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Pudgyrancor2356

Allowing players to buy the force talent trees

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Just wanted to ask some more experienced GM's out there thier thoughts on this subject. My "rules attorney" in my group has expressed that there are no rules that govern that a person can't purchase the force talent tree as long as they pay the proper amount of XP to get it.

 

Myself I don't feel that a PC should be allowed to this after character creation. I think that if you create a FSE then you can get the talent trees, but since the "rules attorney" says there are no rules that say such and there doesn't seem to be as we looked. I had to allow it, but I feel that you cannot just train in the force if you are not a force user. This particular is OP'd as hell without the force but wanted to pick up the force talent tree to be even more OP, but hey that is what PC's do.

 

I also have a conudrum because I have a FSE that at character creation created a FSE and had a totally bad ass backstory. He is also the perfect PC as he doesn't cause problems doesn't ask for ridiculous crap and just wants to do cool stuff, but the other players want everything and be as bad as possible so they can totally derail every adventure that I throw at them.

 

I had the idea of telling the player if you don't drop the force tree I will send 5 emperors hands to kill your PC. What do you all think?

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Unfortunately for your position anyone can purchase the tree, it's considered a universal tree and can bought as though it was a career spec tree.  However, that's not to say you can't require a good backstory as well for your player before you allow it.  You're also the GM, you're allowed to say no.

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It is my belief that the rules state that a character needs a force rating of one or higher ti be able to buy the force specilization and then the force talents would open up ro him/her. And some characters could manifest some force sensitivity at a late age. However, i would be inclined to tell the character that he has no force rating and therefore cannot buy the force sensitivity specilization. Which then would allow him to buy force powers. Unless you have started having him do strange stuff like move objects or feel someones emotional thoughts in critical times as if his will was acting on its own to help preserve the character. Then i would tell him he has no force rating and therefore cannot buy into the force specilization.

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This same argument came up back in the d20 days, and the answer is the same now as it was then: there's nothing stopping a player from "buying into" becoming Force-sensitive after character creation.

 

Look at Princess Leia as the prime example: there's barely anything until the end of the original trilogy that even suggests that she's got a connection to the Force, and if she were statted out as a PC, you certainly wouldn't give her Force powers.

 

The character is simply unaware and unattuned at that point, just like a PC who hasn't yet bought into a Force specialization.

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It is my belief that the rules state that a character needs a force rating of one or higher ti be able to buy the force specilization 

 

Except you don't have a Force Rating until you've bought a Force specialization, is the thing.

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But a character cannot just decide to be force sensitive. And as a gm i would wanna make it shiw up in dramatic ways and in critical times. So as to prelude or hint to him that he has become force sensitive.

Especially if he is already op. I hate it when players have to have op characters...it destroys the game.and ends up being less cimematic and dramatic. Is exactly why i play and gm. I hope you tell this player no. As he is good enough without having to have the force talents. Look at han solo never once wanted the force. He didnt need it. Also it could end up ailienating your other force sensitive player who isnt op already.if the op player decides to make it a one man/woman show....

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I've had this same discussion with my group, and we see it as an oversight on FFGs part. Instead of bickering over who can buy it and when/why, I've taking a page from the old d6 game:

 

 

During character creation, you must inform the GM if your character is Force Sensitive or not. You are not required to purchase anything stating this sensitivity, but must announce it for roleplaying, story, and character development purposes.

 

That said, my entire table had to tell me if their respective characters would even have the CHANCE of picking up these talents. Four members said that they are Force Sensitive, one member has simply called it a "No" (the former Stormtrooper), and the last is on the fence (it's my wife, who has little gaming experience and no number crunching capability, so I'm letting it slide for now). 

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For the sake of story I think a house rule simply asking people if they want to consider Force sensitivity is a decent idea.  In regards to allowing someone to purchase the universal Force trees it seems to me a GM is always the last word but just saying no without a reason seems a bit harsh.  Beyond that I can't understand where the bickering would come into play, it seems pretty straightforward to me.

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I actually went back to look through the old WEG Star Wars rules, did you know it was in the second edition version of the movie trilogy that Leia starts off as force sensitive?

 

The original books also stipulated that they needed a tutor to even learn to become force sensitive and if that student had dark side points the Master wouldn't teach them (unless they were Sith or Dark Jedi of course but that wasn't mentioned in there!) huh wish I read that properly would have solved more than a couple of situations I had problems with back in the d6 days! ;)

 

Anyway had another look at both Edge and AoR and noted something interesting...

