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TIE Defender: White 4 K-Turn Rumor

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I pointed out that every expansion already has a paper insert.

Ahh I see what you're saying. Sure they could do that, but again that would be a departure from the way they do it now. They publish the rules on the insert for big ships and on cards for the small ships.

It seems unlikely that they'd change that method now, not without a fairly good reason to do.

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but they've done it multiple times before so there appears to be a distinct possibility.

That's just it though. They haven't done it ever before. They've included a rules insert for large ships, or rule card(s) for smaller ships. So there's really no reason to assume they'd change their SOP at this point.

The fact that the TD is the only ship that can do this maneuver now doesn't really matter either. They included Ion rules with Y-Wings when they were only ship that could cause an Ion effect. Anything that the TD can do may very well show up on another ship down the road.

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I pointed out that every expansion already has a paper insert.

Ahh I see what you're saying. Sure they could do that, but again that would be a departure from the way they do it now. They publish the rules on the insert for big ships and on cards for the small ships.

It seems unlikely that they'd change that method now, not without a fairly good reason to do.

 

I understand that notion. I was just pointing it out as a possibility.

 

Personally, when I say the defender announcement and the new maneuver, but no rules card, my immediate thought went to the Lambda and it's 0 maneuver since its the only other ship with a unique maneuver.

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highly unlikely as it will not be cost saving.. that kind of change isn't such a small thing, it has been said before.. why you keep saying it is beyond me, as someone that has worked in manufacturing for many years this idea is impractical to say the least.. they would stay to their typical form here. the changes to the production line and packaging alone makes it a bad idea.

Edited by oneway

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Have they ever?  I know that insert has the maneuver chart for each ship listed on it, but I don't remember ever seeing one with additional rules...

They have. With the big ships they included changes to the rules on the paper insert. This is also where we find the only other unique maneuver in the game with the zero move for the Lambda.

 

highly unlikely as it will not be cost saving.. that kind of change isn't such a small thing, it has been said before.. why you keep saying it is beyond me, as someone that has worked in manufacturing for many years this idea is impractical to say the least.. they would stay to their typical form here. the changes to the production line and packaging alone makes it a bad idea.

As stated before I am in no way insinuating that the change their productions process. I was just pointing out that if FFG wanted to they could include rules on the paper insert that comes with every ship. The same insert that is unique to every ship since they already include the printed maneuvers for easy reference. An nice paragraph right there could easily cover the new maneuver. No new packaging or production. Just the inclusion of a text box.

Edited by Janson

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but that is a change to their process.. .. 

They are creating a new mini. The paper insert is unique to each ship and created by a graphic designer. If they want to put a rule there, they can. It's not that unreasonable.

 

But with the big ships, the included rulebooks with the big ship rules, the scenario, etc, are kind of a whole different beast than the paper insert in the back of the small minis...

It was just used to show they have done it before so maybe they could do it again. The rules changes themselves were very simple and took little to no space.

 

I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

Edited by Janson

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Just at the point costing level the Defender would need something pretty special to make sense.  30pt PS1 with 1 more hull and 1 more attack than a tie advanced?  and no evade?  That dial is going to need to have white kturns or an "evasive" maneuver to be worth those points.

This confuses me, because I thought I double-tapped this argument the first time it came around.

 

Give a tie advanced boost instead of evade, a shield upgrade, and a Heavy HLC (I know it can't actually take it) and you're at 31pts.  Take away it starting at PS 2 and you're exactly at 30pts.  Not an exact comparison but pretty darn close (4 dice at 2 ranges with no agility buff at range 3> than 4 dice at range 1).  Wisdom on this forum has cited the Advanced at 2pts too high... while an interceptor dial might make up 1 of that you're still looking at a wonky ship price.

You're completely right. I mean, all you have to do is take a Rookie Pilot, give it Push the Limit, Expert Handling, R2-F2, and a Hull Upgrade, plus make it immune to stress, and you have a TIE Defender! And since a Rookie Pilot with those modifications and 1 less pilot skill would cost 31 points, the TIE Defender is clearly… um, wait a minute here.

Okay, I guess I picked the wrong ship for a starting point. Let's take a Prototype Pilot, and add always-on, action-free Expose plus a Stealth Device, plus a Hull Upgrade and a Shield Upgrade. That gives us a cost of 31, which means the Defender is… okay, that example doesn't do it either. Gosh, what am I doing wrong?

