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ThenDoctor

Tome of Decay annoucned!

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The preceding post doesn't really answer my question... 

It should. It's the only thing that counts. If GW says it is, then it is. 'Fraid there's no wiggle room there.

BYE

A guess that GW interfered isn't much to go on, and doesn't really answer anything.

Unless you can confirm that GW in fact did interfere directly to enforce an exceedingly small part of new canon, which I would find strange, even by GW's standard.

 

 

Yeah GW made it preety clear in his supplement,that all deamon princes had to be aligned ever since the gods exsperimented with Be'likor and realized that unaligned princes where a mistake.

"His supplement"? What are you on about?

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Yeah GW made it preety clear in his supplement,that all deamon princes had to be aligned ever since the gods exsperimented with Be'likor and realized that unaligned princes where a mistake.

"His supplement"? What are you on about?

 

He's referring to Be'lakor's dataslate where it is stated, and I quote,

"However, [the chaos gods] soon realised the folly of combining their might into a single vessel, as Be'lakor was nearly uncontrollable.  They soon began to raise up new Daemon Princes, each god choosing only champions that would be loyal to them, and them alone."

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There were unaligned demon princes in the past, there will probably be unaligned demon princes in the future the next time GW rejiggers the fluff.  

 

I'd just like to point out inasmuch as they are both demons, the demon primarchs (Lorgar et al) are very much like other demon princes.  They are not exceptions in this regard in any meaningful way.  

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I'd just like to point out inasmuch as they are both demons, the demon primarchs (Lorgar et al) are very much like other demon princes.  They are not exceptions in this regard in any meaningful way.  

 

A nurgling is a Daemon, but no one would say that it's all that similar to a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster. Or even a Great Unclean One. "Daemon" is a pretty broad category.

 

On an unrelated note, does anyone have questions about the rules for running Black Crusades? I don't feel especially comfortable speaking on behalf of the other writers of the project, but I'd be happy to help with my own section if there's any confusion or concerns.

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They're super-detailed, and I like them. I think this'd be a fun way to run any sort of campaign. It needn't even be a "Black Crusade", and could be turned around just as easily for Only War.

BYE

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Yeah GW made it preety clear in his supplement,that all deamon princes had to be aligned ever since the gods exsperimented with Be'likor and realized that unaligned princes where a mistake.

"His supplement"? What are you on about?
He's referring to Be'lakor's dataslate where it is stated, and I quote,

"However, [the chaos gods] soon realised the folly of combining their might into a single vessel, as Be'lakor was nearly uncontrollable. They soon began to raise up new Daemon Princes, each god choosing only champions that would be loyal to them, and them alone."

Ah, ok. So nothing specifically disallowing Unaligned Daemon Princes, then. Which just reaffirms the oddity that it's an issue in Tome of Decay now, when it wasn't mentioned earlier in Black Crusade (AFAIK).

I'd just like to point out inasmuch as they are both demons, the demon primarchs (Lorgar et al) are very much like other demon princes.  They are not exceptions in this regard in any meaningful way.

 

A nurgling is a Daemon, but no one would say that it's all that similar to a Lord of Change or a Bloodthirster. Or even a Great Unclean One. "Daemon" is a pretty broad category.

 

On an unrelated note, does anyone have questions about the rules for running Black Crusades? I don't feel especially comfortable speaking on behalf of the other writers of the project, but I'd be happy to help with my own section if there's any confusion or concerns.

I wish. I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, so I can't even start to think of questions. :D

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Curse the slow transport across the seas. I want that book so badly and it's not even released here yet. Oh well, nice to have this thread to get some thoughts while I wait.

 

A question though, would you need to do much to houserule unaligned Daemon Princes? 3/4 people in my group are unaligned and I think at least one of them plans to stay that way. He might be doing it for reasons that become obsolete once he hits ascension, but it would be nice to know the option is there.

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Curse the slow transport across the seas. I want that book so badly and it's not even released here yet. Oh well, nice to have this thread to get some thoughts while I wait.

 

A question though, would you need to do much to houserule unaligned Daemon Princes? 3/4 people in my group are unaligned and I think at least one of them plans to stay that way. He might be doing it for reasons that become obsolete once he hits ascension, but it would be nice to know the option is there.

The problem is figuring out how the Unaligned gains favor. Guidelines are given for each of the Powers, and most conflict with one another. To gain any favor, you'll have to step away from being Unaligned sooner rather than later (and per the rules, before you actually become a DP).

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Happydaze: Not strictly true. Objectives like "corrupting an entire space marine chapter", "sacking a sector capital", "launching a Black Crusade", etc. are all essentially neutral mechanisms for gaining Favor by the rules as is Favor gained from successful Compacts- only things like attaining victories against the armies of a "rival god" etc. are inapplicable as are actions thematically specific to a particular Deity. By the same token, however, a hypothetical Undivided Daemon Prince wouldn't be losing Favor for behaving in ways that would conflict with the nature of their specific deity. This might be a decent balancing mechanism- you aren't beholden to one power and lose Favor less readily (mostly when you feel the need to burn Infamy to avoid banishment) but at the same time have fewer means of gaining Favor, can only pick from the Unaligned Gifts, and don't gain the perk and +10 attribute boost associated with having a particular God. Honestly beyond removing the "need to be aligned to a God" requirement for Ascension it doesn't seem like it requires much houseruling at all. If you're concerned about it being too difficult for Undivided Princes to lose Favor you could just halve their rate of Favor gain (reflecting that there is no one power that is particularly invested or attentive to them, relative to aligned Princes)- their growth may be slower but their power is in the end more secure.

