Embrace progress! And stop acting like old nags...

[Embrace progress! And stop acting like old nags...]

I want Descent Legends to be THE Game. I really do.  I want this to be the game that puts FFG at the top of the mountain.  I loved Descent 2E and have a decent size collection. I am not "one of those people who will hate the game no matter what. " I was a big fan of of 2E,  MoM, and Star Wars IA. I want to be supportive of FFG, because when those games were in production, I believe it was the premier game company.

That being said, I am somewhat disappointed with what we've been shown of Descent Legends. I can only go by what I've seen so far. I am not particularly fond of an app dependent game. I can see technology for managing stats ect...but after a certain point it- either make it a video game or don't. I wouldn't mind if there was an option to it such as RtL app. It made the game more versatile. It's possible that this unreleased app  knocks my socks off with something unexpected...but I don't see how.

I don't want any of the people who work on these games to lose their job . I really don't think the art is improvement over 2E at all. It is strikingly reminiscent of the 90s games Monkey Island, and King's Quest VII. I like the idea of 3D tiles, as I have made my 3D objects for 2E. The 3D tiles still do not make it look better than the previous versions. This is my opinion, but I don't think I am in a minority. It's interesting to make the new terrain interractive-I don't think it's justification for making the game less visually appealing. I don't think that was their goal.

Board games are certainly getting more costly. If you make a game that retails for $175, you had better justify it with some serious game play.

From the demo video, it really does seem like the designers really want to put effort to make certain aspects of the game better. I understand it's not 3rd edition. I will do my best to be objective but I don't really understand the logic: The first two editions were games MANY people enjoyed. Instead of improving the aspects of the game people enjoyed...they are redesigning a game in the hopes of making it better. I am unsure of the wisdom in this- and I am not alone.

I really don't understand the logic of discontinuing games people already enjoy in an effort to make new games related to games people enjoy. The best board games are timeless. (Chess, monopoly, Heroquest, ect.)

If FFG follows through and releases the game admits the complaints- there will be a lot of banking on the gameplay.  Something will have to make it outshine some of the "cons" mentioned here. I am not writing off buying the game- but that's some serious hopefulness.

I, for one, will take a wait and see attitude. Regardless of how this product does, I really hope for the future of the original Descent/Terrinoth lines. They were great, and I am happy to have played them.

 

[What would you like to see from an actually 3rd edition?]

One of the reasons why I originally purchased Descent 2E because I thought it would look good on the table. I loved the tiles, miniatures, and tokens. What kept me interested was the game play and the expandability. I also love terrain. I have 3d doors, treasure chests, barrels, etc. I often found myself placing an objective token under them, because it made them stand out more. According to FFG they are planning to incorperate more 3D game pieces. This would be one of the changes I would be interested in. At the same time, they would have to justify the price (sculptors. production, etc)

I probably stand alone on this but I liked the idea that you got more than a model in the lieutenant packs. You also got decks that could definitely change the strategy as an Overlord. I liked that the expansion packs of various types came with miniatures and tools that would benefit both the Overlord and the players. While this can be seen as an extra expense, I like that I could choose what to buy and incorperate into the game- rather than having it all in one box for a price. I absolutely understand where you're your coming from. I also know that the games FFG needs to produce need to generate $$$. As FFG grew it became clear that if they even suspect they won't make money on a game, they pull it.

At the risk of repeating myself, I would love to see a dashboard/dial system incorporated rather than 3D tokens. Tokens as a whole pose problems for me in setup, bookeeping, and storage. I made my card size health tracker with a dial for health and stamina. I wasn't fond of putting wound and condition tokens on monsters and then having to move them on the board. I think a  dashboard and a dial system would increase the visual appeal of the game and keep things streamlined. I'm not sure how much this would cost to produce as opposed to tokens. I think it might be worth a look from FFG. Am I alone in this thinking?

