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InfinityIncarnate

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  1. I know this might be a tad too late, however from reading through various suggestions, including this one, I think it's relatively important to point out that the use of the different attributes for each skill in genesys, represent using completely different metaphysical aspects from one another, like Primal (Cunning), Arcane (Intellect) and Divine (Willpower). So Considering this, I think it would make good sense with only one force skill linked to the 7'th characteristic - force rating, this characteristic can be raised above the usual characteristic limit of 7, because otherwise it would put a limitation on the force users that otherwise would not be there. The use force / force use skill is considered a carreer skill when the force rating 1 is acquired. This maintains various rules, like the acquirement and upgrading of force powers. In some cases I can see how it could makes sense with discipline being linked to force rating. I think it makes great sense to add difficulty for various things, like activation of the power, upgrades and masteries. However the part about it costing 2 advantage to activate an upgrade will pose a dilemma or an outright problem when compared to how it is now, because with only 1 dice, no matter if it's an ability or proficiency, it will be impossible to actually get 1 success and 2 advantage. Even activating the power with 1 difficulty could pose a bit of challenge, as there is inherently only 50% chance of scoring at least 1 success on ability dice, 12,5% of scoring a blank, 50% chance of scoring at least 1 advantage, but advantages doesn't do anything, then add on top of this what the difficulty dice can negate. considering the fact that the dice is similar to the abilty dice but is slightly skewed in favor of the positive dice, as it has 1 less failure on it but has 1 more threat on it. Where with the force dice it's always be possible to generate force points, light or dark. To me this reflects that there is an issue with your idea that needs to be fixed, because essentially, it will be a lot harder to use force powers than compared to the vanilla system. Furthermore, this system doesn't even reflect what normally would be possible under the vanilla system, like for instance control will require triumphs. However it does deal with something that I feel is somewhat disconnected in the vanilla system, is that skill and power don't seem to follow the lore - let me elaborate you can have a force user who's fairly weak in the force, even a FR1 who'll be able to actually, albeit not reliably, lift something like an AT&AT walker, just because he/she has spent xp on the strength upgrades which basically reflect being more skilled, not stronger - to me that doesn't seem correct according to lore - your system would currently make that more difficult, which is a good thing in my opinion. However... I can see there is a way to possibly solve the force point generation issue that I mention above, fairly simple - here I will be assuming that the force user is attempting to generate force points, rather than beat a difficulty to succeed, but various aspects can still make the check harder to succeed in generating the intended force points. The force user can attempt to manifest whichever side of the force, however, failures will convert them to the opposite side of the intended, and only through the use of a destiny point can they be used - which in turn will make the force power be considered to be of that side of the force. If I recall correctly, you also stated that a force user under this system would only be able to generate a maximum amount of force points/successes equal to the double the force rating. In regards to the use of other resource symbols, if using force powers are to cost strain just to activate, I think it would make some sense to at least be able to regain it through spending advantages, where threat would make it even more demanding, maybe 2 advantage - recover 1 strain, 2 threat - suffer 1 addition strain. One thing, which I feel is quite off in this game, is that it's made so that a dark side force user will not be able to use the light side, and will always be forced to use dark side points which will give it conflict. I can see why it makes sense to do it this way to make it more difficult for a dark side user to redeem him/herself, however it's just not correct in terms of lore - a dark side force user has never been barred from using the light side, for the most part there is just not much reason to be using the light side of the force, plus it is harder for a dark sider to use the light side, and thats very different from being impossible as the vanillas system has made it. I think that the force is NEUTRAL, that it's not colored, but emotion and intent will shift it from neutral to that of either light or dark. Furthermore, I think representing all dark side force user as the epitome of what is evil, is quite incorrect, as fear, anger and passion are quite far from evil, hate on the other hand could be considered evil. So personally I think it makes sense to allow for the dark side force use to be able to use light side points and for it to be considered a light side force power being use, as long as a destiny point is flipped, because it's harder to use the light side as a dark side, just not impossible. IF going with the several force skills, it might make good sense to make them upgradeable like the force powers, in fact have the strength upgrades be handled by the skills entirely instead of the powers, and cap the amount of strength upgrades to the skill rating and the force rating - this would in my opinion at least deal with the weak force users being able to lift AT&AT walker nonsense. I think the other upgrades could just as well be handled by the force skills rather than the powers. Generally speaking, to me it seems off that the main issue with the disconnect between force power strength and the individual skill of the force powers, is that strength doesn't equal skill, but by vanilla thats exactly what it does, because there is no limit to how many times you can activate an upgrade, and each time you activate the upgrade, you get it equal to the amount of upgrades that you have. Which is why for instance the FR1 force user will be able to lift a AT&AT walker if he/she has 4 strength upgrades, because just getting 2 force points will allow the force use to activate the power and get the 4 strength upgrades, even though thats not reliable, its' still possible nonetheless - which doesn't make sense. So I think it's important enough to try an address this issue and issue similar to this that reflect a disconnect. I hope this makes sense.
