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Tamati Khan

How old is the Rebellion?

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Please tell me that Wookieepedia have their facts wrong and that the Rebellion was longer than that. My whole plot rests on a timeline spanning, at least, a decade. If you confirm that the Rebellion was indeed just seven years, I'm going to have to do some rethinking.

 

Ah, that's an easy answer! It's whenever you want! Your story best served by small pockets of rebellion slowly coalescing into one unified fighting force halfway between EIII and EIV? Then it is so. You like the Force Unleashed? Then it was never junked. No rebellion at all? Fine! Canon at your table is whatever you say it is, Lucasfilm and Disney and Wookieepedia be dammned.

 

 

I'm going to like that comment simply because that is my attitude towards gaming. You should have seen me when I used to play with Star Wars toys as a boy. That was most definitely non-canon but I was happy.

 

Only reason I wanted to stick to canon was to add that sense of....ahem.....realism to my games. But I think I'll just not stress and do my own Rebellion. They can join the Alliance later in the story. Gives me about 19 BBY to 4 ABY, hence 24 years to play with.

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The way I think about it is as such:

 

The Rebel Alliance wasn't formed until...whenever it was in TFU (4 BBY or whatever). However that doesn't mean there wasn't Rebel factions before that. The time wookieepedia states its formation is simply when the Rebels became an organised group with the potential to eventually become a government.

 

You still have Rebels...and they still fight the Empire without getting in each others way, and canon is kept more or less in place.

 

However as others have said, it is what you make of it, you are the GM of course.

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The way I think about it is as such:

 

The Rebel Alliance wasn't formed until...whenever it was in TFU (4 BBY or whatever). However that doesn't mean there wasn't Rebel factions before that. The time wookieepedia states its formation is simply when the Rebels became an organised group with the potential to eventually become a government.

 

You still have Rebels...and they still fight the Empire without getting in each others way, and canon is kept more or less in place.

 

However as others have said, it is what you make of it, you are the GM of course.

 

This. I mean, technically there have been rebels since before the Separatists (it's where many Separatists came from). You also had that cabal of senators (Amadala, Mothma, Organa, etc) that opposed Palpatine's policies during the war that would go on to shape the Alliance.

 

It's not like they all woke up one day after 13 years and decided to get organized.

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It is really hard to pinpoint a specific event that creates the rebellion.  Was it the treaty of Correllia? or the end of the clone wars? You could easily say it started when Palpatine became Chancellor and Launched the Grand army of the Republic while Senator Organa pounded his fist in disagreement.

 

The Rebellion did not become a legitimate threat to the Empire until after the Battle of Yavin.  The  disbanding of the Senete, Destruction of Alderaan, and Destroying the Death star were events that had Galactic ramifications and could not be ignored or covered up.

 

I also think the Time between the battle of Yavin, and the Battle of Endor can easily be expanding and drawn out a bit more to around 5 to 10 years very easily and not have to stay with using the ages of Luke and Liea to define the timeline.

 

George Lucas makes a lot of parallels of the Rise of the Empire is similar to the Rise of German Nazi.  You could say Nazi started when Hitler went to prison, or wrote Mein Kampf.  Or you could even go as far back as the end of WWI and the creating of the German Worker's Party, and as far forward to the point of Hitler being named Chancellor, or the death of President Hindenburg and Hitler declaring himself Führer.

 

more to the point, you need to ask yourself Is it important to you to have the Rebellion in your game? and how do you get you players involved

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My way of playing the Alliance to Restore the Republic (aka the Rebellion) is similar (sorry for the sad parallel)  to the way Al-Qaïda evolved in the terrorist nebula in our world. Before Yavin, it was a powerful group with good backup and political support, but it was not alone. After Yavin (the 9/11 for Al-Qaïda) and the great victory the destruction of the first Death Star represented, it become far more popular and every rebel faction wanted to be part of it.

I know that my parallel can unease some people, but let's face it the Rebellion operate as a terrorist faction (and is designated as such by the Empire), following the sames tactics (hit and run, guerrilla, etc.) and using the same "codes". The difference here is that they use them for a good cause and mostly against military target. I say mostly, because I am pretty sure that civilian targets were hit by the Rebellion during the Galactic Civil War. War is always ugly, and it get uglier when both sides are unbalanced.

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My way of playing the Alliance to Restore the Republic (aka the Rebellion) is similar (sorry for the sad parallel)  to the way Al-Qaïda evolved in the terrorist nebula in our world. Before Yavin, it was a powerful group with good backup and political support, but it was not alone. After Yavin (the 9/11 for Al-Qaïda) and the great victory the destruction of the first Death Star represented, it become far more popular and every rebel faction wanted to be part of it.