I love Descent and I love FFG. I would like to see them succeed. My relationship with FFG has changed since it got acquired by Asmodee, though. Descent got really quiet for awhile and they pulled Mansions of Madness. Now they are making a new version of Descent that is not related to the 1E and 2E versions we all loved. I am not sure of the rationale. Its really to early to say anything about Legends of the Dark. I'm not as excited as I would be if it was an extension of the first 2 editions.  

I also admit that I clearly don't know what the market wants. I still can't understand how Gloomhaven skyrocketed while many people don't even know about Descent. Reading the rules of GH was enough of a turn off for to keep me from buying it. I think we are seeing people paying large sums of money for big box board games. I'm not anxious to join this trend at all.  I guess ya gotta do what ya gotta do FFG.  I'm still rooting for ya!

[Keeping second edition's 'journeys' going....]

It doesn't appear as if FFG/Asmodee is going to continue printing 2E. Anything else that is the contrary would be a very present suprise.

As for my opinion, I don't see how 2E could ever lose its shelf life. If you have the core game and a few expansions (some of which are still available) you have hours of tabletop co-op time. Add RtL with different characters and you can playtest strategies, and have a lot of fun as well. Valkyrie and other fan made content and you have hundreds of hours of game play. I'd be impressed with any gaming group of a few people that could get together regularly enough and play out the base game with a few additions in under a year. If you could, you have one impressive gaming group.

Tabletop games may go out of print- but they never expire. I have heard D2E being described by some as "dated". I don't agree.  I don't consider Gloomhaven an improvement, nor anything else that is currently available. I think it would be pretty hard to make a board game obsolete. The only way this should affect you is if you didn't already purchase Descent 2E. In which case there is still a small window of time that might be a worthwhile investment. That's a personal choice, though.

[What would you like to see from an actually 3rd edition?]

You stole my question LOL! Great minds think alike.

Here are some things that I think would like to see for a future version of Descent. I understand the next release is not really a 3rd edition and some of wishes are unrealistic. I am just throwing it out there anyway.

- the dynamic system that was saw with both Descent 2E and IA- you could play it co-op with an Overlord, or with an App.

-less reliance on results of the dice. I love the dice...I just wish that decision making and strategy would play more of an outcome in the end result of the game (I'm not sure if this is possible)

-3D terrain is a nifty idea

- keep the same Terrinoth style artwork

- Make it more streamlined so its easier to get to the table and less cumbersome on the table. Here are some examples:

  -lose alot of the tokens...give me a dial for monsters where I can keep track of health and conditions-

  - give me a dashboard/dial for my characters with a similar effect

-add the possibility of sinister hidden agendas

-keep the same flow streamlined rules

- it would be great if it was somehow backwards compatible with 2E and 1E

- Give people a reason to play this as a board game as opposed to a video game. I like the RtL ap as an option, but don't make the mechanics of the game totally reliant on technology.

 

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Descent vs Gloomhaven]

48 minutes ago, wyatt606 said:

Yea, you cannot really say 'what's with the hype?' or 'Why would anyone play x over y?' without actually sinking some time into it. I haven't played GH yet, but will probably try the new expansion/intro that was released for $50 to see if I like the game. That's another thing, how much does $150 or $175 get you for each game? I don't really want to give a ton of money to A$modee for just the base game and 1 expansion.

I see your point, on the price. I shopped around and found some reasonably good deals. I wouldn't have the same opinion if I paid msr for the games. That also being said, the lieutenant  packs which were often priced at around 10 bucks came with a full fledged deck of agenda cards that provided options and strategies that were game changers- and a nifty figure. Overlord players had the retail purchase options to choose their own stories strategies and options. Hero players, likewise had similar purchase options in expansions and hero and monster packs. I don't mind supporting something if it goes into development for making the experience better.

But, I feel you! And if you like Gloomhaven better and got in for $50...more power to ya , bra!