 

The Force Sensitive Exile is not just any Force sensitive being; he/she is one who survived the purges.

he may have been a young Padawan or even a Minor Jedi who managed to flee the Empire and hide, he may have also been a child hidden by family or friends whatever the case they've spent those years in a hostile galaxy where their formal training was limited or even non-existant sort of like the Quixotic Jedi from old d6 except their talents may have been somewhat realised before they went into hiding (sort of like Kanan I suppose... :huh:)

 

Now the Force Emergent are those under the protection of the Rebellion so they have a chance of training and even finding others like them who can teach them those handy tricks that they don't know yet... (That was a hint for your rules lawyer although I don't know if you want them reading that! :P).

 

The question you need to ask any player wanting to become force sensitive after the game starts is... who is going to train them?

 

After all the only way they can gain that force sensitive universal career is if someone already possesses it and are willing to teach them so how do they fancy becoming the Padawan of the only member of your group who is force sensitive? :)

 

And are they willing to teach them?

 

Hmm I wonder would you retain the restriction that they can only teach one of them at a time and until they've finished training they can't teach anyone else and their Padawan can't either whilst they're being trained... something for Force & Destiny to resolve I think! (Anyone with Saga or d20 knowledge knoe if that was retained in those versions I don't think its in either Edge or AoR?)

 

Still limited in what they can learn ideally the only force powers they can learn are those they know from the start or learn from others they can't just become force sensitive and be able to immediately use the Move force power unless their tutor knows that power and I'd have assumed trying to pick up new careers would be limited to what's available and whose willing to teach them anyway.

 

One final thought, in this game anyone becoming force sensitive has a really big target on their back once discovered, I think FFG's game is the first where its actually possible to have a tech device that can detect you are actually force sensitive so is your already force sensitive player willing to teach that newcomer or will the newcomer look for someone else to teach them knowing full well its probably a trap? :)

 

Hold on if your force sensitive exile player is teaching the new guy to become force sensitive what do they get out of it?

 

Do they get to improve themselves if they're using say a holocron to explain how they're activating someone else's force sensitivity?

 

Oh I am so going to follow this discussion! :)

Edited by copperbell

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Creating a background for a character is the first step in the process, which is listed as Step 1. in the RAW.  Seems to me the game places importance on the story of who the character is.  If someone were to come up with a good story as to when they became a Force Sensitive later that's fine imo.

 

In regards to training I think when someone expresses interest in being Force Sensitive at whatever stage of the process and has a good story, and the GM agrees, it's incumbent on the GM to come up with some of the facts and details about that as much as the player. Be it a mentor, or the player was simply a teenage Padawan and had already learned some skills, as well as, exercises and regimens to follow for further self expansion, or a Holocron with Jedi 101 in it. 

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Are they willing to spend the experience to start off as force sensitive?

 

If they're under the impression its something they can pick up later especially if one of the others decides to start off as force sensitive it might be better to discuss ways they can become force sensitive after the game starts...

 

Edit: Ah beaten to the punch... I think twice already! :(

 

Would the player whose character is force sensitive be willing to forgo training themselves to teach someone else instead and would you enforce the restriction that they can only have one student at a time no matter what they showed in that Old Republic graphic novel! :D

 

Hey I'm a novice, how about we wait until I've developed my own talents first and then teach you when I'm ready?

 

Have your players given any reason for why they've become force sensitive other than they have the xp they can spend on it and don't know why they can't do so? :o

 

Anyone seen that teaching skill? :rolleyes:

Edited by copperbell

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While I understand the powergamer problem involved, I think it's sort of silly to say someone CAN'T become FS at any point in their life.  Many things can happen that wake up a FS to what they possess (Luke is a good example).  So it's not ridiculous to say that someone becomes awakened to their abilities, or at least becomes aware of them.  The scoundrel who's a crack shot spends his life thinking he's quicker on the draw because he's good....guess what, he's actually FS and taps that latent bit of the force that makes him act at just the right time.  You can apply this to many careers and scenarios.  

 

I'm not sure being a FSE is that OP considering that you have such minimal force dice to work with even at the max rate right now.  The powers they have in the game so far are pretty vague and weak in that you would be hard pressed to pop a power at full level without a tremendous amount of XP spent.  I think this is for a reason.  I think FFG wants people to slowly ramp up to F&D where we will see the cork come out of the bottle. 

 

The argument of "well who will teach the FSE???" is sort of silly as well in that a FSE can have these very minimal basic powers we are given and use them without some sort of proper training.  No one is going to be pulling clone wars antics with what we have....as I see it, the pips just aren't there for that to happen. 

