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Kaiden Gnosis

Forsee Incomplete?

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Forsee in the AoR Beta states:

 

"The Force user can feel the force flowing around everything, seeing what is and what will be."

 

It then goes on to say you can spend 1 force to gain vague hints of things to come, and pretty much the whole power is devoted to seeing the future and gaining initiative. But nothing on seeing the present or past. Yoda said you would see the past, as in "friends long gone". As far as I can tell, there is no power other than Forsee that could account for Luke seeing the training remote through the helmet's blastshield. Sense only allows for sensing living beings. So where is this aspect of Forsee? I am really hoping this is something they fix in the AoR Beta before printing the Core AoR book.

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That was brought up during the Beta, but never got mention by the design team in the Beta updates.

 

It seems that a lot of the focus on the power is "future events" rather than past, present, and future that Farseeing has typically covered in prior Star Wars RPGs.

 

Time will tell if Foresee was updated in AoR to extend to past events, or if it's strictly "visions of the future."

 

Then again, I think the only time we really see this kind of thing being used to view the past was Luke using what he called "short term memory enhancement" in the Thrawn Trilogy, noting it as something Yoda had taught him and allowing him to revisit recent memories of his from what amounted to a third-person perspective (much like viewing memories in a pensieve if you're a Potterfan) and thus enabling him to pick up on various details that he'd missed at the time.

Josep Maria and kaosoe like this

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I just feel that having no explanation for Luke sensing the target droid when it was his first display of the Force is a big oversight, unless they are going to suggest in F&D that Jedi can deflect without the use of sight. Still, to quote Luke, "I could almost see the remote." Up till now FF Games has been quite excellent at making Force powers. I'm amazed how well they facillitated force jumps with Enhance (something West End Games never got right, and Saga required a calculator to figure out how far you could jump with Burst of Speed). I'd hate to see them blow a relatively simple power by comparison.

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I just feel that having no explanation for Luke sensing the target droid when it was his first display of the Force is a big oversight, unless they are going to suggest in F&D that Jedi can deflect without the use of sight. Still, to quote Luke, "I could almost see the remote." Up till now FF Games has been quite excellent at making Force powers. I'm amazed how well they facillitated force jumps with Enhance (something West End Games never got right, and Saga required a calculator to figure out how far you could jump with Burst of Speed). I'd hate to see them blow a relatively simple power by comparison.

 

Well, it's not really necessary to devise an entire Force power just to account for one line from one scene.

 

The talents in the different Force talent trees can easily account for a good, lucky roll in pulling off a really difficult check, if you really want to look at it in terms of game mechanics.

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Three points:

1) Forsee can allow you to see specific details, if upgraded enough. This, mixed with initiative, could describe hitting an unknown target.

2) If you want to get real technical, there are bacteria and small life forms flying around in the air, and when the blast fires, these life forms will die, creating light tremors in the Force. With Force Sense, you will be able to notice these tremors, and thusly understand the coordinates of the blaster bolt, and with enough training you could block it.

3) The Star Wars system that FFG uses is narrative, and whatever feels cool with you is cool to do. If you decide seeing an incoming blow ought to be Forsee or Sense or anything, it's still all up to you.

edisung and Josep Maria like this

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Good points, but there is nothing in Forsee that suggests a mechanism for viewing the present.

Edited by Kai den Gnosis

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I just feel that having no explanation for Luke sensing the target droid when it was his first display of the Force is a big oversight, unless they are going to suggest in F&D that Jedi can deflect without the use of sight. Still, to quote Luke, "I could almost see the remote." Up till now FF Games has been quite excellent at making Force powers. I'm amazed how well they facillitated force jumps with Enhance (something West End Games never got right, and Saga required a calculator to figure out how far you could jump with Burst of Speed). I'd hate to see them blow a relatively simple power by comparison.

