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Ockh

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  1. Like
    Ockh got a reaction from Gilarius in Y so serious?   
    Performance update on my list posted above. It has limitations that some lists and/or a skilled player will exploit mercilessly. 
    In the last two days I've gone 3/3 with the list. It does well when I can lure them into a joust where the Grays can shoot on turn 2 or 3. The lure is Wedge. If they don't take the bait, if I stuff up my approach and the Grays don't get a TL, or if they have some way to nullify TLs (i.e. Kagi), then I'm stuffed.
    I had a notable loss to another Rebel list with 3 X-wings with torps. The player simply outflew me on the approach and used his higher initiative pilots to erase a Gray in the joust while Wedge and Dutch were too far away. He then followed up by closing to range 1 of Wedge and Dutch. By the end he had taken out most of my ships, and I had only loosed 1 torp all game.
    I had another notable total loss against a list with Kagi, who is a hard counter to this list. Kagi hung out in the corner, sucked up all the TLs, neutering the Grays and Dutch, and I just couldn't reach Kagi before Redline and Whisper had made a mess of my ships. My key mistake was to set up Wedge and Dutch on the opposite corner to Kagi. I should have set up opposite and run him down ASAP.
    Also, Juke Phantoms and Defenders ruin Grays.
    With more practise (and skill!) I could probably perform better, but I can't see this list being terribly competitive.
    So yeah, I think @MasterShake2's original list is superior. Sure, a 4-ship torp joust is intimidating, but Y-Wings are too predictable, and the Grays are too low Initiative to reliably get the initial joust TLs they need. The 2 X-Wing & 2 Y-Wing gives the flexibility my list lacks.
    I'd be interested in others' experience with similar lists.
  2. Like
    Ockh got a reaction from Elkerlyc in Y so serious?   
    Performance update on my list posted above. It has limitations that some lists and/or a skilled player will exploit mercilessly. 
    In the last two days I've gone 3/3 with the list. It does well when I can lure them into a joust where the Grays can shoot on turn 2 or 3. The lure is Wedge. If they don't take the bait, if I stuff up my approach and the Grays don't get a TL, or if they have some way to nullify TLs (i.e. Kagi), then I'm stuffed.
    I had a notable loss to another Rebel list with 3 X-wings with torps. The player simply outflew me on the approach and used his higher initiative pilots to erase a Gray in the joust while Wedge and Dutch were too far away. He then followed up by closing to range 1 of Wedge and Dutch. By the end he had taken out most of my ships, and I had only loosed 1 torp all game.
    I had another notable total loss against a list with Kagi, who is a hard counter to this list. Kagi hung out in the corner, sucked up all the TLs, neutering the Grays and Dutch, and I just couldn't reach Kagi before Redline and Whisper had made a mess of my ships. My key mistake was to set up Wedge and Dutch on the opposite corner to Kagi. I should have set up opposite and run him down ASAP.
    Also, Juke Phantoms and Defenders ruin Grays.
    With more practise (and skill!) I could probably perform better, but I can't see this list being terribly competitive.
    So yeah, I think @MasterShake2's original list is superior. Sure, a 4-ship torp joust is intimidating, but Y-Wings are too predictable, and the Grays are too low Initiative to reliably get the initial joust TLs they need. The 2 X-Wing & 2 Y-Wing gives the flexibility my list lacks.
    I'd be interested in others' experience with similar lists.
  3. Like
    Ockh reacted to Tbetts94 in 2.0 Fat Turret Experiment   
    Han is definitely good. Super tanky and hits like a truck. Pair him with Rebels best pilot in the game you got two great pieces. 
     