I know that my parallel can unease some people, but let's face it the Rebellion operate as a terrorist faction (and is designated as such by the Empire), following the sames tactics (hit and run, guerrilla, etc.) and using the same "codes". The difference here is that they use them for a good cause and mostly against military target. I say mostly, because I am pretty sure that civilian targets were hit by the Rebellion during the Galactic Civil War. War is always ugly, and it get uglier when both sides are unbalanced.

I look at the Rebellion exactly the opposite way.  I also don't think of Yavin as the rallying point, but rather Alderaan.  I think prior to Alderaan the Rebellion was scattered and had little overt support.  The opening crawl of Ep IV says the Rebels have just won their first victory and obtained the DS plans as a result.  After Yavin the crawl at the beginning of Empire says the Rebels are on the run and hiding from the Imperials in their new secret base.

 

I think the period between IV and VI was the Rebellion spreading the truth about Alderaan and Yavin to as many systems as possible.  Using that I think the Alliance built support for itself and undermined the Empire so by the time we see RotJ the Alliance now has itself based on its own armada.

 

I've always felt in this game and overall, spies, ambassadors, and slicers were more important to the Alliance than soldiers, pilots, and gunners.  It's always about logistics.

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I think it's to the point where the starting point of the rebel alliance is more a question of the definition of rebel alliance, and how much EU should be included.

 

Was Yavin THE rebel base, or A rebel base? Do we count Alliance members from the point they started rebeling, or the point they started allying? At what point did the rebellion cross over from a bunch of paramilitary nutballs and political activists to a legitimate opposition group? Did a bunch of politicians sitting in a Coruscant apartment agreeing with each other count as the Alliance, or did we have to wait until they started shooting, or until they agreed Sam Witwer was amazing?

 

Agree on answers to all of those...

You can't.

then you'll know when the Rebellion started.

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Realistically the odds on a group powerful enough for the Empire to consider it more than a minor annoyance only having one base seems incredibly unlikely to me so I just go with the base on Yavin IV being Alliance HQ but every GM or group has to make its own choices on that point.

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Xalendar, next time try WWII European resistance movements, you'll get generally better results all around.

 

I would like to use the European resistance movements as a reference, but I know quite well these movements and sadly:

  • They never had a major / impacting victory / action against the nazi occupation.
  • They were never able to unite, there were many different political sensitivity and they never agreed on... anything (except kicking nazi out).
  • Except for Yugoslavia, no national resistance movement had been able to free his country without the help of either the Russian army or the US / British army.

Historically speaking, WWII cannot be used as a reference for the Alliance.

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Xalendar, next time try WWII European resistance movements, you'll get generally better results all around.

 

I would like to use the European resistance movements as a reference, but I know quite well these movements and sadly:

  • They never had a major / impacting victory / action against the nazi occupation.
  • They were never able to unite, there were many different political sensitivity and they never agreed on... anything (except kicking nazi out).
  • Except for Yugoslavia, no national resistance movement had been able to free his country without the help of either the Russian army or the US / British army.

Historically speaking, WWII cannot be used as a reference for the Alliance.

 

There is no resistance movement in history that didn't have some other nation pulling its strings, successful or not.  There really is no precedence.  

 

The Alliance wasn't focused on beating the Empire militarily in a fight, guerilla or otherwise.  A lot of the EU portrays it that way, but if you just draw from the OT's and opening crawls of IV and V, the Alliance was on the move and not launching offensive operations until Endor.

 

When Endor came Mon Mothma talks about the Imperial fleet spread across the galaxy in a vain effort to engage the Alliance.  She then concludes by pointing out the most important aspect is the Emperor was going to be on DS-2.  The Emperor was the key and he was the target.  Engaging the Empire in a fight was pointless and they knew it.  They were waiting for the money shot and Endor was it.

 

The Alliance was about undermining galactic support for the Empire.  Any military operations were probably mostly feints to get the Imperial Fleet running willy nilly all over.  The guerilla operations were probably mostly stealing things.  Spying was a huge effort the Alliance undertook.  They obtained the plans for both DSs through spying.  

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I figure the ones that survived by the time of the battle of Yavin had experienced maybe between under a decade to at least 2 decades of fighting whether originally on the Separatist or Republic side it still counted.

 

The crucial point is when they became rebels, was it when the Jedi was turned on by the Clone Troopers or when they directly experienced the Empire when it reached their homes?

