest point. If a range ruler is touching your targets base, then the point on the base and the point on the range ruler are the same. 

 

I did ask for clarification from FFG but since I made that request I have had the opportunity to reread my rulebook and I found something that I had missed earlier.

 

Range Ruler page 9

"When the rules refer to a ship being 'at range 1-3', it means that the target's base must fall under any section of the range ruler."

For a target ship to be at range 3, its base must be overlapped by the range 3 section of the range ruler, barring any response from FFG that states if touching has any effect.

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I have been saying that since the beginning of this conversation... T_T

If you had quoted page 9 Range Ruler it would have been over much sooner... ;)

 

I am still waiting on that response and will post it here to satisfy everyones curiosity.

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The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section TOUCHES the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section points toward (OR TOUCHES) the intended target. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler

Page nine doesn't say overlap at all it clearly says or touches.

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I have been saying that since the beginning of this conversation... T_T

If you had quoted page 9 Range Ruler it would have been over much sooner... ;)

 

I am still waiting on that response and will post it here to satisfy everyones curiosity.

 

 

I did, several times, posts #9 and #17

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Page 19 states

The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section points toward (or touches) the intended target. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler.

Clearly the above text says and the range 3 section points towards or Touches the intended target.

 

What I read clearly is that:

 

When the rules refer to a ship being "at range 1-3", it means that the target's base must fall under any section of the range ruler.

 

The "touch part" you quote refers to act of measuring distance. But in the case of attacks, they have range. Primary weapon attacks can hit targets at range 1-3, So, we apply the above rule to check if the target is at range 1-3.

 

- Is the target ship's base under any section of the range ruler?

- No, the range ruler rests on the table, and no part of the enemy's base falls under it.

- Then, the target is not at range 1-3.

Ive said a ruler that can not fit between two ships with out moving either and is touching both ships bases is in range

No part of the ruler is on the table

The bases are definitely under the ruler

You say its only touching not overlapping

Even if by some miracle ffg agree with you, your still going to say its not overlapping enough.

When every other single person would have given it to the opponent your still going to argue the toss.

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Bazinga, I don't think you truly understand what I'm arguing here. Also, I suspect that english is not your main language, which may explain some of the confusion.

 

Nobody is talking about forming 'bridges' with the ruler, except you.

 

If I have time later, and since a picture is worth 1.000 words, I'll draw you examples, I promise.

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I've gone the full nine yards on this one. I was genuinely curious what the rulebook said. What I discovered was the following.
 

Page 9, Acquire A Target Lock Section, Step 1:
"Determine if the enemy ship is within range by taking the range ruler and measuring the distance from any point on the active ship’s base to any  point on the enemy ship’s base."
 
For the Target Lock section, Step 1, the rules emphasize the range ruler must simply reach "any point" on the attacking and defending ships. No mention of any overlap requirement in order for a ship to be in range. Therefore, reaching (read touching) seems to be an acceptable means of satisfying an "in range" requirement.
 
Page 9, Range Ruler sub-section:
"The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure  the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section  points toward (or touches) the intended target.

When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended  target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s  base must fall under any section of the range ruler." (Emphasis mine.)

The first paragraph states plainly the range ruler must simply touch the attacking ship's base as well as touch  the defending ship's base. The second paragraph states not once, but twice, that the defending ship's base must fall under a section of the range ruler to be considered in that specific range (1, 2, or 3). This section seems to contradict what satisfies an "in range" requirement by stating both an overlap condition and a touch condition are acceptable when checking range on a defending ship.

Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target:
"To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall outside the attacker’s firing arc." (Emphasis mine.)
 

According to this section, the range ruler must simply touch the attacking ship's base, but must overlap the target ship's base for that target ship to be considered in range and must "reach" (read touch) the defending ship, otherwise that defending ship is "considered out of range and cannot be targeted."
 

Given all the references I was able to find in the core rulebook regarding a defending ship satisfying an "in range" condition, I've tallied the results and they are as follows:
 
1. Range Ruler must touch defending ship: 3 supporting entries
- Page 9, Acquire A Target Lock Section, Step 1
- Page 9, Range Ruler Subsection, First Paragraph
- Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target, Second Paragraph
 

2. Range Ruler must overlap defending ship: 3 supporting entries
          - Page 9, Range Ruler Subsection, Second Paragraph (mentioned twice)
          - Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target, First Paragraph

 

If we want any conclusive evidence that the rulebook supports the one or the other of the "touching vs overlapping" requirement, we won't find it. Just a single contradictory range checking requirement rule is enough to throw doubt on the proper method to use, and we have more than that for each argument.

If you want to insist the majority rules, overlapping has it by a 3-to-2 reference there is no majority as there are 3 entries for each side. If I've missed a FAQ, let me know. I looked and couldn't find one.

