Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
PhilOfCalth

Can a Devastator Marine Technically Carry 2 Heavy Weapons

54 posts in this topic

This thread is not asking if a devastator should be allowed to carry 2 heavy weapons. I'm purely asking from a mechanical and weight perspective would a devastator be able to carry 2 heavy weapons, just assuming he had some way of storing both on his person.

 

An average DW Space Marine starts with a SB of 10 in his power armour. Would that give him enough strength to lug around 2 Heavy bolters and his backpack ammo supply and whatever spare clips and other equipment is standard issue? What if the player put him up to a combined SB of 12? Has anyone else had a look at it and worked it all out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, but he'd better have good reason to do so lest the machine spirits might become offended. This is sacred gear. You don't treat it like any other old tool.

 

Alex

Edited by ak-73
Kshatriya likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering that a marine can in theory throw someone in Terminator Armour due to the mad way carry weight and lifting strength is done, yes. See http://1d4chan.org/images/2/27/Dougie_McIsaac.png for a potentially intriguing comedic example. At SB12 plus your TB of 8, going on the rules from P208 you can carry about 2.2 metric tons. A heavy bolter is only 68kg. And this is only going on the lifting chart as written, it's daft and whoever wrote it needs shooting. Unnatural Marine Strength and Toughness plus power armour make for stupidly high carry capacity. Theoretically then, assuming you had a way to secure this to your person then yes.

 

Our group found an easier way to consider what gear and weapons someone can carry is to use the rule of five hands.

 

A character can feasibly and securely carry five hands worth of weapons. (Gear is not generally considered since much of it is small)

Pistols and melee weapons usually require one hand. (EG Bolt Pistols or Chainswords)

Most other guns and large melee weapons require two hands. (EG Flamers, Boltguns, Claymore)

Heavy guns need three hands. (EG Heavy Bolter/Las Cannon etc)

 

This means a player can feasibly carry either five small melee weapons or pistols, two bolterlike weapons and a sidearm melee/pistol or one heavy weapon and a bolter/two pistol combination.

Edited by Calgor Grim
Lynata and Avdnm like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This really is not a question of weight limits, with the chart being designed for DH and not ever considering the practical applications of PCs with Unnaturals. 

 

So, there's no mechanical reason they can't carry it. But there is a practical/bulk reason, in that Astartes still have human proportions, 2 arms, one back, and one backpack unit provides ammo for one weapon type, not multiple.

 

Something my group has done is one person might take 2 heavy weapons, and leave one with their chattel or whatnot in case of emergency. But practically, a Dev is not going to "need" 2 heavy weapons for the same mission. Depending on mission parameters, the heavy bolter (with several special ammo types) or lascannon (punching through big solos) is the clear best option for the Dev, with a bolter as backup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This really is not a question of weight limits, with the chart being designed for DH and not ever considering the practical applications of PCs with Unnaturals. 

 

So, there's no mechanical reason they can't carry it. But there is a practical/bulk reason, in that Astartes still have human proportions, 2 arms, one back, and one backpack unit provides ammo for one weapon type, not multiple.

 

Something my group has done is one person might take 2 heavy weapons, and leave one with their chattel or whatnot in case of emergency. But practically, a Dev is not going to "need" 2 heavy weapons for the same mission. Depending on mission parameters, the heavy bolter (with several special ammo types) or lascannon (punching through big solos) is the clear best option for the Dev, with a bolter as backup.

Pretty much no weight or carry restrictions just the whole number of arms. A tech marine could maybe augment with mechanics but no dev as you mentioned should ever need more than one heavy weapon else they are doing it wrong!

Lynata likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am even more strict. I am guided by the images of Marines in the lore and by army lists/miniatures. Do they carry an extra Heavy Bolter? Surely not. While they could do so, it is against all regulations. The Imperium is not big on innovation.

 

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission. The upside of it is that it forces strategic decisions at arming stage. Basically, a guessing game of what they will face. (Makes Augury also quite valuable.)

 

Alex

 

PS Why would I take a combi-weapon if I can slug Bolter and Plasma Gun around?

Edited by ak-73
Lynata likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission.