 

Before I ended up leaving my old game group i had planned on a game where they were all member of a privateers unit in the Tapani Sector whose work was being slowly phased out by the Empire as they expanded their control over the Sector and beyond.

 

My starting place was that the Empire secretly attacked their home intending to cover up the attack as part of their plans to assume greater control but the PCs escaped on an old obsolete small carrier holding 3 Z-95 Headhunters' with which they could rebuild their unit.

 

Never got off the ground sadly, the opening game requiring they select 3 templates left one of them assuming I was going to mess up their previous character when it was just an introduction I hoped at a later point to run under FFG rules but it did leave me wondering when exactly to start running it.

 

That game would have been set shortly after Empire Strikes Back, but I can't help thinking that had I the chance to run that properly it would have been set at the end of the Clone Wars to explain how they ended up starting where they did in that short game with their present day characters.

Edited by copperbell

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I've always considered - and gone with - the idea that there are lots of smaller rebel groups prior to the Alliance - which is essentially all those groups banding together under a single managing body in order to better damage and oppose the Galactic Empire.

 

Though TFU is non-canon, I've decided to still take elements from it and incorporate it as S-Canon (Shakespearian-Canon, yo!) - namely things like the existance of Juno Eclipse (she was cool), and General Kota surviving Order 66 and actively attacking Imperial targets in an attempt to draw out Vader.

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I've always seen the Alliance dating to about 10 years (roughly) before New Hope.

 

The prequels are all about the unchecked abuse of emergency powers. Although the signs were there, it's unlikely that the camel's back would have finally broken until several years after Palpatine's reorganization. While there were political dissidents (like Organa) long before Yavin and perhaps even the Clone Wars, it would have taken them some time to exhaust other resources and lobbying efforts and turn to treason. Obviously, this consolidation of power took some time, since the Senate wasn't abolished until New Hope some 20 years later.

 

Another factor is the Clone Wars themselves (also the Battle of Endor, as others pointed out). Revenge of the Sith doesn't mark the very and sudden end of the Clone Wars. The whole thing probably dragged on for a few more years while Palpatine consolidated his power. This was a turning point rather than a moment of change (again, as with how things continued for some time following Endor).

 

In broad strokes, this puts the Alliance somewhere at a mid point between 3 and 4. Organa, Mon Motha, and the other big wigs would have spent quite some time working within the system to try and limit Palpatine's emergency powers and restore the democratic process. I figure that after a decade of Palpatine gaining more power while the Senate and early rebels keep losing theirs, Team Alliance would have only at this point considered treason against the Emperor and started moving forward with plan B (or rather plan Z at this point). Running out of options, they would have only started moving against the Empire a short time before the Alliance was officially formed.

 

As with any major event, it is hard to completely point to when the Alliance formed. As a military and (basically) terrorist entity, this was only a few years before Yavin. As political movement, the signs can be seen decades before. But as an identifiable entity and a clear string of cause and effect, I really see it in that decade following the Clone Wars.

 

So for a number, I'd have to say that the Alliance, in some form or the other, probably lasted 20 years (a few before its formal creation, the 7 or so years covered the movies and other details, and few years after for the Empire to finally be defeated and the New Republic to form). I think that number gives enough flexibility.

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While, Like ScooterinAB, I see the rebellion beginning in about 10BBY, I don't see the Rebel Alliance until about 2-3 BBY. The term Rebel Alliance implies multiple constituent groups joining together... 

 

I suspect highly that Yavin is towards the early end of the Alliance - by Hoth, they've got military uniforms and insignia, while at Yavin, they appear to be in a mixture of uniforms (some are Alderaanian, matching the ones on the Consular ship, but not all) and civies.

 

At Hoth, we see everyone in the same uniforms... but not at Yavin. There are 4 distinct uniforms in evidence...

  • Alderaanian Blue shirt with black vest and white & black helmets.
  • Khaki-green with beige ball-caps
  • Tan with white helmets - different pattern helmet from the Aderaanian.
  • Orange Flight Suits with Flight Helmets
  • Camouflage (green and tan) with white helmets - same pattern, but withotu the black, as the Alderaan ones
  • Luke, Leia, Han, and several others on the dais in civies.

It looks to me like 2-4 different services, plus the pilots. 

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While, Like ScooterinAB, I see the rebellion beginning in about 10BBY, I don't see the Rebel Alliance until about 2-3 BBY. The term Rebel Alliance implies multiple constituent groups joining together... 

