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mightyspacepope

Range ruler touches both bases, but does it overlap?

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I ran into a situation this past weekend at an event.  I was declaring an attack against an opponent and went to measure range.  After placing the range ruler down, it definitely just fit in between our ships' bases and was definitely TOUCHING both.

 

However, we both checked the rulebook and the exact wording on page 10 indicates:

 

 

To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the 

range ruler so that it touches the closest part 
of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward 
the closest part of the target ship’s base that is 
inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 
2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s 
base is considered the range between the ships.
 
If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target 
ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot 
be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall 
outside the attacker’s firing arc.

 

My gut feeling is that it was a legal target, but my opponent was arguing that the ruler wasn't technically "overlapping" the ship.

 

Thoughts?

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Technically "touching" and "overlapping" should mean the same thing but there is a difference.  If the template is not partially covering the base it would seem to be not a valid target under the rules you state above.  The range ruler has to touch your ship's base but needs to overlap your target.

 

Of course I can see it being played as a valid target and "benefit of the doubt" should rule in favour that it is a target.

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I ran into a situation this past weekend at an event.  I was declaring an attack against an opponent and went to measure range.  After placing the range ruler down, it definitely just fit in between our ships' bases and was definitely TOUCHING both.

 

However, we both checked the rulebook and the exact wording on page 10 indicates:

 

 

To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the 

range ruler so that it touches the closest part 

of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward 

the closest part of the target ship’s base that is 

inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1, 

2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s 

base is considered the range between the ships.

 

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target 

ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot 

be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall 

outside the attacker’s firing arc.

 

My gut feeling is that it was a legal target, but my opponent was arguing that the ruler wasn't technically "overlapping" the ship.

 

Thoughts?

When measuring distance the rules talk about overlapping when deciding on the range ie the lowest section. But if the range ruler just touches both ships then it's range three.

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"Overlap" means that the ruler (or your ship's base) has to end physically on top of the opponent's base. 

 

If after placing the ruler in contact with your base, you don't manage to 'keep it in the air' over your opponent's base, then, your opponent is beyond range 3.

 

Think of it this way, if the ruler had range 4 instead of 3, the 4th section would have been be the one that overlapped your opponent, and your shot would be resolved at range 4.

 

But, in your case, the ruler can't overlap your opponent's base, and so, it rests on the table. It touches your opponent's base, yes, but merely 'touching' is not enough to activate any 'overlap' requeriment in the game...Thus, your target is considered out of range.

 

The act of simply "Touching" doesn't trigger any effect in the game. For example... you don't collide with an obstacle by simply touching it.... You have to physically overlap it. Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

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"Overlap" means that the ruler (or your ship's base) has to end physically on top of the opponent's base.

If after placing the ruler in contact with your base, you don't manage to 'keep it in the air' over your opponent's base, then, your opponent is beyond range 3.

Think of it this way, if the ruler had range 4 instead of 3, the 4th section would have been be the one that overlapped your opponent, and your shot would be resolved at range 4.

But, in your case, the ruler can't overlap your opponent's base, and so, it rests on the table. It touches your opponent's base, yes, but merely 'touching' is not enough to activate any 'overlap' requeriment in the game...Thus, your target is considered out of range.

The act of simply "Touching" doesn't trigger any effect in the game. For example... you don't collide with an obstacle by simply touching it.... You have to physically overlap it. Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

This is completely wrong

For example if an x wing moves and takes a range three target lock on a tie and the tip of the range ruler just touches both ships. when it comes to combat given your judgement he is no longer within range three.

Good luck convincing any opponent he cant attack.

If we look at Target lock

Determine if the enemy ship is within range by taking the range ruler and measuring the distance from any point on the active ship’s base to any point on the enemy ship’s base. So yes the range ruler only needs to touch the base NOT overlap it For target lock to work. Taget lock does not need to overlap at all.

Page 19 states

The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section points toward (or touches) the intended target. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler.

Clearly the above text says and the range 3 section points towards or Touches the intended target.

Not to mention the FAQ page 1

When measuring range during combat, if the edge of the range ruler between the closest points of the two ships overlaps an obstacle token, the attack is considered obstructed.

Closest point to closest point means just that.

Now if the range ruler fits between the two ships its out of range.

If the ranage ruler doesn't fit between the two ships its in ranage.

Ive never seen a player yet who can say the range ruler is exactly a single milometer out

Edited by Bazinga

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"If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target

ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot

be targeted"

The overlap sections details how to determine which range increment the target is in. At range 3, the range ruler simply has to reach the target. I would consider touching its base as within reach.

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If the ruler is touching it is overlapping part of the base because otherwise it's really easy to nudge a ship that extra space. Even just placing it between instead of hanging it over probably nudged the ship.

