Cards Face-Up or Face-Down in Archives?

[Tangent 0]

1)  What determines whether a card enters Archives face-up or face-down?  

 

2)  After accessing Archives, do all of the cards accessed return to the Archives face-up?

 

3)  Can the Corp look at all of the cards in Archives, regardless of their facing, at any time?  Can the Runner always look at all of the face-up cards?

[Toqtamish 3,643]

1) they enter the same as when they left play.

2) yes

3) yes and yes.

Rules page 6 and 18

[Tangent 0]

1) they enter the same as when they left play.

 

Does "exposing" a card change this in any way?  Let's say I access the top card of R&D, looking at it.  Normally, I would return it to the top of the deck without revealing it to the Corp player.  Instead, I decide to trash it, paying its trash cost.  Technically, I guess it's leaving play face-down right?  I guess what I'm getting at is... does accessing or exposing a card change its facing for determining how it enters the Archives?

[Toqtamish 3,643]

No. As exposing does not change it's facing merely lets you see it.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

If the card was being accessed, it goes face-up. If it was exposed (such as through Infiltration) but remains unrezzed, it will still be trashed facedown if the Corp installs over it.

Edit: 'Expose' means something specific in Netrunner.

Edited March 23, 2014 by CommissarFeesh

[Khouri 96]

Generally if the Corp trashes the card it goes to archives face-down.

 

If the Runner trashes the card it goes to archives face-up.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

That's going to change when Singularity hits in Double Time. It's also not true if the Corp trashed a rezzed card. I never liked that generalisation.

[ProfMoriarty 11]

The rule that works in my head - 

 

1) Ignore expose for the moment.

 

2) If the runner saw the card (either because of an access, or because the corp played a transaction, scored an agenda, rezzed something) it goes in face up.

 

3) If the runner didn't see the card (the corp discards something from HQ, trashes something from R&D, trashes an unrezzed card from a server to replace it with something else), it goes in face down.

 

4) Expose: changes nothing, except the runner got to peek at it at some point.

 

The only janky one to me at present is Subliminal Messaging.  There is, apparently, an email somewhere from Lukas to someone stating that if Subliminal Messaging ended up in Archives facedown for some reason, the corp is supposed to show it to the runner if they return it to their hand as a result of the runner not running on the previous turn.  For the current cardpool, this is meaningless as it is the only card that would go back in hand, ever, based on what the runner didn't do, but if more cards come out with such triggers I'm hoping things swing the other way.

 

The theory of all of this is, if the runner didn't access it and the corp didn't play it or activate it, the runner doesn't get to know what it is.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Another spanner in that is Keyhole - technically you didn't access the card, but it still gets trashed face-up. I think the most correct rule currently (although horribly worded) is that if the runner is legally allowed, through game-state or card effect, to see the face of the card when it is trashed, it goes face-up. Otherwise face down.

There's probably an edge-case card I've missed that breaks that rule too

[etherial 62]

The only janky one to me at present is Subliminal Messaging.  There is, apparently, an email somewhere from Lukas to someone stating that if Subliminal Messaging ended up in Archives facedown for some reason, the corp is supposed to show it to the runner if they return it to their hand as a result of the runner not running on the previous turn.  For the current cardpool, this is meaningless as it is the only card that would go back in hand, ever, based on what the runner didn't do, but if more cards come out with such triggers I'm hoping things swing the other way.

 

The theory of all of this is, if the runner didn't access it and the corp didn't play it or activate it, the runner doesn't get to know what it is.

I have seen several of Lukas' rulings on Subliminal Messaging, and I haven't seen one that refers to showing the Runner the card.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

The only janky one to me at present is Subliminal Messaging.  There is, apparently, an email somewhere from Lukas to someone stating that if Subliminal Messaging ended up in Archives facedown for some reason, the corp is supposed to show it to the runner if they return it to their hand as a result of the runner not running on the previous turn.  For the current cardpool, this is meaningless as it is the only card that would go back in hand, ever, based on what the runner didn't do, but if more cards come out with such triggers I'm hoping things swing the other way.