Edited by Andkat

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Don't really see all this fuss about unaligned Daemon Princes, there are no "Powerful" unaligned daemonic forces in the Warp that don't have a vested interest by all the Gods (I can only think of the Soul Forge, which is being constantly eyed by all the gods and under a truce). Be'lakor is the one and only unaligned Daemon Prince, that's what makes him special and it's official fluff so there's no going against it really.

Now on to Tome of Decay, namely Black Crusades. My question being, what's the point? Daemon Princes can gain favour for doing so, but regular heretics don't seem to get any infamy/corruption/experience for launching a Black Crusade, just losing infamy to recruit extra Crusade Forces. Honestly Black Crusades feel like a tax on resources for no gain..... Am I missing something aside from the obvious fluff reasoning?

Oh, and how do Daemon Engines determine their Agility scores? Not their form of transportation, I mean their actual agility bonus, pg. 50 of Tome of Decay states that a Daemon Engine gains a movement trait based on its shell, and that the bound Daemon determines its Weapon Skill/Ballistic Skill, Fellowship, Willpower, Intelligence, and Infamy but not Agility so...... ?

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As Black Crusades works as Compacts they surely give exp/ infamy also corruption. for regular heretics. I guess it is not mentioned as the writer focused on the new stuffs.....

 

Also there are the obvious gains planets, slaves, new warriors, technology, ships...... 

Edited by Athanatosz

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Now on to Tome of Decay, namely Black Crusades. My question being, what's the point? Daemon Princes can gain favour for doing so, but regular heretics don't seem to get any infamy/corruption/experience for launching a Black Crusade, just losing infamy to recruit extra Crusade Forces. Honestly Black Crusades feel like a tax on resources for no gain..... Am I missing something aside from the obvious fluff reasoning?

Well, aside from the assumption that launching a Black Crusade is a way to provide a capstone for a campaign as it reaches its end (by no means mandatory, admittedly), the reasoning goes like this:

 

A Black Crusade is not a means to an end. It is a goal. It is the end towards which many Heretics work, and all their previous adventures are a means of accomplishing it. Therefore, providing a reward structure for it would undermine the emphasis of simply being able to achieve such a mighty deed being a reward in and of itself.

 

I'll admit, if you're planning on continuing play after completing a Black Crusade, you'll have to fudge together how the spoils of war work. I probably could have put something together if I'd had more wordcount available, but alas, I did not. If you want a quick and dirty solution, then the Plunder Points you get from Corrupted Territories are a good hook to work from to allow the GM an idea of how much you gained. I'd also probably allow the PCs to regain some or all of the Infamy they burned gathering Crusade Forces at the start, in addition to retaining any remaining Crusade Forces for their next effort.

 

 

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Alright, that makes sense. That still leaves the question of Daemon Engine Agility scores unanswered though, oh and also I have to ask, how does a Daemon Engine gain more Aligned traits. There are references to it (Such as the Third Eye/Crystal Spire trait) but no way to increase the number of traits past the 3 it starts with.

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Alright, that makes sense. That still leaves the question of Daemon Engine Agility scores unanswered though, oh and also I have to ask, how does a Daemon Engine gain more Aligned traits. There are references to it (Such as the Third Eye/Crystal Spire trait) but no way to increase the number of traits past the 3 it starts with.

 

I'll answer the second question first. It's a matter of wording really. You might roll Third Eye first, and then Silver Tower. There's no mechanic for acquiring more Traits down the line. As to the Agility thing, and please keep in mind that I cannot give official answers, that looks like an omission and the agility of the Daemon inhabiting the Shell should be used.

BYE

Edited by H.B.M.C.

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They're super-detailed, and I like them. I think this'd be a fun way to run any sort of campaign. It needn't even be a "Black Crusade", and could be turned around just as easily for Only War.

BYE

Leading an Inquisitorial fleet into the Screaming Vortex would be too much fun. 

I've always believed that the best sourcebooks provide an entirely new game for it's core game- Night's Watch (for Green Ronin's ASIOF) and Radical's Handbook are amongst my favorites. Since they share roughly the same system, The Tome of Decay seems like it will put the heresy in the new edition of Dark Heresy. 

Edited by Kainus

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Forces opposing the black crusade cannot relocate themselves to defend important regions, interdict fleets or form a defence line, they just get d10 reinforcements all across the theatre unless everything is contested?

How can opposing forces eliminate cults or cabals or leutenants?

Is there a way to commit exterminatus to cleanse the region at the cost of plunder it could provide?