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Page 19 states

The range ruler is divided into three sections, and each section is labeled with a number (1, 2, or 3). When the rules instruct a player to “measure the distance,” always orient the range ruler so that the Range 1 section touches the point of origin (usually the active ship) and the Range 3 section points toward (or touches) the intended target. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 2,” it means that the closest part of the intended target’s base must fall under the “Range 2” section of the range ruler. When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler.

Clearly the above text says and the range 3 section points towards or Touches the intended target.

 

 

What I read clearly is that:

 

When the rules refer to a ship being "at range 1-3", it means that the target's base must fall under any section of the range ruler.

 

The "touch part" you quote refers to act of measuring distance. But in the case of attacks, they have range. Primary weapon attacks can hit targets at range 1-3, So, we apply the above rule to check if the target is at range 1-3.

 

- Is the target ship's base under any section of the range ruler?

- No, the range ruler rests on the table, and no part of the enemy's base falls under it.

- Then, the target is not at range 1-3.  

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It refers to any effect that needs to determine at which range it occurs.

 

In the case of attacks, (range section) pg 10:

 

Each ship’s primary weapon can target ships at
Range 1–3 (i.e., at Range 1, 2, or 3).
 
So, we need the above rule to determine if the enemy is being at range 1-3.
 
Neverthless, the rule is transcribed again on the very same attack (Range) section:
 
To measure range, place the Range 1 end of the
range ruler so that it touches the closest part
of the attacker’s base. Then point the ruler toward
the closest part of the target ship’s base that is
inside the attacker’s firing arc. The lowest section (1,
2, or 3) of the ruler that OVERLAPS the target ship’s
base is considered the range between the ships.
 
If the ruler is not long enough to REACH the target
ship, the ship is considered out of range and cannot
be targeted. A ship may be within range, but still fall
outside the attacker’s firing arc.
 
Emphasis mine.
 
If a given ruler's section doesn't overlap the target's base, then the target is not in that range. So, If the whole ruler is resting on the table, simply "touching" the bases, it is not overlapping anything, and thus, target is not at Range 1-3. The ruler actually has to reach the enemy's base and overlap it in order to be considered at Range, allowing the attack. 

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The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship’s base is considered the range between the ships.

This part tells you how to determine the range of the attack. For example the lower part of section two overlaps the ship then its range two.

How is that hard to understand?

No where does it specify the fare part of the range ruler has to overlap.

If the ruler is not long enough to reach the target ship its out of range. Nope it didn't say the ruler had to overlap now did it.

What your suggestion is basically.....

I can satisfy every requirement in both the rule book and faq for measuring ranage, target locking, measuring ranage when attacking through an asteroid, measuring ranage for abilities that require ranage measurement. Because its closest point to closest point.

But a completely seperate rule for attacking exist.

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If there is any space at all then the range ruler is not touching the target and it is out of range. If the range ruler touches the base of the other ship, and your base, then the range ruler has reached the target and you may fire on it. That is the only clause with regards to determining a legal target with regards to the range ruler.

 

Overlapping with the range ruler is a function of determining the category of range (1, 2, or 3). This problem is one of determining if the target is a legal target, in that it can be reached by the range ruler and thus be a legal target.

 

Since you must use the edge for determining range, and only the edge for determining range, I fail to see how the edge, which makes contact with the base, doesn't count when considering if the ruler has reached the target.

Edited by Sergovan

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I don't know what else to say. I see it clearly.... Contact is not overlapping. Period.... And the rules say very clearly that the ruler has to overlap the target's base in order to be considered 'in range'. Using the edge or the width is totally irrelevant for this discussion.

 

Frankly guys, I don't know why we are still discussing this.

 

Nothing in this game triggers simply by 'contact'.... Colissions with obstacles... blocking other ships.... Everything actually has to physically overlap in order to interactuate.

 

If the ruler makes contact with the target's base, but is not long enough to overlap it... It only means that range 3 ends just before the target's base, and beyond that, and including the base, begins range 4.

 

Since reading the rules seems not enough to convince you, I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do to enlight this subject.

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I don't know what else to say. I see it clearly.... Contact is not overlapping. Period.... And the rules say very clearly that the ruler has to overlap the target's base in order to be considered 'in range'. Using the edge or the width is totally irrelevant for this discussion.

 

Incorrect, the rule actually state that to determine what range a ship's base is in you have to see which range increment overlaps the targets base.  You are arguing the first part of the measurement with a range ruler. I am arguing the second point of it in that if you reach your target with the range ruler they are a target. You are arguing the merits of overlap. I am arguing the merits of 'reaching your target' with the range ruler.

 

Frankly guys, I don't know why we are still discussing this.

