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Tamati Khan

How old is the Rebellion?

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I think the typical hierarchical resistance military force seen as the Rebel Alliance was still a fairly new entity by Episode IV. The years after the Clone Wars would have seen the Emperor as the victor and the guy that restored peace to the galaxy.  There wouldn't have been any popular resistance at all to his rule.  He brought peace, he controlled the money as we've now seen in TCWs.  There were the very select few who knew who he was but they also knew they had no way to prove it and no chance of standing against him militarily or politically.

 

The years following the end of the Clone Wars I think Bail Organa and those select few probably spent the bulk of their time gathering evidence to show what the Emperor was to be used to convince others, and probably assisted in a kind Jedi underground railroad, to spirit and hide away as many as they could.  They probably then turned their efforts to goading the Emperor into actions that would foment dissatisfaction with his rule.  That could then be grown into more open resistance.

 

There were probably deals made with organized crime by both sides, which is essentially the ready made covert non governmental organization that exists in every society.

 

Hubris on the Emperor's part led to him caring less and less about the subtleties of politics as time went by, which eventually led to openly enslaving worlds and ultimately more open resistance.  Probably by that point Organa and the original cadre of folks from the early days began their moves at forming a more active resistance.

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A New Hope says the first victory of the Rebel Alliance is getting the Death Star plans.  I would imagine, even without any of the EU, that they couldn't have existed for too terribly long before that. 

They could have had any number of disastrous failures though. Like the first attack on the Death Star (described in the novel of the same name).

 

No, they couldn't have. A series of disastrous failures would doom the alliance. Even one prior to a significant victory endangers it.

 

The author of that novel needs to review the effects of morale upon military forces. 

 

Irregulars can often "recover" from even disastrously pyrrhic victories, but significant defeats generally result in fragmentation and dispersal. (This is the secret of religious zealotry - they may die, but as long as the group's force accomplishes some level of victory and has a promise of posthumous reward, they're willing to give it their literal all... because they see that it matters.)

 

 

The Guide to Warfare describes Operation Domino, the EU Alliance's first campaign, as a series of disasters with only a few victories like the Mon Calamari revolution, and possibly Contruum. (The Contruum militia inflicted enough damage that the local Moff pulled his forces off world. This was either pre-Alliance or early Alliance but no date has been given AFAIK.)

 

And the idea that any significant defeats in the early stages would doom the rebellion is insane. Pretty much every successful rebellion in history has taken a number of major defeat during their wars with many taking such defeats in their early phases but continuing to fight on despite them..

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The Rebellion can only have so many major defeats until they're entirely wiped out.

Which part? By name alone we know that it's not a single unified entity, but an Alliance of different groups. How many groups, what they do, how they work, what their motivations are, their interactions with other allied members.

 

Even the very words "Major defeat" are highly variable. One mans tacky leg lamp is anothers major award...

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True though from the description of Operation Domino most of the forces involved in it were local or sector level forces rather than the main Alliance Fleet. At this point almost all Alliance ships and forces were still controlled at the local level with High command coordinating their efforts. The Alliance fleet mostly consisted of ships that had managed to flee when their home forces were overrun by the Empire And the Alliance Special Forces, aka the army units under High Command's direct control did not exist yet because they were organized in response to the failures of Operation Domino. The only major defeat that we know of the Alliance Fleet suffering pre-Battle of Yavin was the loss of the Fortressa and her fighter compliment when they tried to hit the Death Star at the Death Star's construction site. Losing a Battleship/carrier and all her fighters was certainly a hard blow for the early Alliance Fleet but hardly a fatal one.

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The Rebellion can only have so many major defeats until they're entirely wiped out.

Which part? By name alone we know that it's not a single unified entity, but an Alliance of different groups. How many groups, what they do, how they work, what their motivations are, their interactions with other allied members.

 

Even the very words "Major defeat" are highly variable. One mans tacky leg lamp is anothers major award...