  2. I'm aware of that, but that is actually what the force dice inherently does very statically, completely irregardsless to the character's abilities or skills. It assumes how difficult it is to access either side, irregardless of abilities, skills and circumstances
  3. No I did not, just because I don't bring it up specifically doesn't mean that I ignore it, furthermore often when I don't bring it up, it's often because I assume that the answer I'm giving also serves as response to that, it's something that I already have given a response to. That particular quote I already had made a response to even before you brought it up, because my previous post actually directly answered it." Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke " - this part I already covered. The emperor wants the potential power that Luke can attain, that Vader is not half as good as he could be, does not make him any less stronger in comparison to Luke. And this quote specifically does not contradict Lucas' own statement about Vader being more powerful than Luke - which is a universal statement and applies to all of the movies where Vader is in, this also includes episode 6. Again, that I didn't bring it up doesn't mean that I ignored it, as you said it was now part of the non-canon, so I excluded it. No I did not ignore that, I just didn't comment on it. Both are holding back, each for their own reasons, however - there are several occassions where Luke is not holding back. Lucasfilm Story Group is a division of Lucasfilm Ltd. So yes, that is very much so from Lucas, and as the creator and author of the story and it's characters, his quotes count a 100%. So no I'm not down to zero sources, you are. No, I didn't not ignore that, inherently because that universal for all the movies Vader is in, and because of that it doesn't matter if it's episode 4, 5 or 6 we're discussing, he's still more powerful than Luke regardless. No, I didn't not ignore that you brough those as facts, even though they don't count as fact, which I already explained to you why they are not. Moreso because they actually contradict the already established canon. As I said in a previous post, Filefact, Fightsaber and those novels are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or trying to create feel good quotes for the fans of the characters, and furthermore they also contain the authors creative liberties. This I will ignore, because this is not something I have to provide any evidence for - you can either believe it or not. I can say for sure, on the matter of Luke being stronger than Vader, we will not be able to agree on, the evidence you've presented are interpretations, not actual hard facts, they're someone elses work that obviously happen to contradict the established canon Lucas' has created. Some of the so called "evidence" you've presented, you want it to support your interpretation, but fact of the matter is, it only supports it when you interpret it support interpretation. As an example, presented " Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke " - this you want work in favor of your interpretation - that Luke is stronger than Vader, but fact is that if you look at objectively, thats not what it says. I can see why you can interpret it as such, you're trying the make the connection between Vader only being half as good as the emperor was hoping Anakin to become, and that because he's ends up in a suit, he would therefore being weaker than Luke - but thats an interpretation, that is not what that statement says. Then when you put that statement together with Lucas' statement about Vader being more powerful than Luke, then the interpretation would not be possible to result in Luke being stronger than Vader because of Anakin becoming half-machine and therefore he's not half as good as he could be, and not nearly as good as what he the emperor was hoping he would become - now notice the last part "half as good as he could be, and not nearly as good as what the emperor was hoping he would become" - Not only does it not say that Luke is stronger, but it also puts that entire sentence in relation what the emperor was hoping for, and considering Anakin was the chosen one - the emperor was expecting him to become the most powerful, but even half as good as that is still very powerful. So even being half as powerful as what his potential was, he is still more powerful than Luke in any of those 3 episodes, including in the final battle against Vader. If you still believe that Luke is more powerful than Vader, it won't change anything Lucas' has stated about who of the two are the most powerful. Trying to sway me to have a different oppinion will prove to be futile and a waste of your efforts, as I share the same perception about the matter as Lucas does.