 

Nothing in this game triggers simply by 'contact'.... Colissions with obstacles... blocking other ships.... Everything actually has to physically overlap in order to interactuate.

 

If the ruler makes contact with the target's base, but is not long enough to overlap it... It only means that range 3 ends just before the target's base, and beyond that, and including the base, begins range 4.

 

Since reading the rules seems not enough to convince you, I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do to enlight this subject.

 

I have asked FFG for a clarification of "reached" as I know what overlap is and how it is used. I will post their reply when I receive it; So there was technically more you could have done.

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I don't know what else to say. I see it clearly.... Contact is not overlapping. Period.... And the rules say very clearly that the ruler has to overlap the target's base in order to be considered 'in range'. Using the edge or the width is totally irrelevant for this discussion.

 

Frankly guys, I don't know why we are still discussing this.

 

Nothing in this game triggers simply by 'contact'.... Colissions with obstacles... blocking other ships.... Everything actually has to physically overlap in order to interactuate.

 

If the ruler makes contact with the target's base, but is not long enough to overlap it... It only means that range 3 ends just before the target's base, and beyond that, and including the base, begins range 4.

 

Since reading the rules seems not enough to convince you, I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do to enlight this subject.

Because the rules as written don't actually say what your saying.

Your entire argument has taken the overlapping part of determining the range and ignored the text where it says you have to simply reach.

As its been pointed out the overlapping rules say lowest section.

This means the range three has a lower section and an upper section. Although the rules never mention an upper section you cant physicaly have one with out the other.

The lower section is the part closer to the range one end of the ruler and the upper section of the ruler is the part wich is closest to the end of the range 3 edge.

No where in any rules about measuring anything does it suggest anywhere that this upper section have to overlap.

What you have done is misquote the rules.

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As its been pointed out the overlapping rules say lowest section.

This means the range three has a lower section and an upper section. Although the rules never mention an upper section you cant physicaly have one with out the other.

The lower section is the part closer to the range one end of the ruler and the upper section of the ruler is the part wich is closest to the end of the range 3 edge.

 

I think you are misinterpreting what 'section' means.

 

The ruler has 3 sections

 

Section 1 (Close)

Section 2 (Medium)

Section 3 (Long)

 

From your words, you seem to interpret that each of those sections has a lower and upper part. That's wrong. Sections don't have 'parts' or 'subdivisions'.  It is incorrect to say: "I'm under the upper section of section 2". or "I'm at the lowest section of section 3". The only thing that matters is if your base is under a given section or not.

 

The rules say, Page 10, Range:

The lowest section (1, 2, or 3) of the ruler that overlaps the target ship's base is considered the range between the ships.

 

When the rules say the "lowest section" it means the lowest NUMBERED section that overlaps the base. In other words, if two sections overlap a base simultaneously, let's say, Section 1 (close) and Section 2 (medium), the target is considered to be at the lowest numbered section range, which in this example is Section 1, so, target is at range 1.

 

Thus, if the range ruler section 3 doesn't overlap the target's base, the target's base is not under the lowest numbered section (3 in this example), in fact, the ship is not under any numbered section, which by the rules can only mean that the target is not in range.

 

Page 9: Range Ruler header:

When the rules refer to a ship being “at Range 1–3,” it means that the target’s base must fall under any section of the range ruler.
 
The target's base MUST FALL UNDER the ruler. If you are in contact with it, you are not under it. The base can only be under the ruler if the ruler overlaps the base. The lowest [numbered] section of the ruler that overlaps the target's base is considered the range between ships. If the section 3 of the ruler doesn't overlap the target's base, you are not considered to be at range 3.
 
 
I have asked FFG for a clarification of "reached" as I know what overlap is and how it is used. I will post their reply when I receive it; So there was technically more you could have done.

 

 

Obviously, I meant "I can do nothing more in the context of this discussion". But I deeply thank you for taking the time and effort of mailing FFG, of course.
Edited by Jehan Menasis

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Dear ffg

Can I attack if the the range ruler is unable to fit between the two ships with out me moving either ship.

My opponent thinks this is called just touching.

I know the rules say to use the side of the ruler but ive now layed the ruler down flat across the top of the two ships.

Both ends of the range ruler is touching the bases in fact ive now started to place objects across the ruler and its supporting the weight. Okay we have to stop both ships from sliding backwards but you do what you must.

But now my opponent whos a little bit of a rules lawyer says dispite now balancing the falcon on the ruler as well ive actually got to be overlapping in this instance can you clarify how much is overlapping?

A centimeter or a one hundredth of a milometer?

Wait now his saying its not over lapping enough.

Edited by Bazinga

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Dear ffg

Can I attack if the the range ruler is unable to fit between the two ships with out me moving either ship.

My opponent thinks this is called just touching.