I also wondered after I dropped money what would happen if dropped the money on Gloomhaven. I 'd have  that big box on the shelf, sorted and stored in the extra money I paid for the insert.  Then I would actually play through the whole thing to benefit from the money I invested.  Incidentally, while I was thinking, I busted out the Road to Legend App and played Descent all the stuff I already owned. 🤣

[Descent vs Gloomhaven]

4 minutes ago, Hinge of Infinity said:

Heya - enjoyed the rant

I play both games (long time fan of Descent 1st Ed, transitioned to Descent 2nd Ed....and big fan of Imperial Assault), but I'm also really enjoying Gloomhaven. They're different!

Obviously you know Descent well, so I'll focus more on what's different and appealing about Gloomhaven:

The card system - I think that's where the magic in the design is. The diceless combat isn't just a gimic, the card system is brilliant. The cards represent your lifeforce...so if you get into a position where you can no longer recycle any cards and you are empty, so is your energy and you collapse unconscious. Managing that ever present risk creates a real tension. And you are only allowed a limited number of cards, which you can grow slightly by levelling up but they're a really limited commodity.

Additionally, each card has a lower half and an upper half...you play two cards each turn, electing to use the lower half of one and the upper half of the other.

Every card has a basic function (attack with a strength or 2, or move 2 squares) and then their specialist options on top of that.

The most powerful cards typically can't be recycled. It's a constant trade of: do I use this card's best function now, knowing I can't get it back and am one step closer to exhasution, or do I play it safe but risk not defeating this monster?

The game mechanics do a brilliant job of creating constant tension and I found the design of that really awe-inspiring. It's brilliant.

The other thing I'd say is that Gloomhaven really does feel like an open world branching story...you end up with more story threads than you can possibly chase, and that creates the feeling that you are in a story that is genuinely responding to your choices. It's an illusion but a very engaging and wonderfully convincing one.

My first few games I was a bit so-so, but the more I've played the more it's drawn me in. It really is a wonderful, engaging experience.

Having said that, I still dearly love - and prefer - Descent (especially 1st Edition).

I think Descent captures that fun, instantly engaging, high-fantasy rollicking adventure with immediately accessible heroes and villains.

And buffing up your character to the point where you chuck two fistfuls of dice at a monster is just EPIC fun.

I love it to bits.

The storylines and narrative elements of Descent 1st Edition are hands-down the most engaging and immersive boardgame story experience for me (appreciate others will differ).

Descent 2nd Ed, sacrifices some of that for streamlined, efficient game play and accessibility (although you can get a bit of it back if you play campaign style).

In that respect, I find Descent 1st Ed the most engaging experience, and then find Gloomhaven a bit more engaging than Descent 2nd Ed, which I'd place third....but it's splitting hairs to a degree, they're all great quality games.

If you get a chance, have a go at Gloomhaven. It offers something slightly different again and the mechanics and game design are a wonder to behold.

Hope that helps. And others please feel completely free to differ...this is purely my experience, personal biases and all

Thanks for your input! I wish I would have been around for Descent 1E. 

 

I familiarized myself with the Gloomhaven rules and liked the idea of diceless system. The rest of it seemed a little bit more weighty for a boardgame. (

I was a fan (and still am), a fan of card driven rpg system in the 90s: Dragonlance Fifth Age Saga. The idea was somewhat similar to Gloomhaven,  but  in my opinion better. The idea that your hand was your health. Injuries made you drop cards instead of HP. Since you used the cards in your hand for every skill check in the game injuries sustained had a direct impact on your ability to make decisions. That meant something than watching your numbers drop. As your experience grew and levelled, your hand grew, along with your sustainability and options. Because you had cards in your hand, you could make decisions based  on using your own personal stats to successfully complete a task. Fifth Age was a full fledged story driven rpg, and the rules and setup time were much less complicated than Gloomhaven. The whole game system folded TSR acquired new ownership. (See a pattern here). It was a diamond in the rough.

