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Tamati Khan

How old is the Rebellion?

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I don't know. Most of the well known wars weren't that long but there are mentions of some ancient wars lasting a century or more,

I agree a galactic war could be enormously long.  Just to process the amount of information and make informed decisions about deployment could take years alone on a galactic scale.  Then to react to results would take longer still.  Even if you can whisk about in the blink of an eye crossing distances in Star Wars, organizing and conducting a planetary invasion would be a monumental logistical endeavor.  So I think the Rebellion's main aim was to simply keep the Empire on the move and guessing, as indicated by the crawl in the one movie about the Empire's "vain attempt" to engage them.

Edited by 2P51

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Yeah I was part of an alternate setting campaign where the Galactic Civil War lasted over 300 years. (The campaign ended in 306 ABY and the war was still going.) and I know some of the wars between Coruscant and Alsakan lasted hundreds of years

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If we look into european history some wars have lasted decades, with hotter and cooler phases.

So while the actual fighting may not last that long the state of war can run for decades or centuries.

Even in the EU there were cooler phases, where nearly no shooting between New Republic and Imperial ships.

Pellaeon for example planned his last great campaign for several years with no fights to a brutal fighting for several weeks/months.

Edited by segara82

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Yeah that's basically what the New Sith Wars were according to the EU, a thousand years of hot and cold wars. And the alternate three century GCW I mentioned had the initial major fighting end about 12 ABY. Basically after that there would be cycles of one to six years of full combat than a few years of raids and skirmishing until one side developed a new ship, weapon, or plan they thought would turn the tide and launch an all out offensive. The attacked faction would develop a countermeasure and a new stalemate would form.

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Given the chamber's thunderous approval of Palpatine's announcement that clearly isn't the case.  It's far more likely the 2000 were mostly members of a few delegations, the heads of which we see meeting in the movie.  

The approval of the Senate chamber has no bearing on the rise of an opposition.  It was well established that Palpatine flooded the Senate with yes-men and lackies (it's what allowed him to manipulate the fall of Valorum and confirm his own powers and was a significant plot-point through the PT) - so the "thunderous approval" was a poor representation of the true feeling of populace at large.  The idea that a bunch of corrupt senators cheering their crimeboss would guarantee a "zero percent chance" of resistance is a bit presumptuous.

 

Even today, the actions of Senators and Congressmen don't mirror the concerns of their constituents.  Many people are dissatisfied with their representatives, the big difference is the lack of a motivating resistance, one that in the Star Wars universe we know exists.  It doesn't mean that local rebellions definitely occurred, but it certainly doesn't preclude the possibility that they could have.

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Given the chamber's thunderous approval of Palpatine's announcement that clearly isn't the case.  It's far more likely the 2000 were mostly members of a few delegations, the heads of which we see meeting in the movie.  

The approval of the Senate chamber has no bearing on the rise of an opposition.  It was well established that Palpatine flooded the Senate with yes-men and lackies (it's what allowed him to manipulate the fall of Valorum and confirm his own powers and was a significant plot-point through the PT) - so the "thunderous approval" was a poor representation of the true feeling of populace at large.  The idea that a bunch of corrupt senators cheering their crimeboss would guarantee a "zero percent chance" of resistance is a bit presumptuous.

 

Even today, the actions of Senators and Congressmen don't mirror the concerns of their constituents.  Many people are dissatisfied with their representatives, the big difference is the lack of a motivating resistance, one that in the Star Wars universe we know exists.  It doesn't mean that local rebellions definitely occurred, but it certainly doesn't preclude the possibility that they could have.

 

I think you're looking at it from the outside in and from a third person omniscient perspective though.  Look at it on its face from what would have been publicly visible.  Palpatine was the guy who successfully portrayed himself as reluctantly taking the reins in a time of crisis.  He quickly put in place a plan of action to preserve and defend the Republic.  He was making the lethargic bureaucratic mess that was the Republic nimble and decisive.  He led during a time of war giving speech after speech about 'hold the line' 'this is our finest hour' etc, and then he delivered a decisive victory and proclaimed he would deliver safety and security where the Republic had failed.