 

I suspect highly that Yavin is towards the early end of the Alliance - by Hoth, they've got military uniforms and insignia, while at Yavin, they appear to be in a mixture of uniforms (some are Alderaanian, matching the ones on the Consular ship, but not all) and civies.

 

At Hoth, we see everyone in the same uniforms... but not at Yavin. There are 4 distinct uniforms in evidence...

  • Alderaanian Blue shirt with black vest and white & black helmets.
  • Khaki-green with beige ball-caps
  • Tan with white helmets - different pattern helmet from the Aderaanian.
  • Orange Flight Suits with Flight Helmets
  • Camouflage (green and tan) with white helmets - same pattern, but withotu the black, as the Alderaan ones
  • Luke, Leia, Han, and several others on the dais in civies.

It looks to me like 2-4 different services, plus the pilots. 

 

To be fair, a joint operation with the U.S. military could mean as many as five or six different uniforms in one place at a given time:  

 

Army: ACU/UCP, Multicam (Sorry, the "Operation Enduring Freedom Camouflage Pattern")

Air Force: ABU, Flight Suit (Green or Tan, depending on environment), Multicam

Navy: Navy Working Uniform, Navy Coveralls, Flight Suit

Muhreens: MARPAT (Varying colors, depending on environment), Flight Suit

 

And then you've got all the specialized and obsolete uniforms that people wear because nothing else is available, or because the mission requires it. For the longest time, Air Force personnel were deploying with old DCUs left over from the First Gulf War.

 

At Hoth, the Rebels are all wearing their cold weather gear, which was probably Rhen Var surplus left over from the Clone Wars.

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While, Like ScooterinAB, I see the rebellion beginning in about 10BBY, I don't see the Rebel Alliance until about 2-3 BBY. The term Rebel Alliance implies multiple constituent groups joining together... 

 

I suspect highly that Yavin is towards the early end of the Alliance - by Hoth, they've got military uniforms and insignia, while at Yavin, they appear to be in a mixture of uniforms (some are Alderaanian, matching the ones on the Consular ship, but not all) and civies.

 

At Hoth, we see everyone in the same uniforms... but not at Yavin. There are 4 distinct uniforms in evidence...

  • Alderaanian Blue shirt with black vest and white & black helmets.
  • Khaki-green with beige ball-caps
  • Tan with white helmets - different pattern helmet from the Aderaanian.
  • Orange Flight Suits with Flight Helmets
  • Camouflage (green and tan) with white helmets - same pattern, but withotu the black, as the Alderaan ones
  • Luke, Leia, Han, and several others on the dais in civies.

It looks to me like 2-4 different services, plus the pilots. 

 

 

I personally agree with the idea that some of the CIS forces kept fighting after the Empire was declared. Regarding rebellion within Republic controlled territories I think there were probably some early uprisings, especially on worlds that had their senators arrested in the aftermath of the Petition of 2000, or that saw the cruelties of the Empire early. I imagine on some worlds, ones that had recently been reoccupied by the Republic and had pro-CIS guerrilla networks in place, or those whose local defense forces hadn't been transferred away these were fairly organized.

 

Most worlds though probably took a few years before any organized resistance was formed. Than a few years later, say 9 to 11 after the Empire formed, some of the resistance units start reaching out to rebel groups in neighboring systems to try and coordinate efforts leading to forces like the Atrivis Resistance Group, and a few years after that the Alliance forms, though at first it was only a few groups, and IMO it never actually unified every anti-Imperial insurgent group.

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While, Like ScooterinAB, I see the rebellion beginning in about 10BBY, I don't see the Rebel Alliance until about 2-3 BBY. The term Rebel Alliance implies multiple constituent groups joining together... 

 

I suspect highly that Yavin is towards the early end of the Alliance - by Hoth, they've got military uniforms and insignia, while at Yavin, they appear to be in a mixture of uniforms (some are Alderaanian, matching the ones on the Consular ship, but not all) and civies.

 

At Hoth, we see everyone in the same uniforms... but not at Yavin. There are 4 distinct uniforms in evidence...

  • Alderaanian Blue shirt with black vest and white & black helmets.
  • Khaki-green with beige ball-caps
  • Tan with white helmets - different pattern helmet from the Aderaanian.
  • Orange Flight Suits with Flight Helmets
  • Camouflage (green and tan) with white helmets - same pattern, but withotu the black, as the Alderaan ones
  • Luke, Leia, Han, and several others on the dais in civies.

It looks to me like 2-4 different services, plus the pilots. 