That would probably be the GM allowing Luke's possession of the Sense power to overcome the whole "can't see anything" and narratively describe him learning to use the Force.  Also could be covered by the Uncanny Senses talent, providing a boost die to his Perception check to "detect" the remote and being a "between action sequences" justification for him picking up the defensive Control Upgrade for Sense, or perhaps even purchasing the Duration and Strength Upgrades, as well as a rank in the Lightsaber skill.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to presume that FFG has "blown it" when it comes to Force users, because both EotE and AoR treat Force users as a minor element.  I suspect that come Force & Destiny, there will be a few additional sidebars with tidbits about how to use the existing powers to cover relatively trivial things like "Luke sensing the remote through the Force."  Could even be that they'll update the effects of the Sense basic power to allow it to pick up non-living sentient targets (like droids) as well, or allow the PC an option to do just that.

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I just feel that having no explanation for Luke sensing the target droid when it was his first display of the Force is a big oversight, unless they are going to suggest in F&D that Jedi can deflect without the use of sight. Still, to quote Luke, "I could almost see the remote." Up till now FF Games has been quite excellent at making Force powers. I'm amazed how well they facillitated force jumps with Enhance (something West End Games never got right, and Saga required a calculator to figure out how far you could jump with Burst of Speed). I'd hate to see them blow a relatively simple power by comparison.

That would probably be the GM allowing Luke's possession of the Sense power to overcome the whole "can't see anything" and narratively describe him learning to use the Force.  Also could be covered by the Uncanny Senses talent, providing a boost die to his Perception check to "detect" the remote and being a "between action sequences" justification for him picking up the defensive Control Upgrade for Sense, or perhaps even purchasing the Duration and Strength Upgrades, as well as a rank in the Lightsaber skill.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to presume that FFG has "blown it" when it comes to Force users, because both EotE and AoR treat Force users as a minor element.  I suspect that come Force & Destiny, there will be a few additional sidebars with tidbits about how to use the existing powers to cover relatively trivial things like "Luke sensing the remote through the Force."  Could even be that they'll update the effects of the Sense basic power to allow it to pick up non-living sentient targets (like droids) as well, or allow the PC an option to do just that.

 

I like that interpretation! Allow a Force user to see without using your eyes as just part of the Control effect, including reading. It wouldn't be particularly game breaking at all honestly, there are species (Miraluka) that pretty much do just that. It's just part of the effect of using a Sense power, or committing a Sense die.

Edited by TarlSS

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Yes, blow it is too strong a term. As I said previously I am very impressed with how they have handled Force powers. I wonder how hard it is to make changes to Force powers in later editions. Most systems don't like to changes things they print in core books. I've always judged Star Wars systems based on their Force rules. I believe it's intrinsic to the genre, and is one of the hardest abilities to define as Lucas purposefully keeps a certain amount of vagueness in defining what the Force can do. I like to bring up points I feel may be lacking in the hopes that FF Games is listening. If F&D works right I can easily see this becoming my favorite rpg of all time.

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Given that this specific question has something to do with lightsaber combat, I want to say check F&D when it comes out, since this doesn't really have much to do with the Foresee power.

At the end of the day, many movie effects could easily have been accomplished by a collection of talents, not powers. Look at my question about how Luke blew up the Death Star in the EoE forum. I came up with no less than 3 possibilities, with replies including almost a dozen more. Luke could have used a combination of Perception and initiative affecting talents, used a yet unpublished (signature ability?) upgrade for Sense or another power, a whole different power that has yet to come out, or something innate to lightsaber combat and the Force. It's tough to say, but unlike WotC's Jedi Counselling articles, which were little more than an attempt to hamfist the movies and video games into d20 rules, FFG Star Wars is about the narrative and the effect, not really the mechanics behind it.

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Perhaps it isn't the Forsee power. The desription reads "seeing what is and will be". They may want to change that descriptor if there is no mechanism for seeing what is.

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Is it possible that while training with the remote Luke used "Forsee" to anticipate the yet to be launched attacks of the remote?

It is quite possible that the ability will be in FaD or some other forthcoming book.

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As far as I can tell, there is no power other than Forsee that could account for Luke seeing the training remote through the helmet's blastshield.