 

The theory of all of this is, if the runner didn't access it and the corp didn't play it or activate it, the runner doesn't get to know what it is.

I have seen several of Lukas' rulings on Subliminal Messaging, and I haven't seen one that refers to showing the Runner the card.

I remember seeing it. Was along the lines of you should show the rule that allows you to retrieve the card. I'll see if I can dig up a link tomorrow.

[Tangent 0]

Sorry for my absence, but thanks for all of the replies, everyone!

[ProfMoriarty 11]

To be fair to Keyhole - it says "look at", which is, yay, another verb distinct from "access" and "expose"

[Grimwalker 647]

To be fair to Keyhole - it says "look at", which is, yay, another verb distinct from "access" and "expose"

 

I find that the granularity of language used is quite deliberate. It explicitly protects you from cards like Snare and Shock which requires access, or the upcoming Psychic Field, which specifies accessed or exposed.

 

Likewise, there is a granularity to the definition of Rez Cost versus Additional Cost. It allows a card like Running Interference to function smoothly in concert with Rook and Xanadu so that there's no confusion about order of operations.

[ProfMoriarty 11]

The new FAQ addresses some of this, although it does so in ways I find not always intuitive, and in fact downright disagree with.

[Khouri 96]

The new FAQ addresses some of this, although it does so in ways I find not always intuitive, and in fact downright disagree with.

Such as?

[ProfMoriarty 11]

 

The new FAQ addresses some of this, although it does so in ways I find not always intuitive, and in fact downright disagree with.

Such as?

 

My opinions aren't going to change the game, and I am fine with that

To alleviate curiosity - I don't think it should be necessary to reveal Subliminal Messaging - while it is irrelevant today since it's the only card that can go back to HQ from Archives in the way that it does, it does tamp down novelty of future such cards and eliminates any shell games that might be achievable by the combination of such cards.  

The wording of the "status of face up vs. face down" took me a few parses, but that's more of a readability thing.  I was, at first blush, about to post a question of "so what good is Project Atlas now if, since the card I'm pulling from R&D is inactive and I'm required to show the runner all inactive cards chosen by card effects, I now have to show it to the runner, even while maintaining its face down state, at which point, why is it still 'facedown' if the runner now knows what it is" - but, I suppose, "reveal" is a very special keyword that trumps showing runners inactive cards as per the subsequent paragraph that says you only reveal a card if required to do (by the card, I assume).  Or perhaps the paid ability of Project Atlas is not a "card effect", in which case the paragraph doesn't apply at all.

 

Bah.  I can't even write a clear paragraph myself.

[Khouri 96]

I hadn't thought of that with Atlas. I'm guessing that you have to show them the actual card that has been selected, but unless the effect itself demands it be revealed what it is can remain hidden. Atlas forces the reveal, so that is quite clear but I think if Aggressive Negotiation were to be used instead the card searched for would have to be shown to the opponent (but crucially, not revealed as to what it is) demonstrating clearly that a card has indeed been found.

 

All that said, it is predicated on there being an actual difference between the rule mechanics for the words "show" and "reveal".

 

I agree that forcing to reveal that you are pulling the subliminal messaging back in does seem a bit restrictive, but unless there are going to be more cards that do that sort of thing it is probably best to have it clear what the Corp is doing when they take a random card out of their Archives and put it back in their hand. Even if there were more such cards though, it might still be better to have the opponent see the card that is causing the effect to take place.

 

i.e. since it is subliminal messaging that causes the effect it has to be shown to the opponent so that they can see what is going on. Off the top of my head I cannot think of another game effect that could be hidden from the runner during resolution.

[Grimwalker 647]

I could see this going either way. Retrieving a facedown card without revealing it could open the door to cheating, but then again so could you also install two Regions in a server or a sideways asset to bluff the presence of ice if you were inclined to cheat just because the runner couldn't see.

That said, expose and forced-rez effects can catch that kind of cheating, and there's no real way for the runner to know what card was retrieved once it's shuffled into HQ, so the risk is much lower. So I can accept it.