Can your enemies do the scourged earth tactics same way?

Edited by Chaplain

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Forces opposing the black crusade cannot relocate themselves to defend important regions, interdict fleets or form a defence line, they just get d10 reinforcements all across the theatre unless everything is contested?

How can opposing forces eliminate cults or cabals or leutenants?

Is there a way to commit exterminatus to cleanse the region at the cost of plunder it could provide?

Can your enemies do the scourged earth tactics same way?

Answering the questions one at a time:

 

First question: The relocation of enemy forces is exactly what reinforcements represent. That's why the Crusade's enemies get penalties to generate reinforcements when nearby worlds are Corrupted or Contested. There's no way under RAW for the Imperium to try and concentrate reinforcements at particularly critical locations--I'll admit to that oversight, and it's a good point to bring up. It could be explained by the desperate chaos involved in fending off such a huge assault, but if you wanted to house rule in something to cover it, I'd recommend attaching a modifier to Reinforcement rolls for specific territories. Say, a territory representing a crucial Fortress World might get +1 or +2 to all Reinforcement rolls. It would make it particularly difficult to permanently subdue such a world, however, and so I would use this kind of rule sparingly. A Key Event might be a better way to reflect such focused reinforcements, or a modification to one of the random Map Events, if you are using them.

 

Second question: In direct conflict, cults and cabals are too insidious to battle, and enemy grunts are not going to take down anyone worthy of being a Lieutenant. Loss of these forces should be the consequence of failing or ignoring a Key Event.

 

Third question: Both situations would be best to handle with a specially tailored Key Event. I know it's not ideal to keep recommending this, but there's two reasons I do so. One is that if the rules tried to cover every possible variation on the Black Crusade scenario, they'd be twice as long, and there'd still be edge cases that were missed. The second is that important scenarios like Exterminatus or some Chaos equivalent (creation of a Daemon World, perhaps?) are such crucial tipping points in the balance of power and the game's narrative that abstracting them away feels like a bit of a cop-out. That should totally be something the Heretics are front and center for.

 

Final note: If an errata or official FAQ comes out and contradicts me, bear in mind that these are not official answers, just my take on the material.

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OK, just a few suggestions then

-Imperium (or other forces if you are into Jericho Reach or Koronus Expanse) has hosts, fleets and equivalent special units (say, Inquisitors, Temple Assasins, Venerable commanders) who are a match for cults, cabals and leutenants and can deal with them. There is no limit to number of enemy troops and fleets in the region, and obviously troop density will be much higher on the frontlines (not the other way around as in RAW where systems untouched by war are soon filled with troops).

-Both your and your enemies' movement can be interdicted if you are flying from or into system with enemy navy presence (opposed naval str tests can do that). Void superiority can bind your enemies to their planets and turns any movements to suicide.

-Imperium generates reinforcements the same way as heretics - by controlling territory, gathering armies, building ships and tanks. That is precicely the reason why heretics, having a lot of troops at the start, need to quickly conquer some ground to replenish their losses and to stop enemy from fully mobilising for war. No sudden 1d10 imperial troops on the long since conquered planets, though - makes sense, right?

-Exterminatus is a fully viable tactical decision. Obviously, noone can recruit soldiers from dead worlds, so this is a no-coming-back decision, yet if you stumble upon your very own little Cadia, you can just blast it in half and move on instead of taking ridiculously unnecessary casualties. This is, still, a dangerous maneuver - exterminatus fleet needs to sit on low orbits for extended period of time, and in naval battle before performing the act it takes huge penalties. Soon-to-be purged ground forces count as fleets in this test as exterminatus fleet is well within their surface-to-orbit systems operational range.

-No fixed time limit is enforced, yet after certain amount of time enemy reinforcements arrive from beyond the sector representing other sectors and segmentum supreme command answering for desperate pleas of salvation from Black Crusade.

-Probably this would require some changes in army costs if you buy them for infamy, though not sure.

 

This increases Key Event (read - roleplay) opportunities as well, since you can be the one at the helm of a grand cruiser intimidating imperial governor with your cyclonic torpedoes into laying down his arms and ceasing all resistance, you get imperial VIPs on the strategic map with whom you fight, who you try to seduce and who will come to you with a knife when you sleep.

Just a quick ideas, not actual homerules, but I think after a bit of playtesting they can be turned into ones.

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Those all sound cool, but I suspect coming up with actual implementation for them, especially if you want to integrate them into the existing system, might be more trouble than it's worth. The point of the rules for running Black Crusades is to provide a certain level of abstraction so you only really home in on those details you find narratively interesting (which you handle with Key Events) and to provide a backdrop of grand conflict for the key events of a huge war. The more abstraction you peel away, the more unwieldly it gets, until you're better off not using a subsystem at all, and just handling it through a mix of handwaving and regular play. There's always going to be a tradeoff between simplicity and detail. Too much of one is going to kill the other.

 

Of course, if you think you can pull it off, and that your group will go for it, then more power to you. The rules are only tools, not a straitjacket. Use them as you see fit.

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