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InfinityIncarnate

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  1. It's not written anywhere rules-wise, this is a completely grey area how it would affect shapechanging, but using a bit of common sense it should be fairly obvious why prothetics limbs and cybernetic implants would interfere with shapechanging. There is nothing that suggests that it shouldn't be more difficult, to the contrary there is when you look at the lore. First of all, it's important to establish that all cybernetic implants mainly either falls into the category of being a replacement or an enhancement, furthermore it's equally important to acknowledge that a cybernetic implant is an artificial biomechanical device that is connected with wires and other things with the body. Replacements: Replacements were prosthetic or artificial units intended to replace lost limbs and damaged organs. Common replacements provided no benefits other than duplicating the essential functions of their biological counterparts, and they presented little strain on the beneficiary's overall well-being. In appearance, a cybernetic replacement could be recognizably artificial or virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. Enhancements: Enhancements bestowed new abilities or improved the recipient in some fashion. Enhancements included skeletal reinforcement, subcutaneous communications hardware, and weapon mounts. Some enhancements had visible external components, while others were hidden beneath the skin. Enhancements put more of a drain on the body's resources, and recipients frequently suffered debilitating physical or mental side effects. You say that I want shapechanging to suffer penalties to any skill check when trying to trick others, which is quite far from correct - I want only the shapechanging action to be affected when the shapechanger in question has cybernetic implants and tries to shapechange - What else the character does to try do when attempting to trick others, which isn't shapechanging is irrelevant, like why they shapechange is irrelevant. For those willing to make the sacrifice of flesh and expense, the body could be "upgraded" to allow for additional skills and abilities. Some involved modifying the limbs and internal systems of the potential patient. As with everything in the galaxy, this came at a potential price, in credits and in the potential loss of self. However, I did not declare it as fact that having prostethics/cybernetics interferes with shapechanging in the way you said I said it interferes - I declared as fact that "it impacts the narrative positively even if it impacts the character negatively, because this will reflect narratively cybernetics implants and prothetics interferes with shapechanging". What I'm suggesting doesn't have anything to do with bothersome minute tracking. It's completely reasonable that it complicates the shapechanging process and there is a serious risk in attempting to shapechange with cybernetic implants or prostethic limbs, as the character has no control over how and what it's connected to in the body. What you quoted there wasn't specifically aimed at you, but was meant in general. What was meant with that, is that just because something bad happens in the game, doesn't mean it's bad for the narrative and the game. It's an ongoing story being told, and while players won't always like what happens with their characters, but that doesn't mean that it can't be fun and entertaining. Just because you don't see the narrative benefit, doesn't mean there isn't one. One of the narrative benefits I see this mechanic have, is that it narratively can reflect cybernetic implants and prostethic limbs, replacements and enhancements, sometimes can interfere with shapechanging, but also how a shapechanger with sufficient insights about cybernetics could stop it from interfering.
  2. Prothetic limbs adds both cosmetics and function, just not any new functions. However cybernetic implants on the other hand, does very much so add NEW functions and thus new benefits. Furthermore, this would only be relevant for shapechangers. It would only cause them damage IF they trigger it, not straight up damage just from shapechanging while having cybernetic implants or prosthetics installed. You seem to forget that shapechangers already have a benefit that most don't have - the ability to shapechange, installing cybernetic implants and prothetics should come at a sacrifice in relation to shapechanging. Just because something can impact a character negatively, doesn't mean it's a negative narrative impact, in fact I'd say it impacts the narrative positively even if it impacts the character negatively, because this will reflect narratively cybernetics implants and prothetics interferes with shapechanging - it's not all just a bunch of numbers and stuff, it all carries a meaning. In my opinion, it would enrich the gaming experience, but then again some people only view the bad stuff that happens in game, as only bad.
  3. That may be so that they are more advanced, but they're still BEYOND the shapeshifters control, they don't have in regards to shapechanging any control over the prosthetic limb or any other cybernetic implant for that matter. Whether or not someone who's had a prostethic limb or cybernetics implant for a long time thinks it's just a part of them, doesn't change the fact that biologically they're artificial, not normally part of them. I don't want to incur penalty dice for the prosthetic limbs or cybernetic implants intended function - ONLY with regards to shapechanging because they don't have any control over how the prostethic limbs or cybernetic implants are CONNECTED to their body internally, and because of this the check should be more difficult, and obviously the more they have connectred the more difficult it would be to shapechange WITHOUT it resulting in it detrimentally impacting the character.