 

That's what the common man would have seen.  That's what the state controlled media would have portrayed.  I'm not saying there weren't those that saw through it, but they were the overwhelming minority and they had to lie low for quite some time or otherwise be labeled co-conspirators.

Edited by 2P51

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That's what the common man would have seen.  That's what the state controlled media would have portrayed.  I'm not saying there weren't those that saw through it, but they were the overwhelming minority and they had to lie low for quite some time or otherwise be labeled co-conspirators.

 

 

I can agree with that, but remember that the "common man" of the Core Worlds didn't side with the Rebellion until the war came to their doorstep with the destruction of Alderaan.  Prior to that, it was mostly the concern of Aliens and the Outer Rim, where former Separatists still existed and the Empire's reach was lesser.  While Dooku and Greivous were gone (along with the rest of the major leaders) the infrastructure necessary to wage a war on the scale that the Clone Wars was waged let a lot of Separatist leaders to continue resistance in less conventional forms, as well the clean-up of rogue elements of combatants takes years by itself, even in modern times - the span of the galaxy would make it more so.  Look to the fallout of the American Civil War to the after effects of the Clone Wars - and remember that was a war contained within a single country, not the expanse of the Galaxy where there were many more places to hide after making a guerilla strike.

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Also there were probably many settlements and people who weren't criminals but didn't mind being neglected by the Republic. They wouldn't be happy with the Empire sticking its nose into their business, especially at the cost of more laws and restrictions plus higher taxes.

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I like to think that the Rebel Alliance starts with the Treaty of Corellia, 2BBY. Now clearly, it didn't just spring out of existence. I mean, that's my take on it anyway.

 

The Rebel Alliance is in fact exactly what it says on the tin- an alliance of various individual rebellions spread across the Empire. The military forces that make up the Rebel Alliance during the Treaty of Corellia are probably composed of veterans that have been fighting for years, if not decades.

 

Consider the attack on the Death Star- it was conducted by Generals and sponsored and funded by politicians with lots of money. You can't just pop up with funds for a starfighter attack wing in two years, led by an experienced General of 30+ year.

 

The Rebellion before the Treaty of Corellia would be these groups.

 

  • Garm Bel Ibis' group from Corellia
  • Chandrilla's support from Mon Mothma
  • Mon Calamari's support
  • Kashyyyk exiles support
  • CIS Remnants support
  • Many non-clone troops that fought with the Jedi, such as General Koda from TFU
  • Family members of Jedi (Non Humans)
  • Atris system and other Outer Rim independant sectors
  • Neutral/pacifist financial support from Alderaan and Camaas
  • Your standard liberal hippie anti-authority Core World supporters
  • Pro-Alien Rights groups
  • Any races composed of significant Force Users, such as the Miraluka that were systematically exterminated by the Empire 

Each of these groups has varying timelines, some dating back to the declaration of the Empire. In particular the Jedi and the CIS Remnants, followed soon by the Wookies. Mon Mothma and Bail Organa were organizing funding and support for these groups for decades. 

There was a Rebellion before the Rebel Alliance- they all knew each other and knew who did what where and why. The Rebel Alliance unified all these localized planetary rebels into a single cohesive command structure that could effect change on a Galactic Scale. 

I think the most important thing about the Rebel Alliance was the creation of the Fleet. Before the Rebel Alliance, there simply was no one contesting the Empire in space battles, most rebel resources were ground based. These factions could fight the Emperor's ground troops, but they'd have to high-tail it once any capital ships showed up.

 

Much like today when we fight insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan, the rebels don't have air or anti-air assets of any significance. The Rebel Alliance would change all of that, much like the introduction of Soviet MIGs over Vietnam.

 

EDIT: I made a typo saying the Alliance started 2 ABY..it's BBY, got my acronyms confused.

Edited by TarlSS

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Don't forget Contruum. I'm not sure when the rebellion there started but it lasted years and the local Moff pulled his forces off world sometime in the 7 BBY to 1 BBY period because he felt holding the world wasn't worth the losses his troops were taking.