As always, communicate with your opponent. Come to an agreement on which is the "correct" way to check for range before you play and avoid this mess. My only hope is there is some kind of errata that eliminates this issue's contradictions.

TL;DR

Agree one way or the other with your opponent before you start the match.

 

**Edited to include a missed "touch" argument entry**

Edited by ElJeffe313

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First of all can I just say that one or two of the people in this thread have been very respectful and courteous of other's differing rules interpretations, and one of two of you have shown immaturity, rudeness and deserve a good wrist slap. Sort yourselves out.

 

Secondly, there is no reason at all that why there should NOT be a difference between range of attacking and range of target locking. IF the rule makers want it that way, then it is up to them. That said, I think there IS no difference myself.

 

Maybe some confusion exists here because the side edge of the plastic base has a very slight slope?

 

In my opinion here is what you do, regardless of whether it is a target lock or an attack:

 

1) Get any other ships out of the way! Use movement templates as position markers if need be.

2) Pin down the attacking (or locking!) ship firmly to the play surface with your fingers so that no-one can accuse you of it getting nudged about.

3) Within firing arc (if relevent) back the range ruler onto the side of the attacking ship, and hold it there touching. 

4) Lower the far end of the ruler onto your victim, cleaver-style! (Assuming you don't cheat and you keep the ruler in contact with your attacking ship), you are gonna find out if the far end touches your opponent's ship base.

5) If the far end so much as nocks it a smidge (even if it only hits the slopey part of the base) then the ship is in range. If the ruler hits the surface of the table without hitting the base, then it isnt in range.

 

Notes:

 

I cant see anywhere in those quoted rules where it says the range ruler has to smack down on the TOP of the enemy's base.

 

If the ruler touches some base as it falls, there physically MUST be atoms of the victim's base that are UNDER the ruler? No?

 

If you are trying to measure from paper card insert to paper card insert, you are probably getting it wrong. My buddy won a plastic green range ruler in a tourney and we mostly use that: Bonus effect being that hard plastic makes a good sound when it knocks things.

 

Lastly, people love shooting. Let them shoot! If anyone tries to tell me that i cant shoot their ship even though swinging and swiping the ruler around clearly knocks on their ship's base, I am simply going to say "fine I conceed, you win", let them have their hollow victory and play someone else instead!

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Bazinga, I don't think you truly understand what I'm arguing here. Also, I suspect that english is not your main language, which may explain some of the confusion.

 

Nobody is talking about forming 'bridges' with the ruler, except you.

 

If I have time later, and since a picture is worth 1.000 words, I'll draw you examples, I promise.

Well thats real mature and in no way trolling.

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First of all, ElJeffe313, thanks for doing the leg-work. I'm with you 99% but I think your conclusion doesn't follow the evidence you laid out. Re-read all of what you posted and you'll see that:

 

A) 100% of the time the book refers to determining whether or not the target is in range it uses verbiage describing "touching."

B) 100% of the time the book refers to which range band the target is in, it uses verbiange describing "overlap."

 

There literally isn't a contradiction there. So the process works like this:

 

1. Check range. If the range ruler touches the target's base, he or she (looking at you, Howlrunner) is in range.

2. Determine range band. Is the closest point of the base under range band 1 or 2? If not, then the target is in range 3.

3. Roll dice.

4. Make enthusiastic or dismayed noises depending on how step 3 went, and move the heck on!

Edited by Sekac

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The good news is this entire argument wont be a problem when the lawyers start arguing grab your range five rulers (which will come with one of the large ships) and measure again. The way the markings slightly obscure where the end of ranage three ends your opponent will find it very hard to claim its not overlapping.

Until then fly casual seems the best approach.

Edited by Bazinga

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You might be overlooking this part of the rule that you quoted

"...the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler..."

If the ranger ruler is only touching the target then the target is not under the range ruler. Seems clear to me that we have two instances ( overlap & under ) when determining if a ship is in range when making an attack.

I brought this up on a local level as well - consider for a moment what we know from the rules and apply it to this ... if the target is exactly at the point between Range 1 & Range 2 then it touches Range 1 but overlaps Range 2 = thus per rules the attack is resolved at Range 2 ... now extend the distance as described in the opening post = the range ruler touches the target at Range 3 but overlaps a non existent Range 4 thus the target is out of range.

Edited by toxicwisdom

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One thing to consider is Arvel Crynyd's ability.  It reads:

 

You may declare an enemy ship inside your firing arc that you are touching as the target of your attack.

 

I think that makes it pretty clear what FFG had in mind for ship to ship attacks.  Touching = Overlapping, otherwise his ability is useless.

 

In terms of the range ruler, I would assume the same.  I've never encountered a player who brought it up, nor would I trust his or her ability to detect a difference. 