  4. The reasoning for adding them as yellow straight away, is for the potential to negate dispair with thriumphs, attribute dice don't have triumphs. Furthermore, the reasoning behind adding a challenge dice to the default check, is to add what the risk attempting to shapechange with cybernetics implanted represents, which only can come from a dispair result. If you notice above, I wrote for each dispair that remains after the result has been resolved, it would give 1 wound per 1 dispair, which would represent internal damage.
  5. The reason why I didn't add the attribute dice from the knowledge skill, simply due to the fact the knowledge skill is primarily there to potentially negate the negative potential from shapechanging with cybernetic implants, essentially offsetting the penalties. However there is one flaw inherent in this that I see, which is it doesn't matter how few and minor the cybernetic implants are, one would still get the full benefit of the successes one could roll from the added dice from knowledge, which could substantially increase the chances of success, with regards to however difficult the normal resilience check would be. So the only thing I can see that would make sense, is that one is only allowed to add the amount of proficiency dice from the knowledge skill as there have been added difficulty or challenge dice due to cybernetic implants. So for instance if 2 challenge dice had been added and one had knowledge of 3, then only 2 may be added to the dice pool. However, there may be a simpler solution: Shapechanging check for Clawdites is: An average resilience check = 2 Purple |||| Due to it being shapechanging with cybernetic implants, it becomes a hard check instead = 3 purple. Then upgrade a minimum of 1 difficulty dice because of shapechanging with cybernetic implants, irregardless of how many or how invasive they are - this represents the dangerous nature of shapechaing with cybernetic implants. For each cybernetic implant one has, 1 difficulty dice is added - the first cybernetic implant is already accounted for in the hard difficulty check. There is an exeption, prosthetic cybernetic implant only add a setback dice instead. For every major invasive cybernetic implant one has, 1 difficulty dice is upgraded. Knowledges and skill ranks in the afforementioned can either downgrade an upgrade (equivalent of negating an upgrade) of per 1 used or remove a difficulty dice down to a minimum of the default check for shapechanging with cybernetic implants - see above. It will do the downgrade and remove sequentially per dice, first; downgrade then remove. So down to a minimum of = 1 red and 2 purple. Also, I think it might be reasonable to have dispair represent 1 wound per 1 dispair that remains from the check, which narratively represents the shapechanger taking internal damage caused by the cybernetic implants getting misplaced, severed tissue/blood vessels/etc. cybernetics malfunction (electrical damage), etc. There are lot of ways this could narratively be represented and explained. Example - I re-use my example from above. This would mean that first the shapechanging check becomes a hard check = 3 purple, but due to the risk involved one dice is upgraded, so the check becomes = 1 red and 2 purple. This clawdite has THREE cybernetic implants in total, since 1 difficulty dice is already accounted for, another difficulty is added and upgrade, which brings it to = 2 red and 2 purple. As the clawdite has Knowledge(Cybertech) 2, it can downgrade 2 dice, as the rule above is stated; downgrade first then remove, it becomes = 1 red and 2 purple. Brawn 2 and resilience 2, becomes = 2 yellow. So the total dicepool to be rolled would be = 2 yellow, 1 red and 2 purple. As long as 1 success remains, the change is successful, however depending on the rest of what symbols that remains from the check, will affect the rest of the actual outcome. Even despite it being a success, it's possible with this check, there would be a slight chance of taking internal damage, which I think is quite reasonable considering how dangerous it would be, to attempt to shapechange with something connected somehow, which the shapechanger has no control over what so ever, that is connected to something internally. So even with some knowledge of cybernetic implants, as these are not something the shapechanger has any control over, so the possibility for internal damage or cybernetic implant malfunction, disconnection, etc. or even outright damage to it, is most certainly possible. Maybe down the lines of something like this: 1 dispair = 1 wound (ignores soak due to being internal) 1 threat: Discomfort - Add one setback dice to next action. 2 threat: Mechanical/Technical glitch - add one setback dice for the encounter/scene. 3 threat: Cybernetic implant malfuction/disconnected - disabled until a successful mechanics check to re-enable or make the the cybernetic implant function properly again. 4 threat: Cybernetic implant damaged - will function at 2 setback dice until successfully repaired. 5 threat: Cybernetic implant severely damaged - permanently disabled until successfully repaired
