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Can you trigger Sense's Duration Upgrade twice against the same attack?

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Assuming you have the Duration Upgrade to trigger Sense's ability to upgrade the difficulty to hit you twice in a round, can you use that twice against the same attack, upgrading it by 4?

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Assuming you have the Duration Upgrade to trigger Sense's ability to upgrade the difficulty to hit you twice in a round, can you use that twice against the same attack, upgrading it by 4?

Nope.

 

You generally only get one response to an action.  What you're suggesting would be the same as asking if a PC could spend multiple Incidentals to trigger Dodge or Furious Attack multiple times when they've only got one rank in the talent.  Technically a PC could do this, suffering a lot of Strain in the process, but it's pure cheese and against the spirit/intent of the rules.

 

So for Sense's defensive Control Upgrade, you only get to use it once per attack.  The Duration Upgrade simply means you get to apply it against two attacks per round instead of just the one.  Same holds true for the offensive Control Upgrade, in that you only get to upgrade one attack roll at a time.

 

Rule of thumb: If it sounds like a really cheesy tactic or you've got to exploit a loophole in the rules, then it's not allowed.  For more often than not, said cheesy tactic isn't within the spirit of the rules.

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I'm assuming from your 4 dice upgrade comment you are using the example of someone with both Duration & Strength upgrades. RAW the Duration Upgrade lets you trigger an additional time however as it's a reaction to a single attack I don't believe you can trigger the same reaction twice for one check. I'd compare it to using Dodge twice on a single attack.

 

As I read it with those upgrades you get to upgrade the difficulty of the first 2 combat checks against you in a round by 2, assuming you have both the Duration & Strength upgrades. Text below for reference.

 

 

"Control Upgrade: The Force user gains the ability to sense danger the moment before it strikes, allowing him to anticipate attacks and avoid incoming blows. This power gains the Ongoing effect Commit 1. Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user, he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once.


 

Strength Upgrade: When using Sense's Ongoing effects, upgrade one additional die.

 

Duration Upgrade: Sense's Ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round.

 

Dodge: When targeted by a combat check [ranged or melee) the character may choose to immediately perform a Dodge incidental to suffer a number of strain, then upgrade the difficulty of the combat check by that number. The number of strain suffered cannot exceed his ranks in Dodge."

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I think it is totally the opposite as above: I think you can upgrade 4 times a single attack or a difficulty. 

 

I'm assuming from your 4 dice upgrade comment you are using the example of someone with both Duration & Strength upgrades. RAW the Duration Upgrade lets you trigger an additional time however as it's a reaction to a single attack I don't believe you can trigger the same reaction twice for one check.

 

I'd argue with this: with the duration upgrade you are not getting "another reaction", but your reaction gets better in another dimension. Giving you 4 dice if you will (by using both upgrades) -- I'll be more convincing later ;-)

 

I'd compare it to using Dodge twice on a single attack.

 

In my view: Dodge is a bad analogy. Dodge explicitly states, that you use an action (an incidental) at a certain time (immediately, when an attack targets you). Doing 2 such actions would not meet the requirement, since the first is at that time, but the second is not (it is not immediately when the attack targets you, but it after your first incidental) -- Don't worry I'll be more convincing later ;-)

 

Duration Upgrade: Sense's Ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round.

 

This only means, that change the "once per round" to "twice per round" in Sense's ongoing effects. It doesn't say, you can't use both at the same time.

 

Did I say, that I'll be more convincing later?

Consider these:

- Yes it is imba (= out of balance), but Jedis are imba! And they spent 50xp for this Force power in itself (+ Force rating 2 is needed to be able to fully use it...)

- If it was as you say, then how can you upgrade Attack twice in one round? (You have only one attack and I don't really see any exceptions from this) -- And if you only can use the defensive control power twice, why is the wording as above? (It should have been: "Sense's defensive ongoing effect can be triggered twice")

 

 

 

Either aspect (your view or mine) -- What does it have to do with Duration???