  4. That they're dark siders means that they can draw on it, not that they actively do it. We know that Dooku does it in the fights against Anakin. But Vader does not use it to empower his combat capabilities during that final fight, he could've but he didn't - that was a choice in favor of Luke. You keep dismissing all the things that work in Luke's favor, because it supports your interpretation of it. Actually, it still doesn't change the fact that he have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke. Futhermore, what Lucas is saying with that statement is that he doesn't know everything there is to know about the world that he created, the world he created, that means he 100% knows the material that he created - Lucas is very conscious about what he creates, but obviously he does not everything that COULD be created out of it. Furthermore, Lucasfilm Story Group who're handling the department of what can be accepted as canon and what cannot, and they have stated, that material you have presented falls outside of being canon, so no they're not back on - so it's not 4 pieces of evidence against 1, and no they were not equals. Lucas have stated that Vader is more powerful than Luke, and that is the end of this discussion about who of the two is more powerful than the other. Furthermore, you just want to be right and for me to be wrong, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to play that game. You keep dismissing everything I say, anything I present, even Lucas' own words in regards to the matter you dismis in favor of your own interpretation. I don't mind discussing things, and don't mind that I'm wrong sometimes, but I mind when someone keep dismissing everything I say, including evidence or things that could indicate otherwise, and then the ones turns it a battle about who's right and who's wrong, which right there makes it EXTREMELY SUBJECTIVE. But this ends here!
  5. Not a problem! The exact quotes: Statementes: GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is. BILL MOYERS: Did you feel pow … GEORGE LUCAS: And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he’s the — he’s the ultimate father who is all powerful. Here is the source: https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/ Oh I get it just well, but you haven't realized that it's not about them being stronger in the current time that he wants to turn them and replace them with his current apprentice, but because of the what their potential is. Anakin's potential is greater than Dooku's - thats why he wants to replace Dooku with Anakin. Luke's potential is greater then Vader's - which is why he wants to replace Vader with him, and the reason he has more potential is due to the fact that he's more machine now and thus has lost a lot of his potential, because do keep in mind, that Anakin was the chosen one, not Luke. So I get it alright. However there is a very, very important key aspect here that you are not taking into account - Palpatine is a Dark Side Nexus who's present when both Dooku and Vader are defeated, this means his presence is empowering both Anakin when he defeats Dooku, and when Luke defeats Vader, making both temporarily much stronger with the dark side of the force, which is the side they're pulling from to empower them. Do you really think that Palpatine is only present because he wants to enjoy the show, no he wants to influence them and empower them so that they can defeat Dooku and Vader, so they can take their place instead, because he wants to use the power they can achieve. ...but seriously, I'd appreciate if you'd stop with the more personal attacks.
  6. silhouette Yeah, I know they removed it, jus not for what reasons, my thought was that it's to try and keep it more vague thus more subjective as a result. Though, that list I do think gives an idea of the power scale they intended. However, I do think it also in some regard indicates that the force rating system and power system has a flaw, namely that you can be fairly weak in the force but given enough time (xp), your force powers could be improved to a point that could make the character seem a lot stronger in the force even when indeed the character is not. Consider it, there are in total 4 strength upgrades on move power, if I remember correctly, and there is no limit to how many times you can activate the upgrades, and for each time you use activate it, you activate all upgrades of that type, for a single force point. So say if someone with an FR of 2, would only need 2 force points and it could activate it and move an object up to silhouette 4 - if memory servers me correctly, then that would be something like YT1300 Freighter or an AT-AT Walker - for a mere 2 force points. Had it been an FR3 with just one magnitude upgrade then just rolling 3 could move 3 AT-AT Walkers OR move a capital class. In my opinion that reflects a flaw in the system, which doesn't really represent the lore accurately. Obviously, one can be skilled in the force, but skill and power does not equate one being able to do more than what one strength in force would normally allow.
