Thalin and Expecting Mischief

[Mndela 422]

At the starting of the quest of a game, there was Thalin commited and it was played Expecting Mischief:

 

  

 

The first card revealed was an enemy with only 1hp.

 

The question is: is valid deal the damage by Thalin text and keep Expecting Mischief for next cards?

[alogos 171]

Nop, the first is the first

[Nerdmeister 144]

I agree with alogos but rather by a longer line of thought.

Whenever 2 or more effects share a trigger it is usually up to the first player to decided which triggers first. Since these share a trigger the first player could arguably designate Thalin´s effect to trigger; the enemy thus removed, expecting mischief has no legal target to damage. However if another enemy is revealed during staging, expecting mischief is not eligible to trigger because that enemy is not "the first enemy revealed".

[-nebur- 11]

This is clear...but what is with the Traps + Thalin/Mischief ?

 

"If unattached, attach Poisoned Stakes to the next eligible enemy that enters the staging area."

 

They include the phrase "next eligible enemy" and if we kill some with Thalin/Mischief, they are not eligible anymore...

Without any doubt, isn't it?

[Nerdmeister 144]

This is clear...but what is with the Traps + Thalin/Mischief ?

 

"If unattached, attach Poisoned Stakes to the next eligible enemy that enters the staging area."

 

They include the phrase "next eligible enemy" and if we kill some with Thalin/Mischief, they are not eligible anymore...

Without any doubt, isn't it?

Hmm good question. There is a recent ruling, I believe, that says a card has entered play as soon as it is revealed (in regards to immune to player card effects) but I don´t think that means they have necessarily entered the staging area yet. Arguably Thalin´s ability would trigger before the trap as he triggers "as it is revealed" whereas the trap awaits the enemy to "enter the staging area".

This approach sounds logical to me but if anyone has some insights I´d be happy to hear about it.

[alogos 171]

Yeah, there is more than one official answer where it is said that cards while being revealed are in play but not yet in the staging area so that the enemy could die before reaching staging area.

[Tracker1 317]

Why is expecting Mischief an action?

I have ran into some weird timing issues with EM and Thalin. Lets say a 3 hp enemy with a when revealed and Surge enters the staging area. Thailin immediately deals one damage. When revealed should trigger before an action can be triggered and so should surge before the enemy is destroyed the enemy is destroyed. Now if EM were a response then it would destroy the enemy before When Revealed but Surge would still go off. If it were a passive effect like Thailin then it would destroy the enemy before when revealed and surge.

This has been confusing to me, can someone who knows how this is played number the correct steps to play this correctly, since I have been leaning towards the more difficult in interpretation, which means that if a an attachment like Ranger spikes was in the staging area it would attach, and then the enemy is destroyed, and surge will still trigger.

Thanks.

[Nerdmeister 144]

Expecting Mischief is an action only insofar that it must be played from your hand before the staging step. Once it has been played, it´s ability becomes a passive ability (very much similar to Thalin´s).

If EM was a reaction ability then the card would have to specify which effect triggers that reaction. In this case it would probably be "after an enemy is revealed..." which would place it after Thalin´s ability (and any surge effects), not before. That wording should still trigger before it is added to the staging area (and any traps waiting there) though.

[Tracker1 317]

Okay, i see how it works. EM is played in the action window during the quest phase before encounter cards are revealed. At this point it is working like Thalin's passive ability, because the action was already triggered prior to the enemy being revelaed.

[leptokurt 242]

I think that if Thalin's ability triggers before any surge effects, it should also trigger before a trap can be attached.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

maybe falls under the umbrella of "simultaneous effect timing?" in which case you would choose the order to resolve the effects, and the trap could stick around if there is no eligible enemy left in play after resolving Thalin and Expecting Mischief... but, dunno.  I feel like we have heard a ruling to the opposite effect, but it's a vague recollection...

[Noccus 324]

Question is, do encounter cards when drawn firstly get put into the staging area, and then trigger their effects?

Or, do they 1st trigger effects and then get put into the staging area?

The answer to this would clarify things, as we know where Thalin & EM do their thing.

[Nerdmeister 144]

Not that I can remember it explicitly stated anywhere but the wording "reveal and add it to the staging area" which is a fairly common used phrase on some encounter cards, suggests to me that it is added after resolving keywords and when-revealed abilities.

[Noccus 324]

Ok if so, then the traps played in the staging area would not trigger & attach.

As the encounter cards would be destroyed before they hit the staging area.

This due to the triggering of Thalin & EM before the encounter cards effects.

[leptokurt 242]

Not that I can remember it explicitly stated anywhere but the wording "reveal and add it to the staging area" which is a fairly common used phrase on some encounter cards, suggests to me that it is added after resolving keywords and when-revealed abilities.

But sometimes they only use the wording "reveal" which Caleb confirmed to be the same as "reveal and add..." - so it's technically happening at the same time.