 

To be fair, a joint operation with the U.S. military could mean as many as five or six different uniforms in one place at a given time:  

 

Army: ACU/UCP, Multicam (Sorry, the "Operation Enduring Freedom Camouflage Pattern")

Air Force: ABU, Flight Suit (Green or Tan, depending on environment), Multicam

Navy: Navy Working Uniform, Navy Coveralls, Flight Suit

Muhreens: MARPAT (Varying colors, depending on environment), Flight Suit

 

And then you've got all the specialized and obsolete uniforms that people wear because nothing else is available, or because the mission requires it. For the longest time, Air Force personnel were deploying with old DCUs left over from the First Gulf War.

 

At Hoth, the Rebels are all wearing their cold weather gear, which was probably Rhen Var surplus left over from the Clone Wars.

 

The DCU vs the ACU isn't that big a difference - not big enough to be seen in the formation at the awards ceremony without very careful observation.

 

Also note: I said different services - a US joint services operation would be 2-5 services in uniform ( up to 10 depending on if NOAA, Border Patrol, Park Service, TSA and PHS get involved.) 

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I like imagining that the leaders of the nascent rebel alliance (Organa, Mothma, etc.) Would have been too arrogant to accept help from the CIS, even if it meant that the rebellion could have been possibly successful without the destruction of alderaan.

I also think that when the empire was declared, all moral highground was abandoned and the CIS was put down by any means necessary. Their fleet did make it to coruscant after all.

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The last clean up operations (after the Clone wars) of the Imperial Navy and Army ended in 17 BBY, when the Reconquest of the Rim was officialy over. Several Separatist groups and leaders among criminal cartels, independent worlds and warlords were brought to heel.

A lot of military hardware is suddenly floating around, with still millions of individuals dreaming of getting independece (from megacorps, the Empire and whatever) ... now that is a good ground to plant your rebellion.

And it makes a good setting for EotE when everybody has to cope with the changes of power throughout the known galaxy. Lots of opportunities.

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I like imagining that the leaders of the nascent rebel alliance (Organa, Mothma, etc.) Would have been too arrogant to accept help from the CIS, even if it meant that the rebellion could have been possibly successful without the destruction of alderaan.

I also think that when the empire was declared, all moral highground was abandoned and the CIS was put down by any means necessary. Their fleet did make it to coruscant after all.

 

 

Based on the Essential Guide to Warfare Organa didn't want any former CIS members in, bel Iblis felt they should allow the survivors who weren't guilty of war crimes in, and Mothma said they could join if they admitted that the Separatists were in the wrong. (Ironic given that it was the Republic that started the war.) 

 

The last clean up operations (after the Clone wars) of the Imperial Navy and Army ended in 17 BBY, when the Reconquest of the Rim was officialy over. Several Separatist groups and leaders among criminal cartels, independent worlds and warlords were brought to heel. A lot of military hardware is suddenly floating around, with still millions of individuals dreaming of getting independece (from megacorps, the Empire and whatever) ... now that is a good ground to plant your rebellion. And it makes a good setting for EotE when everybody has to cope with the changes of power throughout the known galaxy. Lots of opportunities.

 

True but there were still Separatist remnants active after that. There's never an exact date give for Gizor Deliso's uprising but it could be anywhere from 18 to 12 BBY. Also The guide to warfare mentions that there were still Separatist forces operating independently of the Alliance during the Galactic Civil War. In most cases the Separatist holdouts and the Alliance's forces stayed out of each others way but there was at least one sector< I can't recall which ATM, where the Galactic Civil War was a three way battle between its Imperial Sector fleet and army, its Alliance Sector force, and the surviving Separatist forces in the sector.

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A New Hope says the first victory of the Rebel Alliance is getting the Death Star plans.  I would imagine, even without any of the EU, that they couldn't have existed for too terribly long before that. 

They could have had any number of disastrous failures though. Like the first attack on the Death Star (described in the novel of the same name).

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A New Hope says the first victory of the Rebel Alliance is getting the Death Star plans.  I would imagine, even without any of the EU, that they couldn't have existed for too terribly long before that. 

They could have had any number of disastrous failures though. Like the first attack on the Death Star (described in the novel of the same name).

 

No, they couldn't have. A series of disastrous failures would doom the alliance. Even one prior to a significant victory endangers it.

 

The author of that novel needs to review the effects of morale upon military forces. 

 

Irregulars can often "recover" from even disastrously pyrrhic victories, but significant defeats generally result in fragmentation and dispersal. (This is the secret of religious zealotry - they may die, but as long as the group's force accomplishes some level of victory and has a promise of posthumous reward, they're willing to give it their literal all... because they see that it matters.)

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