  7. I'm not ignoring the movies - NO WHERE did I state that, but I am telling you, that what you're stating as evidence from the the movies, is YOUR INTERPRETATION of those scense WITH YOUR ASSUMPTION about Luke and Vader. I'm also telling you that what you use as your supporting evidence from Filefact, Fightsaber and the novels, you're treating as ACTUAL CANON when it is NOT. What I also tried to point out, which you've completely dismissed, is the fact that ALL of the authors for Filefact, Fightsaber, Novels (both graphic and written) and other 3rd party material INCLUDE THE AUTHORS INTERPRETATION as well ANY potential CREATIVE LIBERTIES TAKEN - the last parts are exactly why they cannot be treated as fact nor evidence despite how much you would want it to, because it fits with your interpretation of the movie. The only "OFFICIAL" about those sources is that they're licensed, but being licensed doesn't mean anything with regards to validity. I treat all of the 6 movies as original unchangeable canon. I did provide other evidence to support what I said, which you completely dismissed. I also provided you with evidence that even George Lucas says that Luke was only perceived as being stronger, but in reality it was the circumstances of the situation gave him that perceived superiority - as mentioned that Vader was seriously conflicted while also keep trying to turn Luke, where wounding or killing would defeat the purpose, plus it was his ticket out of being ruled by the emperor. You completely disregarded that piece of evidence, which comes straight from the source of the creator, no interpretation or anything what so ever involved. So perhaps you should stop dismissing what I'm saying in favor of interpretation, because fact is that GL has stated that Vader is much stronger than Luke. Which by the way is also supported by the fact that Luke later has many difficulties dealing with adversaries, whom Vader outright crushes. The D20 SW RP System, isn't N-Canon or the very least, I haven't seen a single source that claims this, if anything it would fall into the now legends, just as FFG's SW currently neither is canon nor legends by official sources, but given the fact that it's Star Wars to the core, it at least deserves being recognized as at least legends. I have no idea how you came think that the WEG D20 SW RP System Statblock for Luke and Vader I provided, that I was looking at the alter side of the force powers - which by the way makes ZERO sense, as their statblocks doesn't have anything to with the force powers that rely on the alter feat. I mentioned those references, only for the sake for a COMPARATIVE REFERENCE, as those both are two official SW RP systems. Furthermore, I recall you said that FFG didn't provide a statblock for Luke at the end of episode 6, but what you provided was, again YOUR INTERPRETATION of the so called logical progression. WEG D20 SW RP System, does not reflect Luke to be of equal strength to Vader in the end of episode 6, far from it - which is supported by George Lucas' statement, both of which completely CONTRADICT YOUR INTERPRETATION of Luke's power at that point. Even though they both handle system-wise handle the force and the use of it differently, WEG still presents a somewhat accurate representation of Luke's power and skill. I also need to point out, that I did NOT admit to anything by saying what Lucasfilm Story Group considers reliable sources, nor did I say "none of that counts". Don't say things I didn't say. As I already presented to you, which you completely dismissed, so I'm going to quote as that still stands. Furthermore, it's not an excuse, Vader is holding back and so is Luke, but Luke is also being influenced by Palpatine, both by his very presence, by his coercion attempts and quite possible also use force use in regards to influence, so there are moments where he does want to destroy Vader, but realizes whats going on and backs down. That their journeys are mirrored doesn't equate to them being mirrored equals, that is YOU INTERPRETATING IT AS SUCH! Please do notice that NOTHING in that statement indicates that they equals in terms of skill, strength and power - ONLY that their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways. Secondly, being mirrored could also reflect their journeys are similar but opposites. Those sources doesn't state anything about Luke being an equal to Vader in regards to skill, strength and power. This is you twisting the information because of trying to make it fit your interpretation. ..for the record, I'm not trying to win a discussion here, this is a matter of interpretation - However by George Lucas' statement, there is all the evidence needed, Luke wasn't stronger than Vader in episode 6, not even close to, where none you present can ever change his statement, as that is your interpretation. Furthermore, just take notice of how much exactly you've skewed this statement "Their journeys mirror each other" to them being they're equals, because that is not what the statement says nor implies. Perhaps you should take a step back re-evaluate exactly how much YOUR INTERPRETATION INTERFERES with your objectivity. You're entitled to your interpretation, but according to what George Lucas states about Luke and Vader in episode 6, then I'm sorry to say, but that means your interpretation isn't correct, no matter how you want it to be so - but thank you for the effort in trying to give light to your interpretation.