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It's pretty clear in the novels and comics (and deleted scenes from the movie)  that, at least on Tatooine, people think of the rebellion as a singular (if slightly nebulous) element.

 

Also, Vader uses the line in ANH: "You're a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor."

 

So, the alliance has to predate the Battle of Yaavin

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Well, remember that the term 'Rebel Alliance' is an Imperial designation, not an Alliance one. The organization known as the "Rebel Alliance" is actually properly called "The Alliance to Restore The Republic"

 

The term Rebel Alliance could have existed for much longer as a collective ISB insult or derogatory term for those groups long before the Treaty of Corellia was signed. I mean, Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were conspiring against Palpatine even during the Clone Wars.

 

Members of those groups that interacted with each other could have also referred to themselves as such long before formal declarations were made. It would be like how ignorant Americans refer to all Muslim terrorists as "Al Qaedas", or more aptly, how the Brits insulted the American Revolutionaries by calling them "Yankees". 

 

It's likely of course that way before the Treaty was signed these organizations were working together and trying out joint strike forces and such- I mean you don't sign a pledge like that if you haven't 'tested' the other guy is some way. They had to call themselves something.

Edited by TarlSS

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I know there is a ton of EU and what not but I still think any sort of resistance of significance came much later.  For the reasons I've previously pointed out the simple fact was Palpatine was viewed as a winner that brought peace.  In addition because of the TCW we now know he took control of the banks as well.  In addition it seems to me other than the fabrication to seize control of power the Clone Wars gave him it also gave him an important tool.  He got to vette the galaxy essentially and see where systems sided and why.  He got to see the inner workings of various governments thinking when the shooting starts.  I'm sure there were separatists that would be supportive of him, as well as, Republic, after the Empire was formed and he was able to determine what systems those were.  Not only could he determine who would be supportive on either side he would be able to judge who would not, and then since he was in control of the whole war, those systems deemed to be not likely to be supportive of the Empire I'm sure fared poorly in the Clone Wars.  The point those likely to oppose him on an organized scale with real resources were decimated in the Clone Wars.  It would have taken a long time to build the desire, let alone the logistics to resist in a real way.

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Its more likely IMO that the Empire started calling them the Rebel Alliance shortly after the Alliance to Restore the Republic issued its formal Declaration of Rebellion soon after the Treaty of Corellia.

 

As for logistics small cells and fleets or local armies, which provided the bulk of rebel forces between the crushing of the CIS Holdouts and the Rebel Alliance could live off the land or the black market. There were almost certainly tons of military supplies, weapons, and ships salvageable from Clone Wars battlezones, or supply depots that were either hidden, abandoned, or believed to be destroyed. As for money there was nothing stepping rich groups who disliked the Empire from slipping funds to rebels, or the rebels from generating their own money, or obtaining loans under false pretenses. It wouldn't surprise me if some rebel groups set up smuggling operations both as a means of obtaining money, and getting supplies or sold salvaged equipment they couldn't use on the black market. Hell during the Hoth period their was one rebel logistics officer who wanted to set up an Alliance run commodities exchange as a source of income and supplies.

Edited by RogueCorona

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Looking just at what we know from "Star Wars". In the novelization we are told that Luke Skywalker is a twenty-year old farmboy.

Luke wants to transmit his application to the (Imperial) Academy.

The Rebel fleet has just won its first major victory.

Vader declares that Leia is "a member of the Rebel Alliance, and a traitor."

The Imperial Senate is dissolved and control given to the regional governors.

The Empire is hated by many.

There is an established rebellion or rebellions against the Empire.

Vader, Tarkin and others refer to the "Rebel Base" singular. Leia tells them it is on Dantooine, then the Empire tracks the Millennium Falcon to Yavin.

There are Stormtroopers on Tatooine, and when Obi-wan tells Han they would like to avoid any "Imperial entanglements" Han replies that "these days that's quite the trick" implying that the Imperial presence is growing.