  6. I'm not forgetting the effects of threat and dispair, they should definitely be there, as it's most certainly not risk free to attempt shapechanging with cybernetics, and in my opinion shouldn't be either. Why think threat and dispair, especially dispair, is due to the nature one can fail, more importantly how bad it can actually go when attempting to shapechange while having cybernetics implanted. The way cybernetics are implanted, means that they're connected specifically to tissue, muscles, nerves, etc. with specific sizes and properties - when you shapechange, you're not just resizing those that it's connected to, you might be rearranging them, but even if it's just a matter of "re-sizing" these, one is still running the risk that one might sever something the cybernetic implant is connected to, or that the cybernetic implant is disconnected and needs to be re-connected, and so forth. In my opinion, I don't think it should just be a matter of, if you succeed or not, because the shapechanger is doing something which has the potential to go horribly wrong due to the cybernetic implants. I agree, that upping the strain cost would be problematic, and that suggestion was also more in the sense you wanted to make it easier to succeed at shapechanging with cybernetic implants, than it should be. I don't see how my math don't work out, even when I'm actually mixing two skills; Brawn (2): 2 Green Resilience (2): Upgrades 2 green to 2 yellow Sub-Total = 2 Yellow. Knowlegde skill bonus: 2 yellow: Total = 2 + 2 = 4 Yellow. The attribute and proficiency dice are weighted slightly more in favor of success than difficulty and challenge dice are weighted towards failure. However as both are each others equivalent opposite, so I don't see the problem. What I initially suggested did that, but the problem with that is that you'll be assuming that in every situation, they would negate each other, which they wouldn't - both are variables. Even though the attribute and skill number is a static value, but what they represent is not, hence why they can't just negate each other.
  7. I don't think that just upgrading the check would be sufficient, but I do agree with the cybernetic would not be changeable. For example, after the clawdite has taken the needed amount of strain, it would normally just need to pass an average check, with what you suggest, cybernetics would essentially only make less of an impact on the actual roll. However, I think it's reasonable to consider upping the strain cost, as it does become more strenous to shapechange with cybernetics complicating the matter, so perhaps +2 or 3 strain for every major cybernetic and +1 for every minor cybernetic. I think cybernetics implants should impose IF minor; 1 difficulty dice per 1 minor, IF major: 1 challenge dice per 1 major, IF prosthetic; 1 setback per 1. Example a clawdite that wants to shapechange, and who has: Brawn 2. Resilience 2. Knowledge(Cybertech) 2 1 major cybernetic implant. 2 minor cybernetic implants. With your suggestion it would cost the normal strain and would have to pass a check with 1 difficulty + 1 challenge + 2 setback. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 5 failures. The player's part of the check, with 2 brawn and 2 resilience, it would have 2 profiency dice. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 4 successes. In conclusion, with 4 potential successes and 5 potential failures, there is only one more in favor of a fail. Furthermore, it's knowledge(cybertech) did not have an impact on the roll. My suggestion, I said that mechanical and/or medicine skill, technical and/or medical knowledge could reduce the difficulty or the challenge, but I think it would be better that those were just added to the roll but only the proficiency dices. With what I suggested it would cost the normal strain and would have to pass a check with 4 difficulty + 1 challenge, this part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 10 failures. The player's part of the check, with 2 brawn, 2 resilience and 2 knowledge (cybertech), it would have 4 profiency dice. This part of the check has the potential to score a maximum of 8 successes. In conclusion, with 8 potential successes and 10 potential failures, there is only two more in favor of a fail. Furthermore, the knowledge(cybertech) is allowed to potentially impact the outcome of the check.
  8. That was what I thought, which is quite unfortunate. What would be reasonable check if a character who have implanted cybernetics shapechanges, when; - they have no technical and/or medical knowledge about cybernetics. - they have more cybernetics. I think in generally it would make sense that it would become increasingly more difficult the more cybernetics character has, or the more invasive the cybernetics are, where the less technical and/or medical the character has would further complicate it and it would increase the chance of it going horribly wrong. On the other hand, the more technical and/or medical knowledge the character has, the more negative dices with regards to increased difficulty due to cybernetics, can eliminated. I'm thinking down the lines of using difficulty dice or setback dice to reflect the increased difficulty. Perhaps something down the lines of; Increases difficulty: +1 difficulty dice per 1 cybernetic implant OR +1 challenge dice per 1 major cybernetic implant. Decreases difficulty: -1 difficulty per 1 mechanics/medicine OR -1 challenge dice per 1 technical/medical knowledge.