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The argument of "well who will teach the FSE???" is sort of silly as well in that a FSE can have these very minimal basic powers we are given and use them without some sort of proper training.  No one is going to be pulling clone wars antics with what we have....as I see it, the pips just aren't there for that to happen. 

 

Just to clarify:  I'm not saying either that a FSE fresh out of the box with a couple points in move should now feel like he can go out and start hurling things around or force pushing badguys.  I would agree that picking up force talents aren't exactly like going and buying a new blaster that you can just take right out and shoot....

 

I think any person that decides to go FSE, at ANY point needs to have an honest discussion with the GM to bring that about in a narrative way.  (which someone already pretty much more eloquently than I, have said above)

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I wish my PC's would choose FS at character creation or anytime really. I've been lurking on the boards for a while and can see that there is quite a bit of worry when it comes to these characters and I'm not sure I understand why. I'm telling you, looking at the rules and talking to other friends playing the class outside of my game, these are fun characters.

However, I would require some sort of back story, if a PC wanted to take FS. As a GM, and because this is a "Yes and," system as opposed to a d20 "No, but," system, I would do what I could to HELP the player come up with a good story.

Thanks Order 66 Podcast, for clueing me into, "Yes, and,".

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Many games i've been in have not allowed FS at chargen, but the GM wanted to know if people thought they'd be interested down the line. He wanted development of Force sensitivity to be a part of the overarching plot. I've also played in a game where I started out as FS, and that was a big chunk of my backstory.

 

I wouldn't allow a player to start their character out as FS without some backstory explanation of discovery.

 

As an aside I'm currently playing an AoR game where the GM has banned anyone from being FS. I don't think this is unfair; the GM wants to tell a particular story about mundane Rebel agents and as far as I'm concerned it's his prerogative to say "no Force users" and the players' prerogative to decide not to play if they don't like the GM's game pitch or his character option restrictions.

 

 

 

Just wanted to ask some more experienced GM's out there thier thoughts on this subject. My "rules attorney" in my group has expressed that there are no rules that govern that a person can't purchase the force talent tree as long as they pay the proper amount of XP to get it.

 

Myself I don't feel that a PC should be allowed to this after character creation. I think that if you create a FSE then you can get the talent trees, but since the "rules attorney" says there are no rules that say such and there doesn't seem to be as we looked. I had to allow it, but I feel that you cannot just train in the force if you are not a force user. This particular is OP'd as hell without the force but wanted to pick up the force talent tree to be even more OP, but hey that is what PC's do.

 

I call BS that you "had to allow it." You're the GM. You get the last say. If you think the player is buying it just to be a twink, you can veto him buying into it. If he doesn't like it, well, tough ****. And yes I could see that majorly detracting from the player who actually made it part of his story for someone to just casually flip the Force switch and have Force powers. IMO discovering Force sensitivity should be allowed after chargen but it should NEVER be a casual discovery, should always be a moderate part of the plot, unless the character starts out Forceful and has that in his backstory. Your rules lawyer may be right per the RAW, but name a game where the GM didn't have the final say about whether a player could find a certain item or enter a certain PrC. 

 

I had the idea of telling the player if you don't drop the force tree I will send 5 emperors hands to kill your PC. What do you all think?

I don't like using IC threats as a basis to justify an OOC ruling like "can I enter this Spec." I'd just say "no, you can't buy into FSExile at this time." If you're feeling more generous, maybe add, "If you want to become a Force user I'll try to work a process for that into the plot but I won't guarantee you can ever take it." If the player throws a fit, seriously meh, sounds like the kind of person who always has to get what they want in a game. 

 

You are not required to allow any player to break either the group power curve or the narrative feel of a game just because he wants to.

Edited by Kshatriya

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By RAW, the "rules lawyer" player is correct, anyone can purchase Force Exile or Force Emergent, so long as the species write-up doesn't specifically say "sorry, you can't be a Force user" much as Droids do.

 

Now the Force Powers all have the requirement of Force Rating 1, which currently can only be obtained by purchasing either the Exile or Emergent specializations.  Starting out with the ability to use any kind of Force Power, particularly multiple ones, is currently a significant investment, as the PC has to allocate at least 20 XP just to get the spec, and then additional XP for the powers, which is XP that's not being spent on raising Characteristics.

 

However, it's the GM's decision if those Force-sensitive specializations are even allowed in the game in the first place.  I know there was a section in the EotE Beta about the player checking with their GM for approval before buying Force Exile, as the GM's planned campaign/adventures may not have room to accommodate Force users in the first place.  It's much the same with any of the material in Enter the Unknown, Suns of Fortune, Dangerous Covenants, or even Age of Rebellion; the GM has to decide what they will and will not permit to be used in their games.