 

I know it's all very variable, but if the Alliance, any of the different groups, are constantly losing military battles then they are also constantly losing lives and morale.   Without any victories they will die out over time, either from people literally dying, or from a lack of morale drawing in more people.

 

The point I'm trying to make is, based on their first victory coming right before Episode IV, that it seems more likely that the Alliance has been around for a more brief amount of time, like a few years, rather than immediatly after Episode III like some people have suggested.   And the EU corresponds with this.

 

 

The Rebellion as an idea though... that's much older.

Edited by Revanchist7

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Yeah I agree that the Alliance itself wasn't very old. Even defining the first victory part as counting only major battles, and thus not counting the small raids which you see the rebels pulling off regularly in the EU, plus only counting space battles since the line specifically refers to rebel ships winning their first victory rather than rebel forces winning their first victory I would have put the Alliance at no more than 3 years old when ANH took place even before the EU set its founding at 2 BBY. But the groups which formed the Alliance could have existed and been fighting the Empire much longer, if they weren't doing enough damage to be considered worth the effort the Empire would have to put out to hunt them down.

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I have been looking through the old the old West End Games Star Wars books for campaign ideas. I keep finding protagonists that are referred to as being with the Empire for generations, but always non specific amount of time.

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Yeah I think back than everyone thought the Empire was much older than it was later revealed to be. Either Dark Force Rising or The Last Command refers to the incident that devastated Honoghr as taking place during the Clone Wars but also states that it occurred 44 Imperial standard years before the events of the book which would have meant the incident took place roughly 35 BBY, or more than a decade before the Clone Wars started. The incident was later retroconned to take place in 20 BBY or about 29 years before the Thrawn Trilogy.

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I'm just happy to make up my own little Rebellion, rather than bogged down in dates regarding the Rebel Alliance. It means that I can still have my "growing up" games from as early as 19 BBY and then countdown to some of the events such as the destruction of Alderaan and the Battle of Yavin. This gives me about 27 years between my own little rebellion starting and the Battle of Endor, while at the same time not having to stop there if the games continue to be exciting.

 

I'm working on improving my planet backgrounds and such, with the most important point being my little region of space being somewhere towards the outer rim, if not outer rim.

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All the original EU source material and the movies themselves point to the birth of the Rebel Alliance coinciding with Palpatine's assumption of power 19 BBY, Initially it was opposed politically, with a handful of systems openly opposing it, Order 66 crackdown on the Jedi coincided with similar orders to assassinate vocal heads of state that opposed the formation of the Empire.

 

Early opposition from individual systems was met with such overwhelming force that the rest of the galaxy learned to hide their sympathies, produce half hearted efforts to deal with home grown rebel elements and wait and see.  Early years were spent secretly negotiating with sympathetic governments and Rebel cells to come under one coordinated leadership with the goal to restore the Republic, Keep in mind many rebels initially preferred a break from Empire and Republic entirely.   The Alliance to Restore the Republic is in essence from a US centric view the Declaration of Independence combined with the formation of a Continental Army which occurs closer to the Battle of Yavin in canon with the Corellion Treaty(The Force Unleashed now being non-canon, good riddance, you are free to set the exact date of said treaty slightly earlier in the timeline if you prefer), which is not to say nascent rebel operatives were not openly fighting battles on a smaller scale all over the galaxy, even prior to the Treaty being adopted.

Edited by Greymere

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In the WEG Rebel Alliance Sourcebook from 1994, it says that opposition to "President Palpatine" began almost immediately upon him taking office.

 

Actally unless I remember wrong it says from the instant he declare himself Emperor but I'll have to try to dig my copy out. And that rebellion was not the Rebel Alliance. They make it very clear that those were mainly local rebellions. And yeah the ANH novelization describing Palpatine's rise to power refers to him as President of the Senate rather than Chancellor. Other than that and a point which Return of the Jedi showed as false the part on his rise to power remained pretty accurate through the Prequel Trilogy though.