    I just played a TTS tourney game on Hexiled Gaming today, Scott will probably edit it and put it up on YouTube tomorrow. 
    I’m 5-0 with the list. 
  4. Like
    Ockh got a reaction from Ryfterek in Twist on the Y Torp lists   
    I'm not sure Dutch needs Expert Handling and the R4. They both perform a similar function. With the R4, he can red barrel roll and clear the stress with a 1-2 manoeuvre next turn. I'd drop Expert and spend the points elsewhere, or keep Expert Handling and upgrade the R4 to and R3. I find R3 on Dutch good as his first lock is for his buddy, and the R3 lock is for him, allowing torp shots on two targets for the price of one TL.
  5. Like
    Ockh got a reaction from vladamex in Y so serious?   
    I played this variant the other day with success - went 2-0 (albeit not against top-tier lists and me flying Wedge poorly):
    T-65 X-wing - •Wedge Antilles - 61
        •Wedge Antilles - Red Two (52)
            Proton Torpedoes (9)
            Servomotor S-foils (Open) (0)
    BTL-A4 Y-wing - •“Dutch” Vander - 53
        •“Dutch” Vander - Gold Leader (42)
            Proton Torpedoes (9)
            R4 Astromech (2)
    BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gray Squadron Bomber - 43
        Gray Squadron Bomber - (32)
            Proton Torpedoes (9)
            R4 Astromech (2)
    BTL-A4 Y-wing - Gray Squadron Bomber - 43
        Gray Squadron Bomber - (32)
            Proton Torpedoes (9)
            R4 Astromech (2)
    Total: 200/200

    View in the X-Wing Squad Builder
    Replacing Luke with Dutch reduces flexibility and late game manoeuvrability if/when Wedge goes down. But it means four ships with protons, and Dutch can hand Wedge a target lock meaning he should be able to double mod his two torpedoes.
    I scattered asteroids around the centre about range 1.5 from each other. I place the two Grays at I2, so they go down early, which enabled me to influence where my opponent placed, and then put down Dutch and Wedge in response. The Grays I placed at about range 3 from one side of the board heading into the asteroid field, but leaving room for them to 2-turn away if necessary. I then placed Dutch and Wedge at least range 3 from the Grays. 
    The plan was to bait the opponent into attacking Dutch and Wedge, who are the greater threat (Wedge with torpedoes is terrifying, so is usually target #1), rolling them forward slowly while the Grays flanked through the asteroid field at higher speed, looking for TLs and torp shots. In both games they got torps off around turn 3 or 4. Dutch moves a bit ahead of Wedge to hand him a TL. Tactic worked well both games.
    I'm yet to master how to re-engage after the first pass, but as long as I have a TL, then a red K-turn with a Y-Wing to get a torpedo shot works fine. They don't have to be double modded to hit HARD. I tried to keep the Grays and Wedge + Dutch as separate elements that cover each other to prevent arc dodgers from avoiding all arcs. But I didn't fly against Soontir or Guri et al, so don't yet know how they'd go against them.
    I definitely need more practise with this list, but I see potential. I'll be taking it to a tournament in a few weeks, and will report back on results.
    I also welcome any tips on tactics.
  6. Like
    Ockh reacted to Green Knight in Y so serious?   
    I played vs this list during Swiss at Nordics.
    It was a tough one to crack, but I got a lucky block with my ARC vs Wedge, and some good rolls that took out Luke.
    It is, however, an interesting concept for a rebel 4-ship list. To me anyway. Bc I love Luke+Wedge AND I love torpedoes
  7. Like
    Ockh reacted to MasterShake2 in Y so serious?   
    So it was becoming apparent that I would need to do some reevaluating in terms of Rebels in X-Wing 2.0.  I wasn't that I had no success, but Scum and Empire was significantly better in key areas and it was hard to overcome the problem when confronted with a skilled player using that toolset.  In short it was time to analyze and identify the problem.  Part of it was that I was not flying great, so I trying to put together something basic and something that I could fly in a wave restricted event. 
     
    Rebel Synergy is Dead- for now, at least, Rebel synergy is DoA.  Some of it is costing, but really, it's just a case that it frequently requires maintaining a semi-predictable formation and often being forced into a joust, but not quite being good enough to win the joust against squads built for it mostly because of how much weaker the defensive tech in Rebels is now vs. 1.0.  Rebels also have some really anomalous holes in capabilities such as the lack of way to buff the attacks of cheap generics that every other faction currently has (in some cases multiple options).
     