 

So for the original poster, if you don't want to have Force users of any time in your game at the current time, then you can simply tell the player that you're not allowing anything to do with the Force at the current time, but that you might be willing to revisit the idea at a later time (the 'revisit' part is optional, but I find it's better to not shut out player ideas for their character entirely unless said idea is patently ludicrous).

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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I sent my players to a newly "discovered" planet last night. There the players discovered an ancient Jedi temple/pyramid, mostly submerged now, due to ecological catastrophe.

I took a notecard and wrote on it, "You begin hearing voices telling you to come closer. Happy Game Day, you're FS and didn't even know it." Then I slid it over to the player without anyone noticing.

Thought I might get some pushback, in which case I would have taken the card back and been sad. Instead I seemed to energize our game. It was a fun night and worked out.

Now, let's see what can of worms I just opened.

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On the WEG comparison, even that doesn't hold as in WEG SW you could pay CP to switch your no to a less later. I believe it was 20 CP.

 

The FFG system is designed to give options. If you know you want to play a Force USING character at CGen, you can buy FExile and/or FEmergent at the gate and invest XP right away into talent and powers. As Morningfire pointed out, that can crimp into your starting characteristics, but there is also something nice about having quick access to Sense.

 

The system also lets you pick it up later. You don't have to plan for it, so story events can let it be a reveal or a decision down the road. There is no 'dark side meter' or 'Force point stash' a character has that makes whether the character is Force Sensitive or not relevant from a system point of view like there was in other systems. 

 

But the system's flexibility is also meant to be moderated for the greater enjoyment of the group and the story. That means if the game is not a Force using game, then a GM should be upfront about that and clearly mention it and either prohibit or limit what and how fast the players can spend XP into Force abilities. 

 

It's true for the other aspects of the game as well. 'By the rules' players can spend their Xp on skills, trees and talents with no real oversight as long as the Obligation meter is under 100. So when the group sees you bringing in your X-wing minis to the game, which is a sure fire clue there is going to be some space action that night, and that changes one of their XP purchases to picking up another rank in Gunnery, they 'technically' can. Or if a player wants to go Assassin/Doctor/Diplomat/Infiltrator for all the dodge and do their five finger death touch, they can as well. 

 

And that's because its not the game's job to say yes or no to such things. The game wants to allow for many options and there could be several instances where a character who had no interest in the Force or the Jedi has an amazing encounter with an Anzati assassin and decides to follow in their path and that leads to a little exposure to the force. Does that mean they'll find a lightsaber under their pillow or that they now have clear in character justification to pick up 3+ Force talent trees to really get access to a high Force rating? No, not necessarily. Maybe the character just has a weak attunement to the Force and so the PC and GM agree that a 1-2 Force rating range makes sense and a limit power access because not all powers would fall under the purview.

 

Or maybe the player is a Gand and grows into become a Findsman. Or some thief steals some dark side infused shard that merges with them and now they have voices in their head. And if things never change in that way, that's also completely fine. But I wouldn't seek to create some system rule to limit which is really a story issue.

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First off, I think people are way too chapped about Force users (here and elsewhere). It's kind of ridiculous. Force users aren't game breaking super heroes, so there is no reason to create a whole bunch of BS barriers to block them. Saying you can't become Force sensitive is blocking. Saying you need a teacher is blocking. Why can some farm world bumpkin who's never seen a spaceship be able to jump into the pilot's seat and start flying, yet a Force user can't learn something because there is no teacher. That's not what this game is about, and attempts to block like this as petty and immature.

Now you can, as the GM, set the scope for the game amd request that players not deviate heavily from that. For example, I'm prepping a ground based AoR game, where the party is a team of rebels trying to take back control of a planet. If a player wanted to play a fighter pilot, I would tell him or her that it's outside of the scope of the game and that it's not something I'd be able to work in properly (rather than just outright saying no, you can't play a fighter pilot). If you really can't bring the Force into your game, tell the players that it's outside of the scope, rather than telling them that they can't do it. It's going to go over a lot better that way.

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A lot of TLDR here so I'll be brief.

 

It would be unwise to start the game with only the FSE Tree as it comes with no Career or Specialization Skills.

 

If a PC wanted to use 20 of their starting XP to purchase the FSE I'd be ok with it, but again, not wise, as it limits the PCs ability to increase their Characteristics.

 

Finally, you are the GM.  You adjudicate the rules.  If you don't want FSEs in your game, then don't let them.  Your "rules attorney" should also be aware that the GM has the final say. Period.

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