 

Thalin's ability is a special case because it isn't a response. We had the same discussion about Thalin and Eastern Crows' "surge" effect which led to an entry in the FAQ that Thalin's ability comes first. So it should also trigger before any "response" or "when revealed" effect takes place.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

but there's also this in the FAQ, saying that enemies resolve their 'when reveal' effects before they are added to the staging area:

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its

“when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging

area?

A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving

their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an

attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in

the staging area or engaged with the defending player

unless a card effect says it is.

 

 

The bit about 'reveal and add' being the same as 'reveal' is just saying that whenever a card is revealed, it will also be added... but not meant to say that this is happening at the same time, it looks like.

[leptokurt 242]

 

but there's also this in the FAQ, saying that enemies resolve their 'when reveal' effects before they are added to the staging area:

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its

“when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging

area?

A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving

their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an

attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in

the staging area or engaged with the defending player

unless a card effect says it is.

 

 

The bit about 'reveal and add' being the same as 'reveal' is just saying that whenever a card is revealed, it will also be added... but not meant to say that this is happening at the same time, it looks like.

 

Ok, that's cool.

 

Combine this with the FAQ:

 

Thalin CORE 6

When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter

deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or

“When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

 

 

So if the enemy never entered the staging area, a trap cannnot trigger its effect. Right?

 

The time sequence would look like this:

 

Thalin's ability  -->  "when revealed" + keyword effects  -->  adding enemy to the staging area

[Noccus 324]

but there's also this in the FAQ, saying that enemies resolve their 'when reveal' effects before they are added to the staging area:

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its

“when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging

area?

A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving

their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an

attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in

the staging area or engaged with the defending player

unless a card effect says it is.

 

 

The bit about 'reveal and add' being the same as 'reveal' is just saying that whenever a card is revealed, it will also be added... but not meant to say that this is happening at the same time, it looks like.

Ok, that's cool.

 

Combine this with the FAQ:

 

Thalin CORE 6

When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter

deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or

“When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card.

So if the enemy never entered the staging area, a trap cannnot trigger its effect. Right?

 

The time sequence would look like this:

 

Thalin's ability  -->  "when revealed" + keyword effects  -->  adding enemy to the staging area

This seems to be the case. I also think the traps do not trigger.

[Mndela 422]

 

 

 

Thalin's ability  -->  "when revealed" + keyword effects  -->  adding enemy to the staging area

 

 

And Unexpected Mischief, is the same?

[Noccus 324]

Yup, expecting mischief works the same as thalin's ability.

[cmabr002 292]

Reviving this topic because I am confused. 

 

Alogos said:

Yeah, there is more than one official answer where it is said that cards while being revealed are in play but not yet in the staging area so that the enemy could die before reaching staging area.

 

And then there is Haradrim Elite:

 

Forced: When Haradrim Elite enters play, it makes an immediate attack from the staging area against the first player.

 

1. Thalin + Expecting Mischief are active

2.  Haradrim Elite is the top card of the encounter deck and you begin the staging step.

 

According to alogos, the enemy is in play while being revealed but which effects trigger first (Thalin, Expecting Mischief, Haradrim Elite's "enter play effect)? 

 

Aren't all these effects considered passive in this case?  If they are all considered passive then wouldn't all the effects be simultaneous and thus the players could choose to resolve them in the order they wanted?  If that is true, couldn't you resolve Haradrim Elite's passive effect first and put it in the staging area (since that's what its forced effect does) so that a trap attaches to it before the damage is applied by Thalin and Expecting Mischief thus defeating it and removing it and the attachment from play?

 

Second question: If you can indeed resolve the Haradrim Elite's ability first, would that also mean you would deal it a shadow card before the damage is dealt by Thalin and Expecting Mischief because the full effect from Haradrim Elite initiates an attack?

 

Third question: If you do deal it a shadow card, does this mean after the following passive effects resolve from Thalin and Expecting Mischief there is actually a newly created action window because the attack was started (step 6.1.2 in kaybee's action window thing) or is the attack from the enemy immediately canceled after it is killed and then you continue with the staging step (if appropriate).

 

EDIT: I think I found the answer to why Expecting Mischief and Thalin come first but I'm not sure why a Forced effect can never be a passive effect (it seems like it is passive in Haradrim Elite's case).

 

(1.37) Timing of effect resolution
When resolving multiple effects with a shared condition, players should use this order of resolution: passive abilities first, Forced effects second, Response actions third. When determining the order of effect resolution among abilities within those categories, players should first resolve abilities that use the word “when” and then resolve abilities with the word “after”.

Edited July 23, 2015 by cmabr002

[alogos 171]

Forced effect are not passive because passive effect are defined as effect without any keywords. So if start with "Forced:", it's surely not a passive.

[DukeWellington 312]

Agreed. I would add that when a passive effect is "defined" as a non-keyword effect that is according to the rules of the game. In natural language a Forced effect is still a passive effect, just not according to the rules, which is what matters in this case.