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My son attacked my archers with his ripper brutes and rolled one hit and two heroic symbols. With the blood thirst ability we played that he killed all three figures; is this a correct interpretation of the rule?

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If the figure was unwounded at the time of the attack, the heroic symbols would do nothing.

 

The details: You must commit all of your dice before resolving any. At the time you commit the heroic symbols to deal extra damage, the unit is still unwounded, so the requirement for committing heroic symbols to do damage isn't met. That means you can't get the bonus from the heroic symbol from Bloodthirst unless the target is already wounded before the attack initiates.

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Hi.

 

With all due respect, I would disagree with the comment by Mr Budgernaut. 

 

In the reference book page 7, the "Poison" section states that If a unit becomes poisoned during a combat roll, LORE results produced during that roll may be committed to cause one damage each. 

 

This statement suggests that you can commit the HEROIC dice results during the same roll that has produced a STRIKE or CLEAVE (the attacking unit is not supposed to be weak, of course). 

 

And in the reference book page 3, the "Committing Dice" section states that If a player has multiple dice results he can commit, he chooses the order in which he commits them. 

 

I think committing a STRIKE or CLEAVE to cause a damage is also part of committing dice.  Therefore, you can choose to commit a STRIKE first, then commit a HEROIC to take advantage of Bloodthirst to cause another damage.

 

That's how I understand. 

 

Thanks.

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Sorry, Sinyamag,

but Budgernaut was right. Strike or Cleave are no results to commit for Flesh Ripper Brutes (as it's stated in the core rulebook, pag 10, under "dice abilities" you'll see that results that can be considered "committed" are only those that appear on the unit sheet). The only result you can commit is Heroic, which activate the Bllodthirst (and it couldn't be otherwise because there are no other icons related to committing dice on the Unit card).

Reference guide, pag 2, under Combat, details the sequence in which dice results are to be resolved:

 

- step 4: you commit dice

- step 6: suffer damage

 

In the original example, the unit was undamaged before the FRB's attack. This means that when the attacker commits Heroic results, the unit is still undamaged (because step 4 is resolved before step 6), so the Heroic doesn't trigger anything. Then you reach step 6, and resolve as normal the Strike and Cleave results.

 

Additionally, if you look at the reference guide, pag 3, under Committing dice, you read (emphasis mine):

 

A player can only commit dice during step 4 of combat (see “Combat” on page 2); however damage and retreats caused by committing dice are not suffered at this time. All damage and retreats are suffered during steps 5 and 8 of combat, respectively

 

So, even in case the unit were damaged by a die committed during this round, you cannot trigger Bloodthirst neither this time because at the moment Bloodthirst is triggered, the unit is in any case still undamaged.

 

As said, Budgernaut's answer was very well addressed.

 

 

EDIT: terrible grammar, sorry

Edited by Julia

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Viper's Bite is somehow different: there are two results that can be committed both during step 4: the Heroic, triggering the Poison condition, and the Lore, damaging the poisoned units. It's a totally different situation.

 

And if you look at it, it's a clever design to balance this Archery unit with the Daqan counterpart: the first unit can trigger two results in the same attack, while the other can attack twice if unmoved during the round.

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hi, how is every1?

my strong FRBs attacked a riverwatch-rider unit with two remaining figures on a building hex

producing one hit and two heroic symbols

does the buildings combat ability save them from elimination?

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On 8/11/2018 at 4:01 PM, Jaquez said:

hi, how is every1?

my strong FRBs attacked a riverwatch-rider unit with two remaining figures on a building hex

producing one hit and two heroic symbols

does the buildings combat ability save them from elimination?

No, the Riverwatch Riders will be eliminated by the Flesh Ripper Brutes. The heroic symbols will be committed to cause damage and will add to the 1 damage from your cleave or strike result for a total of 3 damage. The building will allow the Riverwatch Riders to ignore 1 damage, but they will still suffer 2 damage and be defeated.

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I beg to differ: "committing" in step 4 only decides what shall be done with each dice-result as well as the order of the effects, so no action is taken at that step yet.   The various damaging effects are then activated in step 6 and if STRIKE or CLEAVE were selected to precede BLOOD THIRST, then BLOOD THIRST causes further damage.

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On 8/14/2018 at 9:36 AM, yuyutsu said:

I beg to differ: "committing" in step 4 only decides what shall be done with each dice-result as well as the order of the effects, so no action is taken at that step yet.   The various damaging effects are then activated in step 6 and if STRIKE or CLEAVE were selected to precede BLOOD THIRST, then BLOOD THIRST causes further damage.

I don't understand which part you disagree with. Are you disagreeing with what I wrote to Jaquez? Or are you disagreeing with the entire interpretation of how Bloodthirsty works? I'm going to assume you disagree with with the interpretation of Bloodthirsty in general.