Here's the thing: the only people who have any idea whether the Defender is too expensive, not expensive enough, or just right work for FFG in some capacity and know a lot more about the ship than we do right now. Comparing it to the TIE Advanced requires asserting that you know exactly how much it ought to cost for a ship to go from 2 Attack to 3 Attack; comparing it to the Interceptor requires the claim that you know exactly what happens to game balance when you more than double the HP durability of a ship with 3 Agility; comparing it to an X-wing (which no one is doing, but bear with me) requires pretending you understand perfectly what the right cost adjustment is when you simultaneously increase Agility and hit points.

And particularly given the extra uncertainty introduced by the discussion of its dial, talking about how poor the Defender's value looks compared to its cost just sounds improbably hyperbolic.

 

(EDIT: Fixed "hp" when I meant "durability"…)

You didn't. Until we see a dial it will keep happening. Unless that dial is truly special, and it's new maneuver special, it's a lot of points for not a lot.

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but that is a change to their process.. ..

They are creating a new mini. The paper insert is unique to each ship and created by a graphic designer. If they want to put a rule there, they can. It's not that unreasonable.

But with the big ships, the included rulebooks with the big ship rules, the scenario, etc, are kind of a whole different beast than the paper insert in the back of the small minis...

It was just used to show they have done it before so maybe they could do it again. The rules changes themselves were very simple and took little to no space.

I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

It's not just a mattermof disagreeing with you, its a practicality thing.. and a cost thing. Plus there are no rules on the other inserts, so everyone is going to throw it away as usual. Then complain about no rules addendum for their new whacky move.. plus they only have so much space in the packaging. Which means no room for a big bulky rules page .. even half the size of the ones that came with the big ships.. which, by the way, have a large area to place those rules pamphlets in. Plus, if they incur more cost then they will pass that on to us... the consumer... they can't just add stuff in and eat the cost.. Edited by oneway

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Creating a new mini, yes. NOT creating new packaging. Considering how worthless many already think the paper insert is in the fighters (I know I don't keep mine), it would be a bad, bad, bad idea to add KEY rules info on that sheet. The Large ships have different packaging, and thus different restrictions on what FFG can include.

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but that is a change to their process.. .. 

They are creating a new mini. The paper insert is unique to each ship and created by a graphic designer. If they want to put a rule there, they can. It's not that unreasonable.

 

But with the big ships, the included rulebooks with the big ship rules, the scenario, etc, are kind of a whole different beast than the paper insert in the back of the small minis...

It was just used to show they have done it before so maybe they could do it again. The rules changes themselves were very simple and took little to no space.

 

I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

 

But you haven't shown "they have done it before."  As I just pointed out, and as numerous others have explained, the paper inserts that come in the small base mini packaging have not ever included new game rules.  The large rule/scenario inserts that come with the large based ships are very different.

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but that is a change to their process.. ..

They are creating a new mini. The paper insert is unique to each ship and created by a graphic designer. If they want to put a rule there, they can. It's not that unreasonable.

But with the big ships, the included rulebooks with the big ship rules, the scenario, etc, are kind of a whole different beast than the paper insert in the back of the small minis...

It was just used to show they have done it before so maybe they could do it again. The rules changes themselves were very simple and took little to no space.

I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

It's not just a mattermof disagreeing with you, its a practicality thing.. and a cost thing. Plus there are no rules on the other inserts, so everyone is going to throw it away as usual. Then complain about no rules addendum for their new whacky move.. plus they only have so much space in the packaging. Which means no room for a big bulky rules page .. even half the size of the ones that came with the big ships.. which, by the way, have a large area to place those rules pamphlets in. Plus, if they incur more cost then they will pass that on to us... the consumer... they can't just add stuff in and eat the cost..

 

I don;t think what people do with the inserts really impacts what FFG does. Think of it this way. FFG goes to the trouble of including a nice graph showing the flight moves. They probably don't assume/care that people throw them away. They just do. We don;t know the reasoning behind it. The rules for the move on the Lambda were not that big at all.

 

Imagine in this instance that right above the move graph that already comes in all small ships they have this sentence for the Defender (which uses a rule possibility discussed earlier just as an example): Yellow maneuver: When performing a yellow maneuver perform a free evade action. 

 

No huge cost. No big pamphlet. Nothing bulky. It wouldn't be that different at all from the other small ships. We are having conjectural disagreement over the possibility of changing a sheet of paper, about a company that changed the sheet of paper once already when they released a new second run, the planet Yavin for X-Wings. I just don't see adding a sentence rule as impossible.