I think the duration power should have been something like. "Sense's ongoing effects can be triggered twice as long as there is a force-die committed" (So if you go in battle meditation for a day and commit a die, then the next day you can trigger the effect and still use that force die, since you don't have any comitted)

Edited by Alex76g

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This seems like a case of trying to rewrite the wording of the rules to fit what you'd like them to be. It's phrased pretty specifically.

 

Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user, he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once. 

To me, this makes it clear that the base effect is to be triggered once per attack against you. Once per round, upgrade one time.

 

Duration Upgrade: Sense's Ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round.

 

Triggered one additional time, meaning on one additional attack, because it's normally only triggered once per round. The upgrade is protecting you twice, i.e. for a longer duration. It doesn't make much sense for a Duration upgrade to work twice at the same time. That would be a Strength or Magnitude upgrade.

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I agree with rogue_09, it's not ambiguous at all.  It's quite clearly written out exactly how you can use it.  You can't say that because the rules don't say you can't do something, that you can do something. 

 

Either aspect (your view or mine) -- What does it have to do with Duration???

 

Don't forget that this is a narrative game.  Each round of combat is a sequence of actions.  It's not ducking behind a stack of crates and shooting a single shot at an enemy.  It's diving behind that stack of crates, peering around the corner, ducking to avoid some shots, counting to five, peeking back around the crates, a shot pinging off the stack right above your head causing you to curse and duck again, gritting your teeth, then popping out and shooting a series of bolts at the enemy, and then repeating this behavior for awhile.

 

So if you can trigger your ongoing effects twice, that means that effects of your enhanced Sensory abilities apply during two narrated attack sequences.  You can upgrade the difficulty of the attack of two different enemies instead of just one, which in the narrative means that your heightened senses give you a greater ability to anticipate and avoid the enemy's attacks during the series of offensive actions that two enemies are taking against you.  Or, if you have both Control actions, it might last while an enemy is attacking you, and then continues to last while you respond in kind (you upgrade their difficulty to hit you when they're shooting at you, and you also upgrade your attack dice pool when shooting back at them).

 

If it worked as you said, and you just get a bigger bonus than usual, that would have nothing to do with duration.  As the rules are actually written, where you can trigger it multiple times, it has everything to do with duration.

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It's also not necessarily the first two attacks, just two attacks of your choosing, so if there are three enemies that might attack you and a lower power one attacks first, you might want to not use it because the other two might attack later.

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As discussed in https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/90627-sense-power-upgrade-clarification/topic:

 

- The duration upgrade has a use on the offensive control-upgrade: When the character can have an additional attack in a round (this happens very-very-rarely with very specific supporting characters though).

 

Therefore my most convincing argument is defeated.

 

Conclusion: You can't use the two triggers on the same attack. (Though it would have been better if stated explicitly in the rules or in Errata)

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Conclusion: You can't use the two triggers on the same attack. (Though it would have been better if stated explicitly in the rules or in Errata)

From what I've seen, the principle designers figured that, unlike D&D 3.X and related games of that era, they didn't need to spell out every little minutiae of the rules, that players and GMs were intelligent and mature enough to understand in a general sense how certain things worked.

 

Alex76g's post however proves that's not the case, and munchkins/power-gamers will do whatever they can to twist the rules to their ultimate benefit no matter how rancidly cheesy their "conclusion" gets.

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Hi everyone, forum newbie here.

Regarding the above question: "Duration: Sense's ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round". Has there been any clarification from the DEVs on this somewhere? 

I think the answer is no - it can't work twice on the same dice roll - but it can be argued either way as it is not explicitly forbidden in the way the power is worded...the fact that there are at least two threads that seem to debate this and neither reach a consensus indicate clarification would be helpful. 

I'd really like to be able to take a conclusive answer to my game on this one. Any help appreciated. 

Tom.