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It is kind of confusing so let me re-post ElJeffe's quotes from the book with colors to illustrate my point.

 

Page 9, Acquire A Target Lock Section, Step 1:
"Determine if the enemy ship is within range by taking the range ruler and measuring the distance from any point on the active ship’s base to any  point on the enemy ship’s base."
 
Page 9, Range Ruler sub-section:
"The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure  the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section  points toward (or touches) the intended target.
 
When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended  target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s  base must fall under any section of the range ruler."

Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target:
"To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall outside the attacker’s firing arc."

 

All of the above quotes in green are sections used to support the "touch" argument, while the red ones are used to support the "overlap" argument.

 

Now I will post the same thing, only this time, I will instead use green to show sections that are talking about whether a target is "in range" and therefore a legal target. The quotes in red will be used to show sections that are referring to which range band a target is in:

 

Page 9, Acquire A Target Lock Section, Step 1:
"Determine if the enemy ship is within range by taking the range ruler and measuring the distance from any point on the active ship’s base to any  point on the enemy ship’s base."
 
Page 9, Range Ruler sub-section:
"The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure  the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section  points toward (or touches) the intended target.
 
When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended  target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s  base must fall under any section of the range ruler."

Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target:
"To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall outside the attacker’s firing arc."

 

You'll notice that all of the quotes are the same color. Nothing changed. Why? There isn't a contradiction.

 

You'll notice that on both page 9 and page 10 the relevant sections are 2 paragraphs long. You'll also notice each paragraph is either referring to determining whether or not you are IN range, while the other is referring to WHICH range. You may think it's a coincidence that both the subject and the verbiage change between paragraphs, but I think more likely they were using paragraphs to show a separation of two different ideas since that is, afterall, what paragraphs are for.

 

I brought this up on a local level as well - consider for a moment what we know from the rules and apply it to this ... if the target is exactly at the point between Range 1 & Range 2 then it touches Range 1 but overlaps Range 2 = thus per rules the attack is resolved at Range 2 ...

 

Not really, no. Sure, the majority of the base is under range 2, but the closest point is under the dividing line which is a part of neither section. According to your logic, it would not be a legal target as the range band is indeterminate.

 

But seriously, anyone firmly in the "must overlap" camp, the take-away from this whole thread should be:

 

ALWAYS MEASURE WITH THE GREEN LASER UP

If you look at the range ruler's ends, you can see that the red laser side is curved down at the edges, where the perforating machine punched it. This technically makes that side shorter and gives the edge a slight slant to it. So if you measure with the ride side down, then the edges on the green side will hang over. Since the edges of the ships are also slanted the same way, if the ruler is touching both ships and the red side is completely flat on the play surface, then the ruler will still technically be overlapping the base, like this: //

 

Ridiculous? Yes. It's a logical solution to a ridiculous stance.

Edited by Sekac

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I brought this up on a local level as well - consider for a moment what we know from the rules and apply it to this ... if the target is exactly at the point between Range 1 & Range 2 then it touches Range 1 but overlaps Range 2 = thus per rules the attack is resolved at Range 2 ...

"...Not really, no. Sure, the majority of the base is under range 2, but the closest point is under the dividing line which is a part of neither section. According to your logic, it would not be a legal target as the range band is indeterminate..."

??? Wait ... what ? You just said it yourself - the target is under Range 2 ... so it satisfies both conditions for making an attack: overlap & under. So how exactly is that "not really, no" ?

As for Arvel Crynyd, not sure how his ability favors the "touch" side of the debate ... his ability is an exception to the normal rules. Otherwise all ships could attack their targets when touching, and Arvel wouldn't even need his pilot ability.

Edit: exception = silly slide mistake :-/

Edited by toxicwisdom

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??? Wait ... what ? You just said it yourself - the target is under Ranger 2 ... so it satisfies both conditions for making an attack: overlap & under. So how exactly is that "not really, no" ?

Could you please post the quote where I said that? I've re-read my 2 (now 3) posts multiple times and I didn't say that anywhere. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else...? Perhaps you're taking 2 different ideas (from 2 different people) and ramming them together in your mind and you've confused yourself. Hey.... that sounds kinda familiar don't it?

 

Anyway a "closest point" is infinitely small, it exists only in one precise location, and it is not a measurable diameter. If an infinitely small point is directly under a line with a measurable width (like the dividing line between range bands) then it is not on either side of it. It exists ONLY under that line. So which range band is it in? None. According to your argument, you must be in a range band to be a target. But as I showed above (which you entirely disregarded in your haste to put words in my mouth (or....at my finger tips?), There are not 2 conditions for making an attack, there is one: Does the range ruler reach or touch the intended target? 

 

That's the ONLY condition (aside from arc of sight). The paragraphs in red are about determining which range band the target is in.