  9. But this doesn't cover any specific official rules about how cybernetics is affected by shapechanging and vice versa, which is what I'm asking specifically. Seemingly, no such rules actually exist.
  10. Hello everyone. I've been trying to find out how shapechanging affects cybernetics and vice versa, there doesn't seem to be any rules covering this, and if so then I've missed it. Logically it would make sense that it would become more difficult to shapechange, furthermore the cybernetics would remain completely unchanged, as it's only the biological parts of the body that changes. It's also plausible to think that shapechanging might make them cease to function, especially because the shapechanger usually wouldn't have any technical or scientific knowledge about the cybernetic in question, where as such it's very likely that shapechanging would make it cease to function, quite possible permanently or until corrected. So are there any rules covering this and if so, do you have a reference? Thank you. //Inc.
  11. Actually, I'm not forgetting that one also needs range, and it's very possible that someone could be onboard the starship in question, then suddenly the force user is WITHIN range. Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates that you can't go from extreme to planetary scale, because there is IN FACT NO LIMIT on how many times you can activate the range upgrade. In fact, the planetary scale range section: "On a planet’s surface, personal scale range bands may suffice" note, it doesn't say it suffices - it's not an absolute statement, so in the event that it doesn't you'll need to use the planetary scale range. Additionally: "A good guideline is that close range on the planetary scale picks up where the extreme range of personal scale ends—it’s the next step in ranged bands". So most certainly, it's possible to go past the extreme range, especially because it's not the character actually moving him/herself, but something completely different. Since that planetary scale range begins AFTER personal extreme range, it's just the natural and logical next step to use the planetary scale. The real problematic question is, how many range bands are there from the planet's surface to where space begins (the planet's exosphere), especially because this is variable matter, as it's different from planet to planet. While considering that the planetary scale range operates on a large range scale, it's still usable for the purposes of determining how many increments from the short range to the intended target to be affectes is, with the caveat that it works with much large numbers than what the personal scale range does, and the fact that one would need to be able to somehow see it or sense it. I think it's important to consider the differences between the personal and planetary scale range bands, and the fact that planetary close range is only slightly farther than personal extreme range, it could be argued that those two ranges band be combined - which basically would make it easier and more appropriately balance it, because as they become one, then you know for one planetary range increment - you need to reach personal extreme range. So 1 force point with 3 range upgrades would confer 1 planetary scale range increment. In the event that the force user actually can somehow see or sense the object to be moved, then it would proceed as dictated by the rules, unless there are specific rules that override this. There is also another very important factor that needs to be in the equation, and this is if the user is on the surface of a planet or in space. A few examples, using the personal extreme range and planetary close range, as the same. Example #1 A force rating 2 force user, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 4 force points, then: Activation: 1 Point: Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8 Range upgrades: 1 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary close range Example #2 A force user with a force rating of 3, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 6 force points, then: Activation: 1 Point: Strength upgrades: 3 Points - Silhoette size 12 Range upgrades: 2 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary short range Example #3 A force user with a force rating 3, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 6 force points, then: Activation: 1 Point: Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8 Range upgrades: 3 Points - Personal extreme range or planetary medium range Example #4 A force user with a force rating 4, with all strength (4) and all range (3) upgrades, and who get 8 force points, then: Activation: 1 Point: Strength upgrades: 2 Points - Silhoette size 8 Range upgrades: 5 Points - Personal extreme range or beyond planetary extreme range In example 4, notice that it goes beyond the planetary extreme range, it could very well constitute the point of where one on the surface is able to affect what he or she can somehow see or sense in space which is close enough to the planet which the force user is on. Most capital class starships that are close enough to the planet can be seen without any kind of aid. Just for reference: Planetary Scale Range: Close Range: On planetary scale it's slightly farther than extreme range in personal scale, and it can cover everything from a few dozen meters up to several kilometers in distance between two points. In space, close range is the metaphorical “knife fight” range, in which dogfights between snubfighters or high-performance airspeeders take place. Short range On planetary scale is anything up to roughly several dozen kilometers away. In space, short range is just out of dogfighting range and beyond the range of most starfighter Medium Range: On the surface of a planet or inside a planet’s atmosphere, something is within medium range if it is within roughly fifty kilometers. In space, something may be within medium range at a somewhat longer distance, up to a few hundred kilometers. Long range: On a planet’s surface can be anywhere from a hundred to two hundred kilometers away. In space, however, long range can be up to several thousand kilometers away. Extreme Range: On a planet’s surface, extreme range is the far edge of a vehicle’s scanners. In space, extreme range is likewise beyond the range of almost all starship weapons, even those mounted on capital ships. In that case, they actually need something that represent someone's strength in the force, because without it, then everyone is arbitrarily just as strong as any other force sensitive, the only difference being how good they are at using the force. Because, then for instance Anakin being the chosen one and the one supposed to be the strongest connection to the force and the one with the best potential, but technically under the system, ANYONE could become just as strong with the force him, including reach his potential given by the prophecy. It's like I said, the rules specifically states it's ones ability to use the force, just like any of the 6 other core characteristics, are abilities that allows one to interact with others and the world they live in. So most certainly force rating can be perceived as one's strength and connection with the force, and not just one's skill with the force, and more over, force rating isn't described as a skill.