I know the rules say to use the side of the ruler but ive now layed the ruler down flat across the top of the two ships.

Both ends of the range ruler is touching the bases in fact ive now started to place objects across the ruler and its supporting the weight. Okay we have to stop both ships from sliding backwards but you do what you must.

But now my opponent whos a little bit of a rules lawyer says dispite now balancing the falcon on the ruler as well ive actually got to be overlapping in this instance can you clarify how much is overlapping?

A centimeter or a one hundredth of a milometer?

Wait now his saying its not over lapping enough.

 

OK, if that is what you sent to FFG you are blatantly misrepresenting what is being discussed in this thread. The issue is explicitly that the ruler CAN fit between the two ships without moving either of them, but that when it does so the ends are in contact with the SIDES of the bases. The ruler is in contact with the playing surface for its entire length, it is not, in any way shape or form "across the top of the two ships"

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Fly casual, folks. If the roles were reversed I bet the former defender, and now the attacker, would want the more advantageous range. So it's a bit silly for the former defender to try to argue that the range ruler touching both bases is not within that range. If there is no visible gap, call it for what it is. Have fun, it's just a game. Karma will get you.

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Dear ffg

Can I attack if the the range ruler is unable to fit between the two ships with out me moving either ship.

My opponent thinks this is called just touching.

I know the rules say to use the side of the ruler but ive now layed the ruler down flat across the top of the two ships.

Both ends of the range ruler is touching the bases in fact ive now started to place objects across the ruler and its supporting the weight. Okay we have to stop both ships from sliding backwards but you do what you must.

But now my opponent whos a little bit of a rules lawyer says dispite now balancing the falcon on the ruler as well ive actually got to be overlapping in this instance can you clarify how much is overlapping?

A centimeter or a one hundredth of a milometer?

Wait now his saying its not over lapping enough.

OK, if that is what you sent to FFG you are blatantly misrepresenting what is being discussed in this thread. The issue is explicitly that the ruler CAN fit between the two ships without moving either of them, but that when it does so the ends are in contact with the SIDES of the bases. The ruler is in contact with the playing surface for its entire length, it is not, in any way shape or form "across the top of the two ships"

I have never said anything about the sides of the base having anything to do with range except that if the ruler fits betwwen the two sides its out of range.

Thats the only thing we have agreed on.

Now your misrepresentating my argument.

Which is that If a ruler touches both bases and can not fit between the ships with out moving the ships its in range.

To be honest I've only seen one player try to argue what Jehan has been arguing, it was in a tournament the to invited him to play nicely with others buy playing casual or leaving. Because there is no possible way with a cupboard ruler that FFG produces especially one thats meant to be 30cm long, but in reality may be 29.9 can he claim he can see overlapping by 0.001 of a milometer.

He has also said that if I can not fit the ruler between two ships with out moving them he doesn't consider it to be overlapping.

But sadly no I didn't send that in I should have as an example of how Jenhan likes to abuse the system when every one else would have given their opponent the shoot. ;-)

It came up on boardgame geek ages ago and the consensus was they would have allowed it.

Edited by Bazinga

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 Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

Is this correct? If so, I've been playing wrong all this time. I was under the impression that contact - whether overlapping or not - meant you could no longer attack the ship you are in contact with. Am I misunderstanding how this works?

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Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

Is this correct? If so, I've been playing wrong all this time. I was under the impression that contact - whether overlapping or not - meant you could no longer attack the ship you are in contact with. Am I misunderstanding how this works?
In our meta it has certainly been "touching means overlap." At least until the next turn, per the FAQ.

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Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

Is this correct? If so, I've been playing wrong all this time. I was under the impression that contact - whether overlapping or not - meant you could no longer attack the ship you are in contact with. Am I misunderstanding how this works?
In our meta it has certainly been "touching means overlap." At least until the next turn, per the FAQ.

FAQ

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round? A: No

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Another example... If after your movement your base end 'touching' another ship's one, but you don't physically overlapped its base, you can still shoot at it, despite bases being 'in contact'.

Is this correct? If so, I've been playing wrong all this time. I was under the impression that contact - whether overlapping or not - meant you could no longer attack the ship you are in contact with. Am I misunderstanding how this works?
In our meta it has certainly been "touching means overlap." At least until the next turn, per the FAQ.

FAQ

Q: Can two ships be considered touching if neither ship overlapped the other ship during this round? A: No

 

To take Bazinga's answer a bit further, if they wanted "touching" to equal "overlap", there would be no need for the FAQ entry cited above. 

 

FWIW our meta does NOT use the "touching means overlap" interpretation. There has to be meaningful movement back down the template to be considered overlap.  As with so many things in this game, that leads to judgement interpretations which must be agreed upon by the participants.

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