  8. The Force Rating table that I summerized - that is by FFG. It was published inside the beta of EoTE, but as far as I can tell was removed in the final version. Nonetheless, that is the official table that was published. Hence why I referenced it. That is not fact, that is your interpretation of it. I have a statement from George Lucas in fact saying Luke is less powerful than Darth Vader. Everyone knows it, though the main material makes Luke out to be the superior to a heavily conflicted Vader while Luke is using the Darkside. Furthermore, when considering the fact that Vader is also trying to turn him where wounding or killing Luke would defeat that purpose, that also puts a restraint on Vader that only furthers the advantage that Luke has in that particular situation. Furthermore, Palpatine was also "supercharging" Luke's dark side, because of Palpatine being a Darkside Nexus - in the presence of Luke. ..an interesting fact: When you have later versions of Luke having extreme difficulty with defeating people Vader would slaughter - that only shows exactly how superior Vader was to Luke, and it was only all the advantageous circumstances that made Luke able to defeat Vader. Fact files and Fightsaber Insider 62, are really just someone’s interpretation of events, or a feel good quote for the fans of one of the characters, they're not to be treated as approved canon, especially because there are taken creative liberties. They're really nothing more than a subjective opinion. When it comes to the ROTJ Novel, interpretation and trying to provide a backstory that tries to elaborate on various things, that does not nesessarily fit with the canon presented in the movies, creates a conflict, because which one is more right!? But as the Novel is based on the authors interpretation - as you can see on the front of the books cover: based on the story of George Lucas, it means that it will be the authors interpretation. So it will be more subjective than objective and furthermore it's very likely to also have been subject to creative liberties. So I'd treat whats in the movies as the most true canon there is, and it is the primary source. Additionally, Fightsaber Insider 62 and Fact File also is subject to the circular reference fallacy, and they're also subject to incorrect interpretations their might be in 3rd party source material thats BASED on the story. So obviously as you probably can tell, I'm not just going to be accepting the directly conflicts with the main canon, and I'm most certainly going to check those sources for their references or the very least a statement that approves it to be fully correct in terms of canon, and oddly enough I could not find any. So are you refering only to the ROTJ Graphic novel or the actual ROTJ novel or both? Because I do not find those references in the novel. Like I wrote above, you cannot treat File Fact as a primary representation of canon, especially when it contradict it, and furthermore it's an interpretation of the event, which also tries to be a feel good quote for the fans for Luke. The only approved canon there are, is the movies and anything thats stated to be approved to be fully correct in terms of canon. Even George Lucas have stated that Luke is inferior to Vader at that time, the only reason he can defeat him is for the reasons already stated in his statement above. However, just to point something out to you - Lucasfilm Story Group has declared: This basically means that when it comes to canon we can only really rely on the above listed sources (for now), which automatically removes Fact File, Fightsaber Insider 62 and any of the novels you mentioned. However, with that being said, I don't know what FFG has based Luke's FR stat on, but when it comes to the movie, there actually isn't anything that directly supports Luke being an FR3 at Hoth, if anything he'd be below, and it isn't until after the Battle at Hoth that he goes to the Degobah system to begin his training. When you then consider he had'nt received any proper training before going to that cave, there is nothing that would suggest his FR score would be more than 1. Personally I wouldn't mind an actual developer response on that, because again like I've said before, you don't need to have a high FR score to be competent, because having upgrades in force powers lets you do no more for the same amount of force points.