 

Which we now know from the PT and TCWs that was not the case.  Canon changed then and I see a lot more changing with the new movies as well.

 

I seriously doubt the new movies will be changing much that happened pre-Return of the Jedi. and how could the prequels and The Clone Wars possibky show us what happened between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope?

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No I wouldn't expect the new movies to change what occurred in movies already.  I do think post RotJ is thrown into the air. In regards to the formation of the rebellion given the thunderous applause Palpatine received with his Empire announcement in Sith there was zero chance of any open revolt right after Sith.  It would have taken time for abuses to occur and disillusionment to set in.  The misgivings of a few politicians would have meant little.

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2000 is hardly a term I would apply the term "a few" to, additionally the supplanting of regional control from elected Senators to Moffs occurred shortly after the events in Sith which, coupled with atrocities commited against peaceful demonstrations such as the Ghorman Massacre which occurred 1 year after the events of Sith, it did not take a signifigant amount of time to polarize opposition.

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2000 is hardly a term I would apply the term "a few" to, additionally the supplanting of regional control from elected Senators to Moffs occurred shortly after the events in Sith which, coupled with atrocities commited against peaceful demonstrations such as the Ghorman Massacre which occurred 1 year after the events of Sith, it did not take a signifigant amount of time to polarize opposition.

In the context of 1.75 million integrated worlds of the Empire, even if there were only half that many in the Republic, all of whom elected a Senator to the Senatorial delegations and with elected heads of individual planets also able to introduce legislation you're right, 'a few' is too generous a descriptor, 2000 would be miniscule in comparison on that size.

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1.75 intergrated worlds yes, the vast majority of which were not represented in the Senete, additionaly many Senete Delegations were for multiple planets or systems as the norm, the 2000 were not an insignifigant number you are trying to imply

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1.75 intergrated worlds yes, the vast majority of which were not represented in the Senete, additionaly many Senete Delegations were for multiple planets or systems as the norm, the 2000 were not an insignifigant number you are trying to imply

You're assuming the delegation of 2000 were all heads of the various delegations in the Senate itself.  Given the chamber's thunderous approval of Palpatine's announcement that clearly isn't the case.  It's far more likely the 2000 were mostly members of a few delegations, the heads of which we see meeting in the movie.  So again, given a Senate delegation each represented dozens if not hundreds of worlds, and the clear majority of the body was cheering Palpatine, the delegation of 2000 was miniscule on the scale of the Galactic Republic.

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In my own backgrounds, each system will have it's own political history. One might even be among the delegation of 2000. Among the backgrounds are:

 

(1) Turning on the Clones following Order 66 to help save the life of a Jedi who saved them from the CIS.

(2) Planet which suffered abuse from Clones taking their only food and water, causing the people to riot.

(3) One of 2000, fled to his home planet hotly pursued by Palpatine's cronies. His people take up arms against his pursuers.

 

As you can see, I'm mounting my own rebellion which may, or may not, join the alliance later. Got lots of ideas.

Edited by Tamati Khan

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Palpatine takes the position of Supreme chancellor --> Systems break away from the Republic -->  Bands of rebels take form on various oppressed worlds (Onderon rebels) --> The Delegation of 2000 --> The Empire forms --> The Ghorman Massacre; Delegation starts to consider open Rebellion --> Bands of rebels take form on various oppressed worlds (Rebels tv show, Corellian Resistance, Kota's Militia) --> The Corellian Treaty gives birth to the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

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Yeah there were basically two major rebellions against Palptine's reign. One took place during the Republic and one took place during the Empire though the former was secretly controlled by Palpatine. However I don't believe that Palpatine was behind the separatist movement ever became common knowledge within the Star Wars setting. I believe I already mentioned origin ideas for small scale Empire foundation period organized resistance movements so no reason to list them again.

Edited by RogueCorona

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