When you commit a die, the die basically disappears and only the results remain. The Rules Reference says, "After committing a die, the die result is ignored and cannot be used again for the remainder of the combat. ... A player can only commit dice during step 4 of combat; however, damage and retreats are not suffered at this time. All damage and retreats are suffered during steps 5 and 8 of combat, respectively."

Although the damage from the heroic results isn't suffered by the target during step 4, the die must be committed for damage during that step. By time you get to step 6, you don't have a strike and a heroic, you have 2 damage and that damage doesn't remember where it came from. It's just damage at that point. For Bloodthirsty, you commit the die during step 4, so it must become damage during that step (even though the target doesn't suffer it immediately). If the target hasn't suffered damage by the end of step 4, then you can't commit the heroic results to cause damage. 

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So the question is about the nature of what it is that we "commit", prior to the die "disappearing":

 

On page 3, "committing dice", it says: "Many unit abilities or game effects allow a player to commit one or more dice to trigger AN EFFECT".

 

As I understand it, the HEROIC result may commit the BLOODTHIRST effect, rather than the DAMAGE effect, only then the BLOODTHIRST translates into damage, in step 6.

 

The reason I think so, is the clause: "If there are multiple effects that commit dice, the player who rolled the dice chooses the order in which he commits them":  Had the only effects been DAMAGE, RETREAT and LORE, whose order is predetermined (steps 6,8 and 9 respectively), then there would be no order to choose and the above clause would have been meaningless.

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I believe that clause is primarily for the Viper Legion. They can commit a heroic symbol to poison the target. If a unit is poisoned, the attacker can commit lore results to cause damage. In this case, choosing the order in which you commit dice matters. If you commit the heroic symbol to poison first, now the target is poisoned. Now you can commit that lore to cause damage ... but that damage doesn't happen until step 6.

Every ability that requires you to commit dice is resolved during step 4. Some abilities' effects, however, are delayed.

You are correct that the heroic symbol is not committed to cause damage, but to trigger Bloodthirsty. But Bloodthirsty doesn't trigger during step 6; it triggers during step 4 like all other dice-committing abilities. So when you commit that heroic symbol, you immediately activate Bloodthirsty, which says, "If the target has suffered damage, cause 1 damage." During step 4, when you commit that die and invoke Bloodthirsty, you have to check whether the target has suffered damage. If so, add 1 damage to the pool of dmage to be suffered in step 6. If not, nothing happens. The Bloodthirsty effect does not get resolved during step 6 - only the damage caused by the effect is held until step 6.

Blood Sisters have similar timing with Syphon, which commits a heroic symbol to heal the Blood Sisters if the target has suffered damage. They also have Blood Magic which uses a lore symbol to bleed a friendly unit within 2 hexes to cause 1 damage. One of the common complaints about the power of Blood Sisters has always been that they can't use Blood Magic to cause the damage immediately so that they can activate Syphon. That's because Blood Magic's damage is held until step 6, but Syphon fully resolves during step 4.

We can look at other abilities' timing if you want. How about Necromancers? "Influence: Choose a friendly minion unit within 2 hexes of this unit. After this combat, the chosen unit may move up to 1 hex and perform an attack." The choosing part happens immediately, but the extra pseudo-activation doesn't happen until after the combat. Let's say there is a minion 3 hexes behind you. You get countered and are forced to retreat 1 hex. Now, after the combat, that minion is 2 hexes away. Can it move and attack now? No, because it wasn't within 2 hexes when you committed the die and activated the Influence ability. Similar situation: the minion and Necromancers are adjacent to the target. The Necromancers unit gets countered and forced to retreat 3 hexes. Now the minion is beyond 2 hexes. Can it still attack? Yes, because it was chosen during step 4 of combat when the criterion was met, so it will move and attack even if the Necromancer moves beyond range before Influence finishes resolving.

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I am afraid that I am unfamiliar with Blood-sisters, Blood-magic and Necormancers as I just bought and started playing the basic set.   Still, if an ability says "after this combat" then that is unambiguously clear.

 

Now if an ability/effect has an 'IF' in it, then it can always be chosen because the action can always be fulfilled - at worst, nothing will happen.

 

So nothing should prevent a player from committing an heroic dice at stage 4 to "heal the Blood Sisters if the target has suffered damage": I don't know whether the extended rules/cards specify WHEN that healing takes place, but whenever that is, that's when the blood-sisters are to be healed IF the target suffered damage, as well as when nothing is to happen if the target has not suffered damage.

 

In the case of the Necromancer, there is no 'IF' in the action and the grammar seems to speak of two different times, so I think that the intent is indeed to choose the unit earlier as you stated.  The instruction is:

"Influence: Choose a friendly minion unit within 2 hexes of this unit. After this combat, the chosen unit may move up to 1 hex and perform an attack."

