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adamdynris

Royal Entourage and cancel

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If I trigger response on "Royal Entourage" from my hand after I play a Lord and my opponent cancel it with "He calls it thinking".

 

My "Royal Entourage" go to my discard pile. Right?

 

I can't trigger his response again from my discard pile in the same response. Right?

 

Thanks

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No, if the response is cancelled, they would stay in your hand. But you are correct that you wouldn't be able to trigger them again for the same response window. You'd need to play another Lord or Lady to try their response again.

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No, if the response is cancelled, they would stay in your hand. But you are correct that you wouldn't be able to trigger them again for the same response window. You'd need to play another Lord or Lady to try their response again.

 

You are correct except that you can trigger them again from your hand because it triggers from out of play.  A card that triggers from out of play that is subsequently canceled is considered a new card for all intents and purposes unless it has a built-in limit(like "Limit 1 time per phase."). 

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If I have 3 "Royal Entourage" in hand or discard, I can trigger them 3. My opponent can play "He calls it thinking" but at the final my 3 Royal Entourage will be in play!

Edited by adamdynris

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No, if the response is cancelled, they would stay in your hand. But you are correct that you wouldn't be able to trigger them again for the same response window. You'd need to play another Lord or Lady to try their response again.

 

You are correct except that you can trigger them again from your hand because it triggers from out of play.  A card that triggers from out of play that is subsequently canceled is considered a new card for all intents and purposes unless it has a built-in limit(like "Limit 1 time per phase."). 

 

 

I hadn't realized that. Thanks for the correction.

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One thing that has come to light recently is that using the term "triggered from out of play" can lead to a misunderstanding. Royal Entourage can be continuously triggered from hand after being canceled because it is being triggered from an area that is "unknown to the game." If Royal Entourage is triggered from the discard pile and gets canceled, it CANNOT be triggered again because it is coming from a "known" area (the discard pile is public knowledge even though it is out of play).

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Really? Where did that come from? It is inconsistent with past rulings.

If I have only one card in hand, Royal Entourage, trigger it and have it canceled. Can I trigger it again or not? It's known information now for all practical purposes. What if I'm playing with my hand revealed? Does it become public information, thus changing the rules as applied to the hand?

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Hey - I'm with you - it's how I'd always thought it was ruled. I asked Damon because I was contradicted on CGDB. Here is his response:

 

The "out of play" is most often cited as why a card can trigger its response multiple times to the same trigger, but that is not quite the right reasoning. Because a card in a player's hand, top of the deck, or in Shadows is considered unknown the game assumes that any copy triggered from there is a new version. So while all three of those areas are out of play, it is not that part that allows for the multiple triggers.
 
Because the discard pile is a known set responses from it can only be triggered once per trigger.
 
Outwit, any other plots that use responses, and agendas while out of play are known sets so could only respond once per trigger.
 
I hope that helps.

 

 

Khudzlin is the one who challenged the ruling I'd given on that board and his logic was that plots are out of play and agendas are out of play... if "out of play" is the only condition, why do those fall under the "one response per trigger" rule. I thought he had a valid point, so I submitted the question to FFG and the above is what I received.
Edited by doulos2k

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Hmm. I don't quite buy it. Plots and Agendas are bad examples because, by the very definition of their card types, they interact as if "in play" despite not technically being such. You need this exception based on card type, otherwise the normal "cards that are not in play do not interact with cards that are in play unless they specifically say so" rule should apply. If that interaction is based on "known information" rather than card type, shouldn't a location in your discard pile that says "while it is summer, your characters get +1 STR" be active? And if not, why does that text on a plot card interact with the game? Is it somehow "less out of play" than cards in the discard pile?

I think I'll have to ask Damon about this. Sounds like an explanation for one situation that didn't consider the full ramifications.

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It wouldn't be the first time FFG made rulings while not considering all the ramifications. On the other hand, "hidden" vs "visible" makes as much sense as "in play" vs "out of play". Even more, even if we have to make an exception to 3.14 going like "despite being out of play, agenda and plot cards are actionable and can affect cards in play". Agendas and plots wouldn't work at all without such an exception (or considering they are in play for some purposes but not others), so it's a reasonable one to make (based on a fundamental assumption that "the game works").

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I don't agree with that analysis. There is no "exception" to 3.14 for agendas and plots because the "unless the card specifically says otherwise" part of 3.14 is inherent in the card type (just like it is for event cards). It's this difference between how "hidden" and "revealed" out-of-play cards - which is not referred to or derivable from the rules as written (like, at all) - that seems like an exception.

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Agendas and plots being actionable and able to affect cards in play is written nowhere in the rules or FAQ either. However, players (rightly) just assume they do, because otherwise, they just don't work.

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A) Yes, exactly. Hence the "inherent in the card type."

 

B) Disagree that it is not written in the rules that plots and agendas are actionable. They are at least as actionable as event cards by their basic definitions:

 

Events: "Events are played from your hand for their text effect."

Plots: "These cards...represent your short-term strategies. At the beginning of each round each player selects a single plot card from his or her deck to use for the round."

Agendas: "Before you start the game, you may choose a single agenda and place it beside your House card to gain its benefits (and drawbacks) for the entire game."

 

"Played," "use," and "gain" are all words that tell you the cards are actionable. So just like events, the basic definition of "Plot" and "Agenda" tells you they are actionable.

 

What you don't have anywhere is similar rules text telling you that cards in the discard or dead pile are generally actionable, although we are told that they might be actionable based on individual text. As such, equating the actionability of cards in the discard and dead piles to plots and agendas, even so far as limits are concerned, based on their similarity as "known sets" is a poor comparison at best, and faulty logic at worst. 

 

If you are going to explain the limitation on triggering the Response a second time in terms of "known sets," you run into problems when the hidden information becomes "known" through attempts to use it - hence my question about why you cannot trigger the Royal Entourage in your discard pile twice, but you can trigger the Royal Entourage that is the only card in your hand twice. 

 

Now, I'm not saying that Damon shouldn't have made the ruling or that the outcome isn't a good one. What I am saying is that the explanations and justification for it is bad and potentially leads to a number of inconsistencies that make things more confusing than they already are in these "what happens when I cancel a 'put into play' effect?" situations.

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Sorry but I am confused by the various answers

 

You are correct except that you can trigger them again from your hand because it triggers from out of play.  A card that triggers from out of play that is subsequently canceled is considered a new card for all intents and purposes unless it has a built-in limit(like "Limit 1 time per phase."). 

 

1) If I have Royal Entourage in my hand and play a lord or lady, I can put the R-E into play and though it can be cancelled I can just trigger the response again?

 

2) What if I have 3 copies of R-E in hand and play a lord or lady ... ignoring the cancel option, can I put all 3 copies into play by triggering the response on each one?

 

If I can do the first option but not the second option, what is the difference?

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You can do the second. And Damon's answer is that you can do the first. The difference would be that each Royal Entourage has a separate response, just like having multiple copies of an event card in your hand.

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The confusing part is that while your #1 is correct, if the RE was in your discard pile again, the ruling says that you wouldn't be able to just trigger it again after a cancel.

 

Luckily, this doesn't come up too often because there aren't a lot of effects that can cancel RE when triggered from your hand or discard pile. (And no, I don't need a list of all the ways that it can happen - although I'm sure someone will provide one....)

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