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TheOrk

Dual-wield auto-fire???

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Is there anything to stop a character from dual-wielding auto-fire weapons?

 

He may not even hit a brick wall with it, since he would have a difficulty of 1 at short range, +1 for dual-wield, +1 for auto-fire (+1 for auto-fire the second weapon?), + what-ever cumbersome points he cannot compensate for.

 

However, it would look very intimidating and knowing as a GM that he can't hit **** isn't the same as a NPC getting shot at all-guns-blazing. First reaction - apart from the coolest NPC badasses out there - would be to get your head down and get out of there?

 

Thinking along those lines, isn't auto-fire better than dual-wielding? It's basically the same in game-terms: add one difficulty, spend 2 advantages to hit a second time. Just that auto-fire can hit a third and fourth time on a good roll, too? And: in game-terms, how could/would those stack?

 

There must be some kind of advantage in the Star Wars Universe, otherwise, combat droids like the droideka wouldn't have two twin-blasters? (and by the way, how are the stats for those? are they treated as one repeating blaster? heavy repeating blaster?) How are all those twin- and quad-guns handled?

 

Oh my... first post and a trillion questions. I'm sorry.

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It doesn't make sense "math-wise", since you can get all the same effects from a single auto-fire wepon with (at least) on difficulty dice less, but you could do it for the cool, the rules do not forbid it? o.k.

 

Any idea how to all those dual- and quad-weapons are handled? Didn't find anything, not even in the ship section of the core book.

 

EDIT: Just been scanning this thread:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/95319-destroyer-droid-pc/

 

 

If the player wants an autofire weapon, a heavy blaster rifle CAN represent both weapon arms of a droideka.

Guess I am not the first one having this idea to represent the multi-weapons by one bigger one.

 

Any reasons not to? Suggestions for what is equivalent to which one?

Edited by TheOrk

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There are currently only two weapons with the auto-fire feature that are capable of being dual-wielded.  One is the IR-5 pistol in DC (Dangerous Covenants), and the other is the ASP-9 slugthrower pistol in SoF (Suns of Fortune).  I'm not sure if there are attachments that grant Auto-Fire, I suppose that would be the only other way to make it go.

 

The IR-5 also has Inaccurate 1, so add that to the challenge of hitting that barn.

 

I think you are on the right track with the intimidation factor, but is that diminished by the fact that the weapons are sidearms?  Your call.

 

I have a dual wielder in my group, and so far he finds it difficult to get the roll results he wants, ie. the second hit.  I can't imagine his frustrations at trying to activate a second hit AND auto-fire.

 

The difference between auto-fire and dual-wield is somatic.  They are basically the same mechanic, but they evoke two very different images, and functions.  I would be more concerned with the why of it all.  Why would my character choose to dual wield, versus carrying an automatic weapon?  A cool as a cucumber outlaw smuggler type would be more inclined to carry two weapons, over a tough as nails former frontline merc with a heavy repeater.  In this game, it's all about the story and the characters, and far less about the meta...

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In this game, it's all about the story and the characters, and far less about the meta...

For some.

For others? Not so much.

 

(speaking from first-hand experience)

 

Sadly true, as I sat in on a game where one of the players was running a super-twinked out combat droid with an equally twinked-out heavy blaster rifle that only cared about how badass his character was in a fight.

 

As for the original question, you could dual-wield two auto-fire pistols, but the increased difficulty (+1 from auto-fire itself, +1 from dual-wielding) puts the tactic out of the realm of most PCs, and would be something that only a very skilled shooter (having 3 ranks in Ranged [Light] and Agility 3 at the very least) would be able to pull off with any hope of actually getting anything constructive out of it

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Gand dual wields blaster pistols for a couple of reasons.  The biggest being that it is his shtick.  As for getting the second shot to land, that started coming in fairly regularly when I got to Agility 4, Rank 3.

 

As for how to run dual wielding auto fire weapons for droids...

 

We ran into a Sil 2 droid with two HRBs.  How our GM ran them was with the linked Quality.  That thing was nasty.

 

As for a PC going all Rambo with that, mechanically it isn't worth it, but with the help of the GM and collaborative story telling you could have fun with it.