Personally I don't like this much restriction. Especially for missions like A Stony Sleep that give out 100+ Req to characters who won't be able to take Termie armor or necessarily have Imperial assets to requisition (due to Renown or mission restrictions) I just don't see that there's enough stuff to spend it on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even for Uninitated PCs it's easily filled with Weapon Upgrades, Special Ammunition and Grenades. What I don't see is a Marine with a Flamer in hand and his Bolter slung around the torso. Also, handing out 100 Req to newly seconded should not be the norm.

 

Once you are Respected, and especially after reaching Distinguished, you have more than enough stuff to play with.

 

Alex

Lynata likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally bulk is the only issue with space marines. Generally I don't think a space marine could feasibly carry more than 2 heavies, and that is with some serious messing around. Generally most wouldn't want to carry around more than 1, additional bulk just slows them down.

 

 A space marine is deffinately NOT carrying around 2 ammo backpacks, nor an additional heavy attached to an ammo backpack, sorry common sense rule applies.

 

 

So what marines get is a main weapon and two sidearms (bolt pistol/chainsword) max (heavy weapons leave room for one sidearm). Anything else needs special permission.

Personally I don't like this much restriction. Especially for missions like A Stony Sleep that give out 100+ Req to characters who won't be able to take Termie armor or necessarily have Imperial assets to requisition (due to Renown or mission restrictions) I just don't see that there's enough stuff to spend it on.

 

This is pretty restrictive I agree (won't even discuss the "five hands" thing) it starts to turn the RPG into an FPS. You can find many places to bring more gear than you think without much difficulty, its just when you start getting into the bigger pieces of equipment you have issues.

Kshatriya likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it starts to turn the RPG into an FPS

 

I dunno - the "X hands" or "X slots" solution sounds more like intelligent streamlining to me. There is such a thing as too much detail... In the groups I played, most of the time I was the only one actually tracking weight limitations, and considering how rarely it played any role (about never), it felt pretty redundant after a while. I don't really know why I still kept doing it.

 

Also, considering that this equipment seems to be requisitioned anew for every mission, I'd wager the quartermaster would give you a funny look rather than the piece you want if you happen to ask him for some huge list.

 

... That being said, I am rather conservative when it comes to portraying what I know from the source material, so perhaps I just cannot get behind the idea of ~20 items dangling from a Marine's armour because it seems a bit alien and out of place to me.

 

 

As a compromise of sorts, if a Devastator player really, really, really wants to carry two heavy weapons, perhaps a Centurion suit would be a solution? Here's a thread with some suggested houserules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question you should be asking yourselves is: does the Codex Astartes support this? :D If not, chances are that the Watch Captain or Forgemaster won't either.

 

Space Marines are fairly set in their ways. There are rituals and lores to be observed. That's also why sharing equipment on a mission is treacherous ground. I'm playing a PBP in which me and some others at Famed renown are playing with Uninitiated PCs. It would be easy to circumvent the requisition mechanics through equipment sharing. I would discourage that as GM, making Machine Spirits rebel and Watch Captains dishing out harsh punishment unless it's an absolute emergency situations (like averting TPK).

 

In short: Space Marines are not just special forces. You don't do whatever you feel like, except as an exception. You are part of an ancient tradition and those traditions need to be followed.

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?  A lascannon for taking out the hive tyrant while he carries the heavy bolter for the hordes of smaller tyranids perhaps.  It seems more likely, and a Tech-priest could have servitors equiped with heavy weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?

 

While I could imagine this for certain chapters, I'm not sure about Deathwatch. If, under any circumstances, I as GM would allow it, I'd really have an eye on all fear rolls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about anyone else but I can't see the Deathwatch using much in the way of minions very often. Consider that in their roll they may need to perform acts of stealth or infiltration, boarding and harsh attacks, using a  non Astartes would perhaps only get in the way more than the potential benefit of them actually carrying gear for them. Since non marines are arguably less resilient, more susceptible to fear, insanity and corruption, using perhaps weaker gear...

 

I mean I can see Tech Marines needing servitors once in a while but their practical use is somewhat niche. However, I think First Founding allows players to acquire a Watcher in the Dark which could act as a carrier of items.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Depending on the character could he be looking to have a minion carry one for him as a special use item?  A lascannon for taking out the hive tyrant while he carries the heavy bolter for the hordes of smaller tyranids perhaps.  It seems more likely, and a Tech-priest could have servitors equiped with heavy weapons.

 

While not impossible, you should always ask yourself the question: why doesn't every DW marine do it then?