 

 

 

but that is a change to their process.. .. 

They are creating a new mini. The paper insert is unique to each ship and created by a graphic designer. If they want to put a rule there, they can. It's not that unreasonable.

 

But with the big ships, the included rulebooks with the big ship rules, the scenario, etc, are kind of a whole different beast than the paper insert in the back of the small minis...

It was just used to show they have done it before so maybe they could do it again. The rules changes themselves were very simple and took little to no space.

 

I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

 

But you haven't shown "they have done it before."  As I just pointed out, and as numerous others have explained, the paper inserts that come in the small base mini packaging have not ever included new game rules.  The large rule/scenario inserts that come with the large based ships are very different.

 

The issue is that you (and others) are choosing a specific way to group the small ships and the big ships. I looked at them mainly from the rules perspective and noticed that simple rules tend not to get a card such as Big Ship ion markers or the Lambda zero maneuver. In reality we don't know which one is correct or how FFG does it. BUT as of right now the only other unique maneuver in the game was put on a paper insert; the Lambda Shuttle zero maneuver.

 

-Edit- When I refer to "you (and others) are choosing" it sounds a little too accusatory. I meant simply that we are recognizing aspects in a different way.

Edited by Janson

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I understand that people may not agree, but as a possibility I would't rule it out. At the very least, its a glimmer of hope to the Defender lovers out there because that means the maneuver could be anything. I've now had the same conversation twice on this thread about toys. There's a glitch in the matrix. :)

But why do the "Defender lovers" need to believe there will be "yellow" maneuvers, or maneuvers using multiple templates, or something else really complex? You seem to have been implying for a while that if the thread topic turned out to be true, it would be some kind of letdown. Why?

Imagine in this instance that right above the move graph that already comes in all small ships they have this sentence for the Defender (which uses a rule possibility discussed earlier just as an example): Yellow maneuver: When performing a yellow maneuver perform a free evade action. 

 

No huge cost. No big pamphlet. Nothing bulky. It wouldn't be that different at all from the other small ships. We are having conjectural disagreement over the possibility of changing a sheet of paper, about a company that changed the sheet of paper once already when they released a new second run, the planet Yavin for X-Wings. I just don't see adding a sentence rule as impossible.

This is exactly the problem, though. It's not that it's impossible, it's that that's not how they've introduced any other new rule. They've trained us, so so speak, to look for new rules in a particular place (two places, actually); changing that would be bad design, if nothing else.

The issue is that you (and others) are choosing a specific way to group the small ships and the big ships. I looked at them mainly from the rules perspective and noticed that simple rules tend not to get a card such as Big Ship ion markers or the Lambda zero maneuver. In reality we don't know which one is correct or how FFG does it. BUT as of right now the only other unique maneuver in the game was put on a paper insert; the Lambda Shuttle zero maneuver.

Right, but you're confusing the rules pamphlet that's been released with each of the large ships with the cardstock backing that's released with every fighter. We've never seen rules released on the cardstock backing before, so why would you expect to see them there for this release?

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Are you really implying that the company is going to add cost to a product and not care what the consumer does with it.. seriously, I think you are simply uninformed as to practical manufacturing practices...

I dont know if I'm the only one that has clipped and kept the move diagrams, and the product insert which tells you what comes with each package. I'm not the average miniatures gamer either. Once I knew there was nothing of great importance with the inserts I started throwing them out. I'm sure FFG isn't going to invest in new moves and rules, only to put their only rules info on something that gets thrown away, that's spectacularly stupid, and would generate lots of disgruntled consumers...

Edited by oneway

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******* agreed iam not here to read about pakaging how much money it costs or not and such things iam here to chat with people that think over the defender what it will have and what not and not uh look a new rule card but it wasnt shown on the picture maybe its lbalbalbalblalblalvb -.-

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FFG follows a pattern, they preview the product, and show everything that is coming out with a given ship. Showing an image of all the parts and bits, so this leads many of us to surmise there are no new templates, or rules addendums, as those are not shown.

It goes then, to show that the new maneuver doesn't require either a new template, or new rules. This leads me to believe the new maneuver will be simple to understand and easy to implement in the game, such as a green 3 hard turn, a 1 K turn, a 4 or 3 white K turn... something along these lines... not that I agree with all of them, but I am intrigued by some, and will be disappointed by some.

Edited by oneway

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