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Any idea how to all those dual- and quad-weapons are handled? Didn't find anything, not even in the ship section of the core book.

Look up the Linked quality page 156 EotE CB.

 

Ah, missed that one. Linked is "like auto-fire" with a limited number of additional hits, for the same cost in positive counters, but without the negative die?

 

Guess mechanics-wise it does not matter at all, if it's on weapon on auto-fire, several linked / dual wielded weapons. Dual wield is more "cowboy style", but limited to two hits and one target, but otherwise, they all come out more or less the same in the end. Guess as long as we handle it along those lines, we won't go wrong.

 

I guess Stunts like dual wielding blaser rifles for the show of it can be told in the story, I don't want to buy a third dice set just to handle this and spend al evening counting ;)

Edited by TheOrk

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A comment more than a question.

 

Following the logic that the shooter is not trying to actually hit a target, they are more or less simply providing suppression fire.  The roll wouldn't reflect any actual attempt to hit anything, instead it would be a means of determining if someone or something was 'accidentally' hit by the fire.

 

More or less like light machine-guns are used on many modern battlefields.  Many times machine-gunners do not have a specific target, they just know that the enemy is somewhere 'over there' and taking pot-shots. As long as 'we' keep a steady stream of fire down range, 'they' will be less apt to pop up to take a shot.

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Guess mechanics-wise it does not matter at all, if it's on weapon on auto-fire, several linked / dual wielded weapons. Dual wield is more "cowboy style", but limited to two hits and one target, but otherwise, they all come out more or less the same in the end. Guess as long as we handle it along those lines, we won't go wrong.

 

I think the rules are loose enough that you can dual wield and shoot two targets. They don't specifically state you can't, just that you need to roll for the hardest shot and you need to declare which shot is the hard one. IE, the first shot to hit. At least, that's how we've been doing it.

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Guess mechanics-wise it does not matter at all, if it's on weapon on auto-fire, several linked / dual wielded weapons. Dual wield is more "cowboy style", but limited to two hits and one target, but otherwise, they all come out more or less the same in the end. Guess as long as we handle it along those lines, we won't go wrong.

 

I think the rules are loose enough that you can dual wield and shoot two targets. They don't specifically state you can't, just that you need to roll for the hardest shot and you need to declare which shot is the hard one. IE, the first shot to hit. At least, that's how we've been doing it.

 

I disagree, the word "target" is used throughout the description of 2 weapons attacks, not targets.

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To rule on this one, I refer back to my trust House Rules document wherein I long ago ruled on Jury Rigger and Auto-fire; when adjusting the Advantage cost of weapon qualities that can be activated more than once, the reduced cost only applies to the first activation of said quality. This is because the idea of each Advantage scored on a combat check representing an additional hit from an Auto-fire weapon is frankly abhorent to me.

Sadly, the RAW disagrees with me on the above, but that's where dual-wielding Auto-fire pistols comes in!

Simply stack the penalties for two weapon combat and Auto-fire and reduce the cost for additional hits to one Advantage. The farthest range you can get out of any Auto-fire pistol is Medium, so you're looking at a PPP or PPPP base Difficulty for combat checks (Sniper Shot notwithstanding). Apply stuff like Adversary, armor/cover, and the possibility of a Dark Side Point, and suddenly dual-wielding pistols becomes inaccurate and low-damage enough to be little more than a nuisance to anything with Soak 5+ (like a Stormtrooper).

Edited by JonahHex

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Guess mechanics-wise it does not matter at all, if it's on weapon on auto-fire, several linked / dual wielded weapons. Dual wield is more "cowboy style", but limited to two hits and one target, but otherwise, they all come out more or less the same in the end. Guess as long as we handle it along those lines, we won't go wrong.

 

I think the rules are loose enough that you can dual wield and shoot two targets. They don't specifically state you can't, just that you need to roll for the hardest shot and you need to declare which shot is the hard one. IE, the first shot to hit. At least, that's how we've been doing it.

 

I disagree, the word "target" is used throughout the description of 2 weapons attacks, not targets.