Leia tells Tarkin "The more you tighten your grip the more systems will slip through your grasp" again highlighting that it is Imperial oppression that is driving the rebellion.

No Mon Calmari are seen, perhaps they have not yet joined the Rebellion?

No significant Rebel Fleet is present at Yavin, just star fighters.

General Kenobi fought in the Clone Wars so they were an occurrence within living memory, but we are not told who the combatants were.

We are told that the Jedi are extinct, and that they were guardians of the OlD Republic which was replaced by the Empire.

We are not told if the current Emperor is the first or the two hundred and first.

We are told that Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Knight and was betrayed and murdered by a young Jedi named Darth Vader.

We are told that Vader was a public of Kenobi.

Luke "wants to become a Jedi like my father" he obviously believes that it is possible to do so.

Taking all of this together, it seems reasonable to assume that the Clone Wars were within the last thirty years or so, that the extinction of the last of the Jedi occurred after the end of the Clone Wars, that the "Rebel Alliance" is still a small but growing organization, and that worlds are in rebellion against the Empire.

I think it likely that there is a broad general "rebellion against the Empire" and a specific "Alliance to Restore the Old Republic". Leia Organa is one of the leaders of the latter. The Alliance may be an alliance of worlds or an alliance of groups, we are not told which. Until Return of the Jedi we do not even see non-human members of the Alliance.

In Empire Strikes Back reference is made to Echo Base, suggesting there are other bases. Echo Base also seems to still be under construction, suggesting that Alliance HQ is only starting the process of rebuilding a central base. Interestingly enough when the Imperial Fleet comes out of hyperspace they meet no Rebel Fleet in opposition. The Rebels have many transports, some fighters, and large planet based ion cannon, but no space fleet. There is a rendezvous point with "the fleet" mentioned, so it is well within possibility that the Rebel Fleet is based elsewhere.

For my personal campaign I take as "canon" only what is in the published FFG books. Everything else, including the movies is only possible futures if nothing happens to change it. I want to tell my own stories without worrying about having to read every novel, comic book, TV episode, Star Wars fan publication, etc.

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Interestingly enough when the Imperial Fleet comes out of hyperspace they meet no Rebel Fleet in opposition. The Rebels have many transports, some fighters, and large planet based ion cannon, but no space fleet. There is a rendezvous point with "the fleet" mentioned, so it is well within possibility that the Rebel Fleet is based elsewhere.

This is intentional. The idea of keeping the Rebel Command separate from the Rebel Fleet so that both could not be hit with a single attack.

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The Star Wars Essential Guide to Warfare is particularly helpful in explaining the base/fleet dynamic. It gives some history to it, while keeping things in line with what we see in the films. Hoth was a major defeat for the Rebels, which forced them into the fleet first policy that Ackbar had been working on. However, something that's a bit more EU is that the fleet had nearly been destroyed in an Imperial sneak attack before Hoth... so there was a back and forth between whether or not the hidden base strategy or the mobile fleet strategy was the best. The defeat at Hoth made that choice for them.

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Yeah though in all fairness I'm pretty sure that by Hoth the main Alliance fleet was actually far stronger than it had been right after getting hit at Deep Space Besh. The Mon Calamari may have contributed some ships to the Alliance pre-Besh but it wasn't until Besh that they committed the bulk of their fleet. And there was more than two years between Besh and Hoth for the fleet to rebuild.

Edited by RogueCorona

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The Galactic (Old) Republic lasted for 25,034 years, and the last three years of it's existence (25,031 to 25,034 years after the original foundation of the Old Republic)  saw it pitted against the breakaway Confederacy of Independent Systems in the so-called Clone Wars. 

 

25,034 years after the foundation of the Old Republic saw the end of the Clone Wars, the extermination of the Jedi Order (Order 66), the formation of the Galactic Empire, and Supreme Chancellor Palpatine becomes Emperor Palpatine. 

 

The Rebel Alliance (more properly called the Alliance to Restore the Republic) was founded when the Galactic Empire was 17 years old (25,051 years after the foundation of the Old Republic). 