 

To me, the most acceptable version is to store an additional weapon in a Rhino or other vehicle and to change weapons during mission as needed. As Watch Captain, I would probably put limits on that though. Can't drive half an armory around.

 

Alex

Lynata likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dark Angels can have Watchers in the Dark, as they are cannon and even carry things for marines in battle.  I believe they normally carry relics and such, but don't know if that is a specific limit.  They are 'near immune to all acts of violence and psychic powers' as well.  Techmarine using servitors to carry additional weapons makes sense too, and they can't feel fear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can find all kinds of followers in the books, mostly in First Founding, where there are rules to create them. So at a high enough rank technically anyone can get a servitor to lug the baggage around, even on the battlefield, although I doubt a Fenrisian Wolf would allow a heavy bolter to be strapped on its back.

I support leaving additional weaponry in the Rhino / Thunderhawk / drop pod, because, duh, common sense. A fun way to discourage PCs from making Christmas trees out of themselves is to blow up extra weapons and  ammunition when the body part covered by said unnecessary weapon is hit. I think there's a rule for that somewhere in the explosive crit tables.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even for Uninitated PCs it's easily filled with Weapon Upgrades, Special Ammunition and Grenades. What I don't see is a Marine with a Flamer in hand and his Bolter slung around the torso. Also, handing out 100 Req to newly seconded should not be the norm.

 

Eh, not really. They really dropped the ball with reasonable req for special grenades and missiles, imo.

 

Space Marines are fairly set in their ways. There are rituals and lores to be observed. That's also why sharing equipment on a mission is treacherous ground. I'm playing a PBP in which me and some others at Famed renown are playing with Uninitiated PCs. It would be easy to circumvent the requisition mechanics through equipment sharing. I would discourage that as GM, making Machine Spirits rebel and Watch Captains dishing out harsh punishment unless it's an absolute emergency situations (like averting TPK).

 

I agree but the game you're describing is imo a fringe case; not many groups are going to have active characters on opposite ends of the Renown spectrum. If everyone is the same Renown level, sharing is a lot less of a big deal and practically there's little difference between "I req X and hand it to my Brother" versus "I give my leftover req to my Brother so he can take X."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I consider special missiles and grenades to be fairly priced. Not competetively priced for what else you can get but... I consider them rare. Because they don't appear in Space Marine army lists. So they must be very restricted access.

 

As for Pooling Req, the Corebook clearly allows it. However, the way it's phrased might give a GM enough grounds to limit it:

"Each Battle-Brother on the Mission then has a number of Requisition Points equal to that rating with which to arm himself. [...] A Squad may choose to pool their Requisition Points for a communal item or to Requisition a particularly rare item for one member."

 

That gives the impression that pooling Req at will and handing out items to whoever is not exactly in the spirit of Req use. Yes, if the team thinks that the Devastator needs that Sanctified Multi-Melta, they can pool Req (if they all meet Renown).  But I don't think simply adding up unused Req and then letting whoever wants to requisition from that pool is in the spirit of the rules.

 

And Followers are of course okay, since you pay for them. Again, there should be a limit of how many Followers should be attached to a kill-team. Having a Follower is rather exception than rule, no?

 

Alex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hold up, you're telling me it requires two hands to wield a bolt gun? Literally everything I see of them shows them with the easy potential to akimbo those things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you mean "hands" not hands.  It takes two "hands" to carry a boltgun (in the five-hands methodology, which sounds like a charm in Exalted), just like it takes three "hands" to carry a heavy bolter.

 

I tend to think in slightly less restrictive terms, but not by much.  My guideline (emphasis is that this is flexible): Carrying three weapons, one of which must be a sidearm and one of which might be Heavy, is usually fine.

 

Stalker bolter, plasmagun and chainsword?  I can picture exactly where all of those would go.  Plasma Cannon, Stormbolter and Bolt Pistol?  Pushing it, but maybe. Two Plasma Cannon?  Where does the second ammo pack go?! 

 

I think you can get creative and find other ways to bring in additional gear, but the methods which occur to me I would not use for relic weapons or anything that the Deathwatch wouldn't be willing to sacrifice.  Disposable, one-shot missile launchers, melta bombs and camoleoline tarps, climbing gear, spare ammo and etc could all be feasibly transported via an Astartes-flavoured little red wagon...

 

I call it the boom cart.  :D

Lynata likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0