  12. @penpenpen Well, a dark sider according to the rules, can't actually use light side points, and spending the destiny point to be allowed to use them will still make the force use dark sided, which means a dark sider can't use the light side of the force - it means it's become ultimately harder to use the light side of the force, being it's impossible, which actually is incorrect according to lore. It has never been impossible for dark siders to use the light side of the force, just much harder. Which essentially is their penalty, that they can never use the light side of the force, and if they want to be able to, they have to stop using force powers until they've redeemed themselves, not that I agree with that it should be this way, because I don't, but thats essentially their penalty for going dark side. Also, making it so that it requires a destiny point to use dark side points as a light sider, is in my opinion a big mistake, because it does make it harder to use the dark side, where in fact it's supposed to be easier - and just because the point distribution on the dice makes the dark side more accessible, doesn't make it any easier, as you still need the destiny point. Making it so it requires a destiny point to use the light side of the force as dark sider, is a step in the direction, but not necessarily the best way to reflect it being more difficult to use the light side of the force, especially when considering that when a dark sider tries to use the light side points even with a destiny points, it's still becomes a dark side force power, which essentially means, that a dark sider will never use the light side of the force, even despite it's never been that way. Dark siders should definitely be able to use the light side of the force, but should be harder. Perhaps, require discipline check when the destiny point has been spent, to allow the dark sider to at least attempt to use the light side points as a light sided force power - this way it's harder for the dark sider, but not impossible, and light sider can much more easily fall to the dark side.
  13. If you're saying 3 to be able to lift Silhoette size 4 x2 with the force points, then yes, you're correct, otherwise no. Because... Base power - 1 point. 4x Strength Upgrades - 1 4x Strength Upgrades - 1 ...so in total 3 points. My point above remains, this exactly why it becomes absurd, imbalanced and very easily get to a point where it breaks the scale of use, including not being consistent with the lore. ...does it seem reasonable that a force user with a force rating of 4 and 4 strength upgrades, potentially can be able to lift an object of silhoette size 28 - what could something of that size be and when do we ever see that happening? As established above, a death star or a small moon has a silhoette size of 10, so something with a silhoette size of 28, would be something of the size of an extremely large planet, if not even larger than that. I do not for second believe that this is consistent with the lore of Star Wars. When the game rules allows for breaking the scale, it's indicator of imbalance and whatever is causing it needs to be adjusted OR everything else has to be adjusted accordingly. If you think otherwise, then please in game terms do explain why you think it's consistent with the lore, why you think it's balanced and why it makes sense for the rules to support something that breaks the scale of use? When I read the statblock for Darth Vader in the Dawn of Rebellion, his force move, the strength upgrade part, seems to be limited: "spend force points to increase the size of the object he can move to Silhouette 4.", to me that sounds like 4 strength upgrades, and that it's being limited to only increasing it to that size which equals the amount of strength upgrades, rather than being able to increase the max silhoette size based on the amount of strength upgrades and force points spent. Why would they word it that way? Is it possible, that they intended it to be limited this way, as opposed how it's actually worded in the core rulebook, that you can use an upgrade multiple times, so they really have intended it to more limited? If we're to apply the rules that states upgrades can be used multiple times, and that Vader's force move ability has 4 strength upgrades, then with him being a force rating 6 dark side force user, he could potentially move an object of silhoette size 44. I think the best way to correct this issue, would be to limit the amount of upgrades for each respective upgrade based on the force users force rating, but at the same time also change it so you only get the benefit of 1 upgrade and not for every upgrade you have of that type, so that it requires 1 force point for each upgrade that you decide to use. So if you wanted to use 4 strength upgrades, it would cost you 4 force points and you would only be able to increase the maximum silhoette size to 4, at the same time this would also require one to have a force rating of 4. Another option that is just as good, would be to only have one possible upgrade of each (Duration, Magnitude, Range, Strength, and so on ) for each power, have each upgrade work differently in relation to what would be balanced and would reflect lore best, then the amount of times you can put force points into activating the upgrade would be based on your force rating - like equal to the force users force rating. This way a force user of force rating 3 of with the strength upgrade, could activate the strength upgrade 3 times and thus be able to move something of silhoette size 3 - which would be way more balanced than what it currently is, further more it's also supported by lore as one would not be stronger than he or she actually is in the force.