  9. This is based on the information in the core book of that system, and those are references that holds true for their representation of SW through their system. Honestly, I don't find their system be wonky at all, it's very direct and in my opinion fairly accurate. I think it most certaintly reflect what we see, because I don't think Luke is a Master in the force when he's fighting Vader episode 6, and there is absolutely nothing that suggest that he is. I don't what you say reflects what we seem in terms of force strength. I don't agree with that Luke is FR3 in the Degobah cave, Luke was in the end of episode 4 told seek Yoda in the Degobah system, it's only after the Battle of Hoth that he goes there to BEGIN his training, and he doesn't seem to be there very long before attempt at trying lift the X-wing out of the swamp - this is why don't think he's more than FR1 at that current time, because he's only almost just begun his training. Sure Obi-wan gives him an introduction to the force and let's him try to realize that he's force sensitive, but that is it. At this point, he's only just beginning to realize that he's force sensitive = FR1. Between episode 4 and 5 he doesn't receive any further training, and it's only when he goes to the Degobah cave that he begins his training - the FR3 at the Degobah cave is way off. What I agree to is, that he's an FR2-3 at the end of episode 5 - that he over the course of episode 5 goes from FR1 to FR2-3. Then something happens between episode 5 and 6, but not necessarily an increase in force strength, I think it's much more possible that he's been learning new force powers. When episode 6 ends he's somewhere between a FR3-5, but most likely 4-5. As the D20 SW RP system puts him at Jedi Knight level it could be either FR3, FR4 or FR5. FR1 - Jedi Initiate FR2 - Self-taught exile; Padawan FR3 - Young Jedi Knight FR4 - Well-trained Jedi Knight FR5 - Veteran Jedi Knight FR6 - Jedi Master / Sith Lord FR7 - Legendary FR7+ Obviously still legendary. In regards to Luke's lightsaber skills, they're very basic and unrefined - and he never received any training in it, it's all self-taught and copied from fighting against Vader. Unless there is actually a reference that says anything about being relatively equal in blade skills means relative equal in force strength, I'm not going to take your word for it, and I'm certainly not convinced - especially because that there is light saber skill that deals with that. I do not believe that the skill with the light saber reflects your force strength. Consider that you can get a maximum of 2 light side points per force dice, getting 4 is more than enough to reflect what he can do. Especially also if you consider that it's not a matter of being able to generate many points, it's a matter of many upgrades you have.
  10. The FR3 makes sense in the end of episode 5, but not in the Degobah cave. So it maybe thats the stat they've given, but it's possible it's somewhere AFTER the Degobah cave. I don't feel that is very accurate in regards to when he was in the Degobah cave, considering he had only first begun his training at that point. Is that progression your logical progression or is that stated in the sourcebook? Because as far as I read before, you said that was the logical progression. Just because one grows stronger doesn't mean that enough to warrant complete increase in rating. In regards to him fighting his father, I didn't say tries to kill him in episode 6, only when he threatens to turn Leia to the dark side. Both are on the defensive and really don't want to fight each other, but they both have different reasons. Vader wanting to turn him over, and Luke wanting to save him. But as far as EPISODE 5 goes, yes Luke does try to kill him, to the best of his efforts. Everything that Vader says, is him trying make him give and turn to the dark side. I'm going by what the movie is showing. That's not what the text you quoted is saying at all about his force power, in fact in doesn't say anything about their force powers in comparison, all that states is that he was able to duel him on equal footing and that he was mirroring his form V technique. HOWEVER.... There is reference material, which I have stated on several occasions now - Luke actual Jedi level in D20 SW RP system, he's a Jedi Guardian at level 7 which is KNIGHT level - this in the end of episode 6. Vader is a Jedi Guardian 11 and a Sith Lord at level 6 and this is at the beginning of episode 4 - Jedi Guardian 11 - is Jedi Master level. ..so yes, there most certainly is reference and evidence material availabe. Force rating in this system: FR3-5 is KNIGHT-level force rating. FR6 is MASTER or SITH LORD .. D20 SW RP System in comparison to FFG Starwars means that: Jedi level 7 is the equivalent of FR3-5 Jedi level 11+ is the equivalent of FR6+ Sith Lord 6+ is the equivalent of FR6+