    Rebels don't have a super ace- The closest you really get is Luke, maybe Wedge, but X-Wing isn't quite good enough to allow these aces to carry the way you need a super ace to carry.  The I6 offerings are pretty weak.  Wedge is decent enough for his cost, but not spectacular, Han is amazing, but probably over half your list, Fenn Rau is comically overcosted to the point of unusability (wohoo, 52pt support ship!). 
     
    In short, the prospects for really interesting combos that can't just be casually torn apart by a skilled player was very lacking and there really wasn't a pilot that I was confident is just dumping upgrades on to carry the team outside of Han, but he's a lot of your list.  So, back to basics.  I started breaking what was and wasn't working on a much more fundamental level. 
     
    The winner is-  looking at the numbers the various jousting options for rebels were throwing up, there was a clear winner and not by a small margin.  A Y-Wing with Proton Torpedoes and an R4 Astromech.  It beat basically everything and it's performances weren't sporadic with some great and some terrible games.  It was very consistently good with the occasional amazing performance.  This puzzled me, because the first list I threw it in was a lark, but I dropped it in a few more just because I had the Y's on hand.  Clearly, scientific method, see if the performance of the Y-Wing was an anomaly or if it was actually the strongest generic platform in the faction.
     
    This, naturally raises the question of "what list do I put it in".  All Y-Wings has a lot of problems, and they're very similar problems to the all TIE bomber or whatever lists, in that you're very inflexible, your options are limited and you don't have an end game.  Since the points worked out perfectly, the best wingmen seemed to be Luke and Wedge.  The justification was very straightforward:  Both Luke and Wedge could present problems late game if the opponent left them alone and their higher Initiative with more reposition access added key flexibility to set up the joust I wanted.  I didn't have points for anything but the free S-Foils on them, but my concern level about that was pretty minimal since my personal observation is that these pilots are super strong if kept cheap, but will struggle to justify their presence the more points you dump on them simply because Wedge has no defensive tech whatsoever and Luke is solid defensively, but suffers if he's confronted with I6's or I5's with a larger bid and good reposition options.  In short, a pair of pocket closers, ships that can end the game, but that you don't suffer too badly if they're lost.
     
    Luke Skywalker — X-Wing 62 Servomotor S-Foils 0 Ship Total: 62     Wedge Antilles — X-Wing 52 Servomotor S-Foils 0 Ship Total: 52     Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32 Proton Torpedoes 9 R4 Astromech 2 Ship Total: 43     Gray Squadron Bomber — Y-Wing 32 Proton Torpedoes 9 R4 Astromech 2 Ship Total: 43  
    So the experimentation began.  I tried to play against a little bit of everything, Rebel 4-5 ship lists, scum jank, various flavors of imperial efficiency and aces and a wide array of different skill levels including some of the strongest players in the local meta.  Game after game, those Y-Wings were just brutally effective.  A huge part of it was the torps naturally turning a hit into a crit, so those faceups become a problem really fast and the "salt in the wound" is getting a Fuel Leak from the first torp that the second torp is almost garaunteed to trigger before you can do anything about it.  They have a solid amount of hp, the torps hit unbelievably hard and the addition of Barrel Roll adds a lot of utility to have them function as blockers.  The biggest feature that differentiated the Y-Wings was that I basically never had to debate whether I wanted to fire a torp.  They have Reload, there's always more torps.  Spends them like it's an Olympic event.  I've dumped torps into Academy pilots on at least 3 occasions and the accademy pilot regretted it's poor life choice every time.  You can also fly to engineer a block while reloading or just reload if you're down a torp while blocking because you're not contributing damage anyways.  And with the R4, you're not worried about clearing the stress.  So far the list is undefeated which I find hilarious because it basically has no gimmick or super efficiency buff.  It's not trying to do anything crazy, it just has good and reasonably well costed platforms.
     