  14. I'm sorry to say this to you, but the game quite explicitly states that force rating is a character's ability to use the force. It represents how strong one's connection to the force is. So it may very well be that the force doesn't have those limitations, but the force user most certainly does, which is represented by it's force rating. Otherwise the force using character should have an INFINITE amount of force rating, as the force is limitless and infinite. A force user's with a force rating of 1, would have a very weak connection to the force and would be considered having a weak ability to use the force. So one with an a force rating of one, most certainly should not be able to move an AT&AT walker, and how you get that force user with a force rating of 1 could potentially pull down a Star Destroyer I don't get. Because as far as I can see, the move power only has 4 strength upgrades, and the maximum amount of force points that would be possibility to generate would at best be 2, a star detroyer would have a silhoette of 8, thats twice the amount, and as such it would at minimum need a force rating of 2. But even then, a force user with a force rating of 2 being potentially able to pull down a star destroyer is just beyond absurd! That would effectively be like a very young padawan being able to potentially pull down a star destroyer - can you see and hear how absurd that seem and sounds when you put that in contrast to what the lore says? You're assuming that the only reason Luke fails, is because he believe's its too big - there may very well be other factors at play here too, such as him only having begun his training, so his grasp on the force and how to tap into it is at best very rough. Furthermore, if we just consider that the reason he fails is due to him not believing enough in himself or that he believes it's too big, that would fall under the category of his belief putting a limit on ability to use his connection to the force, which essentially would cap his force rating at something lower to represent his belief (even there are no actual mechanics for it). In game terms if we go by the force rating that FFG has provided Luke with (which I don't agree with), then he would have a force rating of 3 when Luke was in the cave on Degobah, which is more than enough for him to be able to do it even with 1 strength upgrade score, as he could get up to 6 force points, even if he only had a force rating of 2 he would still be able to do it, as an X-wing is a silhoette 3 starship, because all he would need would've been 4 force points, so he failed because he didn't get the needed amount of force points. However, if it was only a force rating of 1 either from being capped or it actually being physical his limit at the time, then even with the 1 strength upgrade, it would not be enough, as he could only get 2 force points. Furthermore, it's well within the rules to rule that the force user will suffer strain if the object to be moved is big enough to warrant it. So even if he was strong enough force rating-wise with the 1 strength, it would still be strenous for him, and as the strain keep draining him each turn, he begins to doubt himself and believe it's too strong, and it actually just might've been at the current time for him, especially when considering he had only really begun his training. This would it would make sense even with the example above with Luke, even if Luke only had the force rating of 2 and the 1 strength upgrade, because he would've still have been able to do it, even when having to pay to use the upgrade with every use of the strength upgrade. Of course if his force rating was only 2 and 3, he would've had to get the maximum amount of points from both dices as would need 4 force points, and thats not impossible to occur, just less likely. If he had a force rating of 3 as FFG suggest he had at the time, then it would've been even more likely for him to get the needed amount of points. The most likely reason why he failed IN GAME TERMS was because of the strain he suffered while attempting to move it, and made the conscious choice to give up, because he felt it was too strenuous for him at the current time with his current force rating - and perhaps it was, whether it was to big or not in his mind, it still a strenuous task he has to do over an extended amount of time. If I remember correctly, the suggested strain amount to suffer per round, is the silhoette rating of the object intended to be moved. With the X-wing being a silhoette 3 starship, then that would 3 strain per round. As a human he would've had 10 + willpower, at minimum 12, so between 12 at 14 would be reasonable. That is only 4 game turns at best, that would be 9-12 strain suffered, and as he was still concious albeit seemingly very fatigued, he didn't go over his strain threshold limit. The point is, that even the game could still narratively support it if it had such a limitation. Why you'd want it to be possible for a force user of a force rating of 1 to be to potentially able to pull down