 

Those are 2 DIFFERENT ideas using 2 DIFFERENT conditions. And they are separated by 2 DIFFERENT paragraphs every time they are mentioned in sequence.

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I want to address a number of your well-reasoned and thought-out responses, Cakes :D. However, as I find the red color with which you highlighted the "range band" condition very difficult to read on a gray background, I've used a different color.

 

Page 9, Acquire A Target Lock Section, Step 1:
"Determine if the enemy ship is within range by taking the range ruler and measuring the distance from any point on the active ship’s base to any  point on the enemy ship’s base."
 
Page 9, Range Ruler sub-section:
"The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure  the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section  points toward (or touches) the intended target.
 
When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended  target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s  base must fall under any section of the range ruler."

Page 10, Combat Phase, Section 1. Declare Target:
"To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the range ruler so that it touches the closest part of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward the closest part of the target ship’s base that is inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall outside the attacker’s firing arc."

All of the above quotes in green are sections used to support the "touch" argument, while the orange ones are used to support the "overlap" argument.

 

Now I will post the same thing, only this time, I will instead use green to show sections that are talking about whether a target is "in range" and therefore a legal target. The quotes in orange will be used to show sections that are referring to which range band a target is in.
 

You'll notice that all of the quotes are the same color. Nothing changed. Why? There isn't a contradiction.

 

You'll notice that on both page 9 and page 10 the relevant sections are 2 paragraphs long. You'll also notice each paragraph is either referring to determining whether or not you are IN range, while the other is referring to WHICH range. You may think it's a coincidence that both the subject and the verbiage change between paragraphs, but I think more likely they were using paragraphs to show a separation of two different ideas since that is, afterall, what paragraphs are for.

 

 

 

The point I wish to convey here is simply this: there is a single condition a player is checking for when they use the Range Ruler before performing some action, ability or attack. That being "At which range is my target?" Where does a player look to determine this? The sections I outlined, which you quoted above.

 

Let's consider Range Band 3. As this is the current range limit for any ship, it's important to understand when a target is eligible for a Range 3 action, attack or ability to establish consistency when determining range eligibility for any other range on the ruler. To determine range, the aforementioned sections of the rulebook specify two different methods for doing so. One which supports simply touching the target, and one which supports overlapping the target. If we accept the premise that touching the target with the edge of the Range 3 band is sufficient, this sets a precedent for all subsequent range measurements less than Range 3. Finally, the same precedent is set if you were to accept the overlap requirement as the means to determine a Range 3 requirement. What's legal for one range must be consistent for all ranges.

 

Unfortunately, this is not what the Range Ruler sections outline. They clearly specify range measurement using both touching (i.e. reaching) and overlapping as legal means by which to determine range. There is no dual scenario here; "in range" and "which range". In essence, "which range" dictates "in range." They are not determined separately.

Edited by ElJeffe313

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@ Sekac = you're comment above my reply begins with "not really, no" and there is the quote.

The point of contact is the starting reference point in my example ( and not disregarded ) ... the rest of the ship is under the template however ( rule reference ) and the template therefore overlaps the target ( rule reference ) ... the point being is that the range ruler does not overlap the target at Range 1 - it touches between 1 & 2 but also overlaps at Range 2 ( target requirement satisfied )

Now given the same conditions in the opening post ( we know it touches but does not overlap - my earlier example included ) the target would be out of range because = the template does not overlap / the target is under the template.

Why is this is even an issue ? We are not discussing rules regarding Obstacles, Target Locks, Effects, etc - we are talking about ranged attacks, and have two references ( again ) that mention overlap and under ... so please show me where within the rules for attacks it states the template only has to touch.

Edited by toxicwisdom

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That's the kind of nit picky crap that makes some players unbearable to play with.

* touch period is a hit. If the touch is uncertain roll it off and continue.

Edited by efiend

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That's the kind of nit picky crap that makes some players unbearable to play with.

* touch period is a hit. If the touch is uncertain roll it off and continue.

Please support that comment with a rule reference, else it is you that becomes the unbearable player ... once more, a ranged attack makes two references = overlap & under ... where does it state touch ? Edited by toxicwisdom

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Let me ask you this = if you were equipped with Advanced Proton Torpedoes, would you we able to use them against a target that was exactly touching the point between Range 1 and Range 2 ? If you say yes, then you are disregarding the condition that the range ruler overlaps the target at Range 2 - despite it touching the end of Range 1 and the start of Range 2.

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@ Sekac = you're comment above my reply begins with "not really, no" and there is the quote.

 

Which you immediately followed with "you just said it yourself - the target is under range 2."

 

Which I didn't ever say. You ignored my entire post to focus on one point and then forgot what I actually said about that point.

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