  11. No problem with the typo, that happens. That is IF it's being resisted, minions are not allowed to resist force powers, I think it's only those who're allowed to resist you'd use that - guess thats a matter of rule interpretation. Though it could be argued that if one can freely generate force points to it, then it only makes sense they're allowed a save against it. Luke doesn't hold back in episode 5, he wants to kill Vader (for killing his father), it's only when Vader sows the seeds about him being the father that Luke becomes more hesistant in regards to killing him. Vader could sense that Luke was strong in the force. One thing is being strong in the force and another being strong willed, those are not the same. Luke wanted turn Vader back to the light, and was willing to sacrifice himself to do so, thats how committed he was to it, and that takes immense willpower to force yourself to not fight, even when you know if you don't you will die. No offense, but the so called "logical" progression you're talking about, is your subjective opinion about his force power. Vader in episode 6 was very much so holding back, as he wanted to him to turn, plus Vader had a massive amount of conflict within him as well, no he was not going full power on Luke, and you can clearly see it by is actions - Vader is constantly on the defensive, and he keeps trying to lure him over, with the final push being the threat to turn his sister when he doesn't want to turn - which is what makes Luke snap, fighting to protect what he loves. Furthermore, D20 SW puts Luke at then of episode 6 as a Jedi Guardian lvl 7 - that is the equivalent of a knight in terms of force power. So in terms of this system, he's at best be FR5 as thats a strong knight. FR6 represents a Jedi Master or Sith Lord, and FR7 is legendary. So if anything, considering that Vader (Anakin) is the chosen one, I'd say his force rating would be FR7 as the chosen is legendary. You give Luke far more credit than he deserves by saying he's a FR6 or FR7. By the way corrected on a previous post what force level the D20 SW RP system puts him at, it's correctly reflected here in this post, but in the previous post - I wrote it was in the end of episode 6 he was at jedi knight level, but I misread the entry, it is in fact in the end of episode 6 he's a jedi knight in terms of force strength.
  12. Using force powers on PCs is outside the scope of what I was talking about, as PC are allowed to resist force powers on them. Simple use of the classic mind trick, could be done in a multitude of scenerio that doesn't involve a stressful situation, naturally they can evolve into one, but they can be kept from becoming that through the use of mind trick, and minion-level and rival-level npcs aren't allowed to resist against it. He might hold the advantage, but that is ONLY, and that is with a big emphasis on only because Vader is holding back on his full capabilities, during every fight scene Luke has with Vader, there is only one fight where uses a little bit more of his capabilities, and that is in episode 5, but that's only really because Luke angers him. Vader has no intention of destroying Luke, which is why he's holding back, which is the ONLY reason Luke is able to seemingly hold the advantage. In the final battle, I don't think he's FR6 or 7, if anything he's closer to 4, there is simply too much progression to cover for him to be a 5, 6 or even a 7. He doesn't display anything that would indicate he's a force user at those levels you say. But that was my point, you can only fail because you choose to fail - however that was what @HappyDaze pointed out, you can also failed because of lacking the resource point that allows you to take the opposite sided force point. However, my point still is, that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use the other side of the force and that is incorrect according to lore, and there reason there will be times is due to two things: An attuned force user cannot in this system use the opposite force side of it's attunement. It requires one or more resources to use the opposite force side of it's attunement. This creates scenarios where it will be impossible to use the opposite force side rather than it just being more difficult for a dark side user to use the light side of the force, but moreso that the light side user can't even when it supposed to be easier to use the dark side of the force. In my opinion that is big lore-break right there.
  13. Notice, I wrote due to choices? This also accounts for choices leading up to the failure, like a choice to spend a destiny point earlier on during the session. But I'll grant that of course there situations where you don't have any of the required resources and in those events you can fail (like also starting out with zero destiny points). Either way though, this force dice system has that part all wrong, because a light side or dark side user of the force, is never ever barred from using the other side of force, it's only harder (more difficult) for a dark side attuned force user to use the light side, but not impossible, where a light side user always can choose the the dark side, and having it made in a way that results in that you can't choose light or dark unless you spend a resource, is NOT true to the lore. Other SW RP systems reflect that it's possible but more difficult, however this system reflects the complete opposite - that there will be times where it will be IMPOSSIBLE and incorrect according to lore - at the very least the lore I'm familiar with! Which is also one of the reasons why I wanted to make a system such as the one in the OP.