 

Re-read the rules. You can target two different targets, you just need to make the check against the harder of the two targets to hit. In other words, if you wanted to shoot Stormtrooper A at Medium range and a Stormtrooper B at short range, you'd make the check against Stormtrooper A and hit Stormtrooper B only if you succeed on the check with 2 Advantage.

It should also be noted that, unlike Auto-fire, two-weapon combat REQUIRES that you hit with each attack before activating weapon qualities or critical injuries. In other words, while aiming with two weapons you can't suddenly decide to miss with your second weapon because you think you want to hit more accuately with the first. :P

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Feel free to post where that is in the CRB because I read none of that in the section detailing two weapon combat.

 Page 211, under the "Two Weapon Combat" header, 5th paragaph (the only one with a purple die in it);

"He then compares the difficulty of the two combat checks he would make and selects the check with the higher basic difficulty. He then increases the difficulty by one if the two skills in the combined check were the same, and by two if they were different. He then makes the check."

It's not explicitly stated here that you can select multiple targets, I'll grant that much, but it's heavily implied. It's one of the primary reasons to use two different skills in the same check for one thing (in order to shoot one guy and punch another guy, for instance), and for another there are very few reasons why two checks against the same target would have different difficulties. Most of the time, different attacks would have different difficulties because the targets are at different ranges.

Plus, using two hands means you can aim in two different places; just like we don't need the rulebook to tell us that Rontos can't climb trees despite their Brawn and Athletics, we don't need the rulebook to tell us that two weapon combat can be useful against multiple targets.

As for the other thing, agan page 211, this time the 6th (and final) paragraph;

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend two Advantages or one Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantages Triumphs to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage, +1 damage per uncanceled Success."

In this case, the rules are quite explicit; the secondary weapon needs to hit before you can do anything else. Again I'll grant that critical injuries aren't called out specifically, but again I'll argue that it's heavily implied.

Edited by JonahHex

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The two checks is referring to whether or not the player is using two different kinds of weapons or skills in the check.  You're not making two combat checks, you're comparing them  "compares the difficulty of the two checks", you're determining which check has the higher difficulty of the two and using that one for the two weapon combat check "...selects the check with the higher basic difficulty" the advantages from the single check then determining whether or not the attack is successful.

 

The rule is also pretty clear when it says  "....he determines his target", singular.  

 

Two weapon combat gets confusing if you use 2 kinds of weapons that use different skills.  The easiest way to look at it is, use the worse chance for success.

 

If you are using two different kinds of weapons, a sword and pistol.  You first select the one with the worse dice pool which sets the dice pool.  You then compare the difficulties with each weapon against the target, and the one that has the higher difficulty sets the difficulty for the attack.  Much easier to use a matching set of weapons for determining the roll.

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Hence why I said these things are heavily implied, not explicitly stated. The rules denote a single target (as opposed to multiple targets) because for all intents and purposes you're making one combat check against one target, with the other targets being an added effect of the initial attack. Again, Rontos can't cimb trees, and having two hands means you can aim in two directions simultaniously.

For me, though, the bottom line comes with how multiple targets are handled for Auto-fire attacks. When in doubt in ANY tabletop game, look up the next closest rule and go from there. :)

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There isn't a hard rule for it, but I could see granting boost dice to coercion for the intimidation factor of using of firing all around someone with auto-fire weapons.

 

how is not hitting anything going to intimidate anyone?

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There isn't a hard rule for it, but I could see granting boost dice to coercion for the intimidation factor of using of firing all around someone with auto-fire weapons.

 

how is not hitting anything going to intimidate anyone?

 

Oh trust me, automatic fire hitting your immediate area will rattle you, especially when its heavy caliber stuff. Even the light caliber stuff isn't fun since it only takes one round to ruin your day and 6 or more just hit around you in the space of just over a second.

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Watch the 80s TV version of the A-Team. They fire hundreds of rounds without hitting anyone (most of the time) but they have an awesome effect at Coercion. I'd say that many Star Wars games might run close to the A-Team in terms of camp, so don't be embarrassed to use it as a source, especially for a Hired Gun campaign.

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