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On 9.8.2016 at 1:09 PM, Donovan Morningfire said:

From what I've seen, the principle designers figured that, unlike D&D 3.X and related games of that era, they didn't need to spell out every little minutiae of the rules, that players and GMs were intelligent and mature enough to understand in a general sense how certain things worked.

 

Alex76g's post however proves that's not the case, and munchkins/power-gamers will do whatever they can to twist the rules to their ultimate benefit no matter how rancidly cheesy their "conclusion" gets.

I find the claim that only munchkins and power games would interpret the rules in a way you would not … not very delightful.  In the end it's up to each GM and table how they like to play their game and that is exactly what the rules help with, by being intentionally vague, while still trying to cater to the D&D crowd as well with silly little crunch on stuff like spending advantages and extra success on literally every skill in the game, etc 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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19 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

I find the claim that only munchkins and power games would interpret the rules in a way you would not … not very delightful.  In the end it's up to each GM and table how they like to play their game and that is exactly what the rules help with, by being intentionally vague, while still trying to cater to the D&D crowd as well with silly little crunch on stuff like spending advantages and extra success on literally every skill in the game, etc 

If the shoe fits...

But when someone comes in and asks "does this rule officially do this really cheesy thing that I think it does?" then that person is inviting criticism.

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45 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

If the shoe fits...

But when someone comes in and asks "does this rule officially do this really cheesy thing that I think it does?" then that person is inviting criticism.

When someone ask such a  question, that person invites discussion about the question, not judgment about his person. 

 

Edited by SEApocalypse

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When using the Control upgrades of Sense, you must decide whether you are committing each die to Defense or Attack. You can do both, if you have enough Force rating to commit to both! However, if you want to do both, each “commit” requires an action to perform, because each is using a Force power. Duration and Strength can apply to either, because each time, you’re making a separate use of the Force power. 
 
Hope this helps!
 
Sam Stewart
RPG Manager
Fantasy Flight Games
 
The information contained in this electronic message is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
 
On Feb 10, 2017, at 11:37 AM, no-reply@fantasyflightgames.com wrote:


Rules Question:
Hi! I had a question about the Sense power in Force and Destiny. Do the control upgrades represent the ability to commit 2 Force die and have both attack and defense upgraded for an attack? If no, is committing Force die considered an action, a maneuver, or a incidental? If yes, do the duration and strength upgrades apply to both defense and attack, or just one? Alternatively, could you use duration to upgrade both attack and defense, but only once per round? In that case would you need to commit 2 or 1 die and would the strength upgrade extend to both or one aspect? Thank you!
Edited by Dunefarble

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4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

When someone ask such a  question, that person invites discussion about the question, not judgment about his person. 

 

And when they are deliberately trying to twist the wording of the rules to do something that it's not meant to do, such as the thread claiming Move cannot be used on living targets since they're not "objects," then the derision is very much warranted.

Granted, I find this mock outrage of yours rather amusing, as you've been just as guilty of deriding the posts of others, if not more so.

I'm at least honest about my not being a saint of any sort.  You on the other hand... not so much.

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44 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I just started using this forum, and I have to say, you people are pretty awful to each other.

I've been on here for several months and I've found these sorts of confrontations to be relatively rare, actually. 

It's definitely more polite than the Dark Heresy forums were during the 2nd Edition Beta *shudder*

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14 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

I just started using this forum, and I have to say, you people are pretty awful to each other.

Oh, this is nothing.  You ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.  You just wait.

 

3 … 2 … 1 … THREADLOCK! —————>

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A strict reading of the rules says that no, it could not be doubled up for a single attack. Let's look at the wording:

Here's the Control upgrade: "Once per round, when an attack targets the Force user, he upgrades the difficulty of the pool once."

According to this, the upgrade is triggered by the attack.

Here's the Duration upgrade: "Sense's ongoing effects may be triggered one additional time per round."

This makes it plain. If the attack is triggering the Control upgrade listed above, it would take a second attack to trigger it one additional time.

 

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