  14. In canon, any force sensitive being who's trained to use their force sensitivity consciously, can consciously sense and manipulate the energy known as the force, which in turn is what gives them their force powers. Even when the force is being used unconsciously, it's still the mind thats tapping into the force - so it absolutely requires control over one's mind. So even when you do lose self-control but not consciousness, one will still retain the ability to use the force. The only reasons why Kylo Ren and many other Dark side users lashes out more violently is because they lose control of themselves because something has triggered their anger, which they have difficulty dealing with, but any force user who loses self-control, don't necessarily lose control of all of their emotions, some emotions will take over. Quite clearly, anger issues aren't representative for every dark side user, just because it's one of the primary emotions that can lead to the dark side. Interestingly you bring up Vader, because Vader especially is very much in control of his emotions, and I would like to point out that a dark side user actually quite often will be very much in control of their emotions, giving into the anger, hate and/or fear is a choice - a conscious or subconscious choice, and quite litterally if they're not in control it could spell their own doom! In most of episode 4-6 we almost never see Vader, let go of his emotions, there is only really one where it results in Luke losing his hand, and that was as result of Luke hitting him in the shoulder with the light saber. Actually for the most part, Vader is VERY controlled in regards to his emotions. Vader could easily have defeated Luke, in each of every encounter they had, but because Vader did not truly want to destroy Luke, he did not unleash his full potential or even much of it. So it doesn't matter what you call it, they still use their mind to feel and use their connection to the force. Both light and dark siders both use their thoughts and emotions to access the force, with their intentions "coloring" and giving the powers the sided qualites from the emotions, and they use different emotions and respective aspects of it to do this, and the jedi code and sith both reflect this in their own way. They both also focus when they use it, focus what they want to do with it, but how much and how long they need to focus certainly depends how trained they are and how their current situation affects them. Let me also point out, just because you don't see that it's the mind doing it, doesn't meant that it's not the mind thats doing it. Let me remind you that the force is something personal and deeply spiritual to the core within a force sensitive's being, and that a dark side user can't use the light side of the force is actually a very big misconception, because they absolutely can if they need to, but it's much more difficult when they've attuned themselves to the dark side. In the D20 SW game, that's reflected as a numerical penalty when trying to use the light side as a force user attuned to the dark side, where they would get a numerical bonus to use the dark side. This system, treats it like they can't, and they will forever only be able to use the dark side UNLESS they redeem themselves, which in my opinion FLIES IN THE FACE OF LORE as you call it. Speaking of rage, the rage that is very much controlled is far more dangerous comparison to raw and uncontrolled rage. Furthermore, the dark side isn't just about rage and destruction, it's also about anger, fear, hatred, pain, suffering, malice, corruption, destruction - essential very negative emotions, but not just those, Also, that dark siders don't focus is very much so a misconception, because they do focus, but their focus is more "with a narrow specific purpose". It's their passion that "fuels" their use of the force, and passion exist within in the mind, not in the connection with the force. It's knowlegde about the force, training and practicing sensing and manipulating the force, skills various skills that support the use of the force including discipline, thoughts and emotional states for both sides that enables the use of the force. And passion? Passion can be a catalyst for both sides. Even the sith code reflects this in it's very first paragraph. " Peace is a lie. There is only Passion." - There is only PASSION! (Compassion included). Anyone using the force, can with enough knowledge, skill and strength in the force, make the powers that are equal or similar, however it's the emotion and intent that colors it, and ultimately gives the powers their qualities and drawbacks. Take for example, force lightning, that is possible for both sides - essentially it's ligtning created by the force, when it's colored by the light side, it won't be harmful or destructive but when colored by the dark side, it will become harmful and destructive. I see the force as being neutral, but emotions are what fuels and thus gives them their sided qualities. I know there are lot of people who share this perception of it, and it makes perfect sense in canon, as force is balance, the balance between light and dark is NEUTRAL. With regards to my system, the fact that one can fail, not because of choice, but circumstances, reflects one thing that Yoda says "The greatest teacher, failure is.". You cannot truly fail with the force dice system, only because of choices. You probably disagree with me on all points! But I've asked for official statements to back your arguments, several times now, and you've so far provided none.
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