 

The Battle of Yavin, in which the original Death Star battlestation was destroyed, occurred when the Imperial regime was 19 years old (25,053 years after the foundation of the Old Republic). 

 

The Battle of Hoth, where the Rebel Alliance headquarters was invaded by Imperial forces, and forced Rebel elements to evacuate the planet Hoth, occurred when the Empire was 22 years old (25,056 years after the foundation of the Old Republic). 

 

The Battle of Endor, resulting in a severe Imperial defeat above and on the Forest Moon of the planet Endor, the deaths of Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, and the destruction of the second and last Death Star battlestation, occurred when the Galactic Empire was 23 years old (25,057 years after the foundation of the Old Republic).  Soon after the Battle of Endor, the Rebel Alliance forms a new government called the New Republic, and the Empire splits into rival factions.

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Looking just at what we know from "Star Wars". In the novelization we are told that Luke Skywalker is a twenty-year old farmboy.

 

That seems to be retconned to Luke and Leia being 19 years old.  Which I believe was Carrie Fisher's actual age although Hamill was 23.

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Looking just at what we know from "Star Wars". In the novelization we are told that Luke Skywalker is a twenty-year old farmboy.

 

That seems to be retconned to Luke and Leia being 19 years old.  Which I believe was Carrie Fisher's actual age although Hamill was 23.

 

That's OK, Tatooine will prematurely age your appearance anyway. Just look to Kenobi for how hard he aged in 19 years.

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Looking just at what we know from "Star Wars". In the novelization we are told that Luke Skywalker is a twenty-year old farmboy.

 

That seems to be retconned to Luke and Leia being 19 years old.  Which I believe was Carrie Fisher's actual age although Hamill was 23.

 

That's OK, Tatooine will prematurely age your appearance anyway. Just look to Kenobi for how hard he aged in 19 years.

 

Hey!

 

To be fair to Kenobi, he was shot, stabbed, captured, and even enslaved about a hundred times before cutting off his best friend's legs and throwing him into a volcano.

 

The guys coming back from Afghanistan are a lot worse off, and they not see nearly the amount of action Kenobi did...I mean, not to denigrate their sacrifices, but no one sane sends one guy on over one hundred heavy combat missions over a period of 5 years. Kenobi's been on more combat missions than is even possible for a normal person.

Edited by TarlSS

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Okay lets start at the beginning which would be the end of Episode 3.  The seperatist droid armies have been switched off and the recall ahs been made for both armies.  However, you have a lot of Geonosians and Neimoidians who invested a lot of time money and lives into the war.  They aren't just going to go back to being peaceful races.  Second there was actually a few clone rebellions when Order 66 went out (including elite commando units) who did not proceed to kill their Jedi leaders.  After that you had the Eleven (11 Jedi who survived) and tried to lead a rebellion against the Empire and fail.  Also you have thousands of planets that were not too happy with the change to status so alien rebellions.  What did all these things have in common?  They are all examples of isolated pockets of rebels who had no structure or very good plans.  The Rebel Alliance didn't officially form until 2 BBY with the Corellian treaty but that doesn't mean there weren't rebels before hand.  You had irregular units and groups and planets even who were against Empire control.  You had sectors like the Hapes Consortium who had enough firepower and muscle to hold off the Empire from conquering their territory.  You had the Chiss Empire out on the Outer Rim that had the ability to hold back an Imperial battlegroup.  So if you want your group to start 11 BBY then you have a lot of places they can start.  Perhaps they keep a planet or sector out of Emprie hands through the course of time becoming the leaders of their Rebel army and navy and one of the key signers in the Declaration of Rebellion that is issued later.  It was called an Alliance and alliances don't happen overnight so you had politicos and diplomats out there negotiating these planets to organize and ally with one another.  Perhaps depending on the player make up that is what they are doing going from planet to planet sector to sector trying to get them to ally against the Empire.  That can take years as some races (like the Toydarians) prefer seeing actions over words.  

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