Doesn't need to be a Force Power. Could be a Force Talent, like the ones that give you bonuses to Vigilance. To me that's a lot more appropriate since Luke lacked enough training to be consciously using powers in ANH to begin with.

Edited by Kshatriya
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A Talent would also work. Luke's line was "I could almost see the remote". Perhaps he was not speaking of literally almost physically "seeing" the remote through the blast shield, but seeing/feeling it in his mind's eye.

I don't have the text of "Foresee" so I can't say for certain.

I can see a number of Talents in the basic Force Sensitive Exile tree that could combine to reproduce Luke's ability to counter the remote while blindfolded. It would take more experience than I think Luke had available to spend on that tree to get them all though, so I am not happy with it as an explanation. At least not if Luke plays by the same rules as player characters.

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At least not if Luke plays by the same rules as player characters.

There's no reason to believe that he does. He's an NPC.

Edited by Kshatriya

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True enough. In fact, Luke on screen is a movie character, in novels he is a character in a book, neither requires him to follow the rules of an RPG.

EotE, AoR, and FaD try to emulate the rest of Star Wars, but because RPGs are a different medium than movies, novels, comics, toys, etc so the emulation will never be perfect.

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Is it possible that while training with the remote Luke used "Forsee" to anticipate the yet to be launched attacks of the remote?

It is quite possible that the ability will be in FaD or some other forthcoming book.

 

I see that as Sense, and allocating a FD to defense. 

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Is that a viable explanation to explain Luke's use of the Force to sense the remote? Force abilities adding bonuses to allow overcoming a high difficulty for total blindness?

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Mechanically speaking, the remote probably got no bonuses for Luke defending. Luke would've had higher difficulty if he was actually attacking, but in this scenario, it'd be a bit similar to a player being shot at from behind by an enemy they hadn't seen - they don't see the attack coming, but the attack could still be dodged if they are particularly intuitive or can hear things going on behind them.

 

Besides, at least half the time that remote was in engaged range, that's mechanically just making things easier to block/dodge.

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The more I think of it, the more it seems like it would be an upgraded defense die from Sense. 

The problem wasn't him not seeing it – he was lousy at blocking when he was using his eyes. The exercise was about letting the Force dictate his defense rather than him doing it himself. 

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After thinking about this a little more, the question is are Force users able to see things in the present without sight? Did Luke "see" the exhuast port? Could Qui-gon and Obi-Wan "see" the battle droids even though the room was filled with obscuring gas? Could Luke "see" the remote? While I am not an expert, the expanded universe would suggest yes. The movies are deliberately more vague. Two out of the three of these examples could be explained by simply not requiring sight to use a lightsaber deflection ability, and there are many, many posts, suggesting that luke's Death Star shot was just Force bonuses to a very tough attack roll.

 

Ultimately this is something the game designers have to answer. I certainly could see a problem with Jedi always knowing what's in a room before they enter. On the other hand, we could use Forsee now to look a few seconds ahead before they enter the room. Now I know why they waited to do Force and Destiny last.

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I wouldn't use the word "see" so much as "perceive." The Force allows for ESP, and a limited (non-Force Power, in system terms) precognition which allows them to put their lightsaber in the firing line of a blaster before it even fires, allowing them to deflect the shot (though in the system, this might be reflected by the Sense defensive commitment line).

 

For deflecting shots, it's almost like detecting "killing intent," which is sort of funny that it works on attacks made by droids since they wouldn't be broadcasting a "killing intent" through their presence in the Force, since they lack that. 

 

 

 

Ultimately this is something the game designers have to answer. I certainly could see a problem with Jedi always knowing what's in a room before they enter. On the other hand, we could use Forsee now to look a few seconds ahead before they enter the room. Now I know why they waited to do Force and Destiny last.

Jedi traditionally are able to sense life- i.e. sense the auras of other living things in the Force. That's different from Foresee and plays into each Force-user's "Force presence," which skills such as Force Stealth (which Palpatine among others employed - shrinking his "active" presence in the Force as a Force-user to a microscopic level so it was not perceptible and he was read as mundane).

Edited by Kshatriya

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