    I've been refining my approach in terms of tactics and how to split the enemy joust or force them to commit to one element and have the other drop in behind.  I've also refined a lot of when I spend locks.  Unless I really need a kill shot and the extra dice will make the difference, I'm pretty confident not spending on 2 hits, and I almost never spend on 3 unless I'm going to have to start reloading anyways.  Keeping your locks allow for a lot of versatility and a hit +crit is a perfectly acceptable result for a low 40s jouster in 2.0 especially if it's a range 3 that they aren't getting the extra die against.  It's almost certainly not the best 2.0 list out there (god I hope not), but most of the games haven't been that close.  I had 1 where Luke was the only ship left, at full health against 2 enemy ships at 1.  He killed both of them without taking damage.  I also had a game where a Y-Wing finished off a Reaper the same turn it killed Luke, but the Y-Wing was still almost at full health behind the reaper and the Reaper had just slooped, so it was definitely taking a torp next turn even if it survived.  In short, it was probably dead even if the Y-Wing didn't score a full string with a Direct hit.  I've had 2 games where I tabled my opponent without losing a ship.
     
    It would be more than appropriate to say, I've been impressed by the versatility and hitting power of the Y-Wing with torps, which is why it absolutely amazes me that nobody is talking about it.  It might be a relic of 1.0 where players only ever really used Y-Wings orbiting around the battlefield firing turrets and where the torpedoes were really crap and expensive and you only had 1 of them, maybe 2 if you took extra munitions, so this type of Y-Wing even being playable, much less good, was absolutely unheard of. 
     
    TL:DR- Y-Wings with torps and an R4 are a remarkably solid contender for the best generic in faction for it's points
  8. Like
    Ockh reacted to MasterShake2 in Y so serious?   
    Kind of.  What makes the list hard to play against for some people and also not that easy to pick up is that aces are simultaneously completely disposable and utterly indispensable.  I had a game against Whisper, Vermil and Sai where I basically traded Luke and Wedge for Whisper and Vermil which sounds a little dumb until you realize this left me with 2 full health Y-Wings behind Sai and they just chased after her firing torps and reloading until the shuttle dropped.  A big part of the list strategy is that people will try to take out or trade for the aces and being able to effectively bait or decide when you want to give one up is a big deal.  It also very noteworthy that much of the list revolves around throwing attacks that can't be blocked completely if they roll a full string and Wedge does that with no upgrades and at high Initiative, so he functions as a pseudo torpedo ship, just lacking 1 on the high end of damage, but not needing a target lock.  Luke is also just a fantastic damage sponge that everyone wants to kill which can take pressure off the Y's while opponents mess around with him. 
     
    One of my last games against Kavil, Old Teroch and Guri, I tabled my opponent and only gave up half points on 1 of the Y-Wings.  Luke messed around with Guri and just kept maneuvering to block to stall her.  By the time my opponent realized this and tried to speed away from Luke, the main joust had already been decided.  Specifically, 1 Y-Wing blocked Kavil at range 1 of Wedge and range 2 of the second Y and Kavil was turned into confetti while doing no damage.  Old Teroch had to run away and swing around a rock, but the blocking Y for Kavil had already locked him assuming Kavil would die and was able to quickly swing into pursuit and torp him as he appeared from behind an asteroid, then maneuver for a block that the other Y used for a second torp which dropped him.  It was at this time Guri rejoined the fight with Luke chasing after her and I was able to repeatedly block her in the Y's as Wedge and Luke powered her down.
     
    The TL:DR version is that the list happily sacrifices aces to get board position or attrition edges, but requires the potential threat of the aces to present a real dilemma to the other player that you can use to split attention on key turns.
  9. Like
    Ockh got a reaction from Stryker359 in Putting the X-Wing back into X-Wing   
    Great write up. Thanks. I'm also flying X-Wings and giving Norra in a Y-Wing a spin too. Still early days, and much to learn in new 2.0 dynamics (especially after getting hammered by a FOTM Boba + Guri list), but enjoying it so far.
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