a star destroyer, or being able to move an AT&AT walker, to me seems like you want a very unbalanced game and something that actually isn't true to the lore, though in your mind it is true to the lore. Because I really can't see no other reason why'd you want to try and make it seem possible that someone who's just barely sensitive to the force, to potentially be able to pull down a star destroyer. I really do think they should make it cost 1 force point per upgrade one wants to activate and that you only get the benefit that individual upgrade, as opposed to getting the benefit of "for every upgrade of the same that one has". It is extremely unbalanced, because if we scale this just a bit, it should be apparent that it's very unbalanced, just take a look at the example below. Example. A force user of force rating of 3, with 4 strength upgrades, can with 4 strength upgrades at maximum move something with a silhoette size of 20, I don't even know what a silhoette size of 20 is, but it breaks the scale of use. All it requires is 6 force points generated, even with it being more unlikely, it's still very much so possible, basically for every force point less generated, the potential silhoette size drops by 4. A star detroyer is silhoette size 8. A super star destroyer is silhoette size 9. A death star or a small moon is silhoette size 10. ...so something bigger than this is on the scale of a planet, and considering the increases aren't linear but rather exponential, then something of that size could be something like a solar system. The reason it breaks the scale of use, is because there is no use for being able to move something of a silhoette size of 20 or above. And consider if the user had an FR of 4 instead of 3, then effectively it could've been a silhoette size of 28, and just steadily increases the potential with 8 for every force rating increase after force rating 1. If that doesn't seem absurd to you, I don't know what does, but it should give a sufficient idea about why the lore doesn't support this. Because if it did, we would see so many force users capable of lifting much larger with ease, but we don't. Furthermore, whats the point being able to break the scale of of use? Like for instance being able to move planets. You can support all you want - that it should be the way it is now, but then you're also supporting something thats quite absurd and quite imbalanced, and if you don't find being able to potentially move something with a silhoette size of 20 with a force rating of 3 and 4 strength upgrades imbalanced and absured, then I don't what will.
  15. OP doesn't seem to think so, and I will do agree that the idea behind upgrading the skills is flexible, but at the same time it also makes it bulky and more complex. While it does a good job at capturing the lore, it also can cause a disconnect. Because consider this, does it fit the lore that a force user who's weak in the force (FR1), can be able to, albeit unreliably lift and move an AT&AT Walker? Thats what is possible with the current system, because all thats necessary is that the character has taken the basic power and 4 strength upgrades, and then roll 2 force points - no matter the side. Just for a total of 65 xp, and the character could even start with it. Skill with the force shouldn't make you able to do things that your force rating wouldn't suggest that you can do. Having a force power upgraded should allow you to make more efficient use of the force power you have available, but not make you stronger in the force. It's like this analogy, just because you're using higher quality fuel, that doesn't make your vehicle able to move at 4x the max speed that it normally could - this essentially what the vanilla system allows, and that in my opinion is very disconnected from lore. It may be that they removed the force rating table from the final release of EoTE, because they realized that it wasn't as simple, but that was also an indicator that something was off, and they should've corrected it. What I've pointed out is exactly what is wrong with the system with regards to the disconnect that is created, they should've put limits on how many upgrades you can activate, like it costing 1 force point to activate each strength upgrade. Essentially, the above problem comes from getting more output for the same cost, like activating 4 strength upgrades at the cost of 1, where had it been close to activating 4 strength upgrades at cost 4 force points, then you wouldn't be able to see a force user of FR1 be able to lift an AT&AT Walker just because the force user has 4 strength upgrades, because the force user wouldn't be able to gether enough force power to actually activate all strength upgrades necessary to move the AT&AT Walker - this particular force user would only be able to lift something of silhouette size of 1 or less, because the force user simply wouldn't be able to generate enough force points to activate all 4 strength upgrades with only one force dice available.
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