 

rather than:

 

"Influence: After this combat, choose a friendly minion unit within 2 hexes of this unit and it may move up to 1 hex and perform an attack."

 

This seems to be deliberate and further, because there is no 'IF', that action might be impossible - unlike BLOODTHIRSTY and BLOOD-SISTERS, where the action (IF X then Y) is always possible.

 

As for "Blood magic", I would first need to read the exact text and also whether there are any related extended instructions.

 

In summary, my view is that all actions of a type occur at the same step - both conditional and unconditional: damage at stage 6, retreat at stage 8, lore at stage 9 and healing... I am not sure when, perhaps there is extra information in the extension packs?

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Well, let's just keep the discussion to the core set, then (though the rules sheets for all expansions are on FFG's website and every unit card is showcased in at least one BattleLore news article).

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1115528/bloodthirsty-trigger

The same question you are asking was asked on boardgamegeek and the same answer I gave you was given by Scott Lewis, one of the playtesters. I was also a playtester for later expansions. The ruling we have both given is how we came to understand the rules from the developers. Do I think their intent could be more clear in the rules? Yes. There are quite a few other inconsitencies in this game that I wish could be cleaned up, too. But what we do have is a long precedent (before the game even released in 2013) of how Bloodthirsty is supposed to work. You must check for damage suffered during step 4. You cannot wait until step 6.

 

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Thank you for pointing me to the Boardgamegeek website: there is so much helpful material there which I am now sifting through and some of my other questions were answered there.   If any are left, I will ask them here.

 

So since Scott Lewis is a playtester who had contact with the developers, I accept his authority in the matter of BLOODTHIRSTY.

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1 hour ago, yuyutsu said:

So since Scott Lewis is a playtester who had contact with the developers, I accept his authority in the matter of BLOODTHIRSTY.

But my contact with the developers doesn't count? ?

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Just now, Budgernaut said:

But my contact with the developers doesn't count? ?

Of course it does, but that, I understand, was about expansions whereas Scott must have been discussing core issues with them...

 

But here is your chance to better Scott on a core issue because I meanwhile encountered a question where I disagree with Scott:

 

Q: "Here's an Unstoppable question -- the last game I played, it was one unit against another unit. My two Obscenes were destroyed from an adjacent attack by some archers. I then played the Unstoppable card, which destroyed the archers. No one is left on the battlefield. Is there a winner?"

Scott Lewis: "Hmm, that's a good question. I would either call that a draw, or give it to Daqan as their destruction of Uthuk happened "first" (it was just delayed to do the Unstoppable attack)."

 

... I would say the opposite: the Daqan archers were destroyed BEFORE step 6 and the Uthuk obscenes where only destroyed in step 6, hence this would be an Uthuk win - what do you think?

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Well that is a tough one, and I do not believe there is any official ruling on this. Usually we would submit a rules question for this, but I don't believe they are answering rules questions anymore for BattleLore.

 I can see the arguments for all 3 scenarios: Daqan win, draw, or Uthuk win. The rules say, "Alternatively, a player wins the game if all of his opponent's units have been eliminated. This happens immediately, regardless of the number of victory points each player has and overrides all other victory conditions." The "immediately" in the second sentence makes me lean toward an Uthuk win, as you interpret it. Unstoppable clearly says, "before" that unit is eliminated, perform a counter, so by time we get to step 6 of the counter, there are no more opposing units. What does it mean to be eliminated? "When the final figure in a unit is removed, that unit is eleminated." By a strict reading of the rules, it would be an Uthuk win because the last figure hasn't yet been removed from the table during step 7-9 of its counter, but the Yeoman Archers' has.

Personally, I would want to call it a draw. You can't get much closer than everyone dying during the same combat. The Obscenes had to have suffered enough damage to be eliminated in order to play Unstoppable, and since you cannot play two lore cards in a turn (thinking of Cannibalize here), there is nothing that can heal them at that point. It feels kinda bad that this 2-point lore card can steel the win. And as a personal preference, I ennoy draws.

But none of this personal sentiment is based on rules. The rules say "immediately" so I don't think you can rule anything other than an Uthuk win. Yes, it is a win from a 2-point lore card, but every faction has a 2-point lore card that can gain them a victory point, too, and that can feel like a stolen win in much the same way. 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I understand where Ignipes is coming from. He thinks that "after the move step" means it must happend during the attack step, but I understand that this is only true for Onslaught because there is a specific rules clarification for it in the rules reference. Otherwise, I do believe that timing windows exist in this game. For example, move step -> after move step -> before attack step -> attack step. Part of that belief comes from the fact that many FFG games use the same principles. If Onslaught didn't have that clarification, I would have agreed with Scott that the active player chooses.

Edited by Budgernaut

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