My post was not entirely about which "game is better".  I just hate to see games like Mansions of Madness, Descent, Imperial Assault go out of print. Those games were bridges that brought me to love FFG franchise. I think they should be developed and not discontinued. I think they have tremendous potential. Maybe a card based system could be woven in. (I know the tried with LtR)

This is another personal opinion, but I think its noteworthy if people in publishing and marketing read this:  One thing to consider is TIME.  Time is a huge factor for adult gamers. I originally got into board and card based games because I thought they would be a lighter alternative to a time consuming tabletop RPG. Granted when I played tabletop rpgs, when there wasn't a need for miniatures or tiles. Things to took place in the "theater of the mind". Setup was much less than it is nowadays.

So that begs a question:

why should I play a thematic board or card game that takes 45 minutes to set up and 2.5 hours to play and put away, when I could play a much more immersive full fledged rpg...which is way more in depth and has better mechanics in almost the same amount of time?

What I liked about Descent 2E was its versatility and the simplicity. It had an rpg feel that was more thematic than Chutes and Ladders. Painted miniatures and tiles make it really visually appealing. Innovative storage solutions reduced setup time without purchasing a third party storage solution that was the same cost of the game.  You could play a scenario in about an 1.5 hours and decide if you wanted to play again. I don't see that with Gloomhaven and that's the "gold standard" trend setter for the future of dungeon crawlers. 

Descent could be improved drastically with less reliance on luck, more reliance on decision making, and perhaps the thematic aspects of MoM in game that could be played in under 2 hours? Again, I speak for myself, but if those criteria can't be met I might as well play a full fledged rpg. 

I want to see the Descent legacy continue. As an example, I can't readily make a retail purchase of Descent 1E in a retail store. Its gone the way of the dodo. (along with all the other games FFG that I like. )  I don't want to see that happen if you're listening Fantasy Flight Games! 

[Descent vs Gloomhaven]

I am writing this rant in the hopes that it will capture attention from the people at FFG/Asmodee or whatever powers prevail over Descent's future.

I can't for the life of me understand what the appeal of Gloomhaven is. Gloomhaven is lauded so heavily and become  a benchmark goal for a marketable board game.

 

Before you continue reading, I have to admit something: I've never played Gloomhaven. I read the rules, and lost interest almost immediately. I've watched tutorials as well as the game plays.  Maybe my opinion would change if I played, but I doubt it.  I can't get passed the idea in the time that I am taking to organize this massive game,  learn the rulesets,  setup and play.....I could be playing...Descent!

Descent 2E is not a perfect game, by any means. To me, Its versatility still beats the pants off Gloomhaven. You can play it coo-op or with a narrator. You can play it solo or with friends.  Its cousin SW: IA allowed you to play in skirmish mode. You can add expansions that add flare and changes to the way the game is played. You can decide whether or not to add those changes in your purchasing decisions. You can play with the core set, and keep it simple. You can play with every expansion ever made.  The rules, may not be as detailed as Gloomhaven, but they are certainly are a lot easier to understand or explain to someone who is new to the game.  Though I hear Gloomhaven storyline is quite thematic...if I was going to take the time to play a game that that much depth...I could probably play D&D.  Descent has its own lightweight theme and if people wanted to learn more about Terrinoth the world is quite developed. 

I asked people what they thought of Gloomhaven. They told me how awesome it was. I asked them if they had ever tried Descent. Many of them strangely never heard of it. Unfortunately at the time, I didn't invite them to a game, but I found this answer peculiar. 

I understand this only one person's opinion. Maybe I'm miffed because my two favorite games Descent and MoM have a very uncertain future and I want to whine?  I'm not sure if its failure in marketing or presentation, but I can't understand why GH rose to the top when Descent could definitely could continue to be published, developed and improved. It won't stop me from playing the current 2E. They can stop publishing it, that still doesn't make it a shame for future players.

I was wondering what other people thought of this? Especially those who have played both Descent and GH more extensively than me.