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Posts posted by Mobiusllls

  1. A Clash is a duel. But since they tought that their written duel was a ritualized combat (Its not.) They made the distinction(with no mechanical difference, because its not ritualized). So answering your question, yes Lions tremble when someone ask them to 1x1.

    On the more specific part of changing scenes and deal with strife. I would rule that is the same scene, but that two guys are special and they use different rules of the system, instead of 1x1 in a skirmish like any other game would do. Stupid on my opinion, but it is what it is.

    About the clash being a "one turn duel"

    Here comes what makes sense:
    "duel does not last a fixed number of rounds. At the end of each round, if either character achieved their objective, the duel ends and proceeds to Phase 3: Resolution.
    Otherwise, the duel returns to Phase 2:Perform Actions and continues for an additional round."

    one round of duel becomes several.

    Honestly if that its not RAW or RAI, I still would make Clashes go forever until someone interferes,withdraw or win.

  2. On 03/11/2017 at 10:00 AM, Doji Namika said:

    They used a similar system in Ex3 too. Which is why I can heartily recommend zones! It leaves the underlying mechanics intact and when running a more complex encounter your brain won't be leaking out of your ears when you look at some ridiculously complex diagram that tries to track the relative distances 10+ combatants are from each other.


    Is "Ex3" exalted?

    If it is, Range in Exalted is irrelevant and not a big deal. you choose spears, bows, guns or whatever for the mottif, not for mechanical benefits.  ****, The most powerfull combat offensively in the game is unarmed (go grapple).

    To those who dont know what is Exalted: its a game where you play characters given powers from the gods. People that can literally destroy an army alone. The balance of the game is the fact that the whole world is against you, so you being actually overpowered on your own system is no big deal. Its by design.

    Edit: He ll is a censored word.

  3. On 08/11/2017 at 10:02 PM, Ultimatecalibur said:

    Akodo Commander was overpowered and the nerf was needed. The Commander had no fear of Strife in Skirmishes and Mass Battles. Now it can turn Strife into a benefit but not for free.

    Its still overpowered. 1 Fatigue wont change anything.

    Still would like to see a change were they dont become weaklings in duels. or at least make way more overpowered but only working on mass battles. That would make sense.

    "oh look, The lion killed 10 guys and now he has 10 fatigue1" Yeah, Big deal, and the other 10 bushis are dead.

    On 08/11/2017 at 8:43 PM, AtoMaki said:

    I mostly base my experiences on the 4th Edition Schools where the setup was (largely) working all across the board.  

    I also like this, makes the school more distinct. Could be done with exclusive techniques, but i dont know if they are going this way. Only problem with 4E was some schools getting 2 attacks on rank 4 instead of 3. But to me was never a issue (since it was not a D&D game with CR anyway)

  4. I said before all the updates that i tought "I strike" every turn was the optimal action.

    Dont go for fatigues, go for the kill or debuffs. Make your enemy roll fitness to escape your lethality.

    It may be even better if you are a Kakita.

    That said . I dont think straight out removing is the better option.

  5. On 09/11/2017 at 7:34 PM, Kyros Skyfall said:

    @Mobiusllls actually, since the update, wounds are not wounds anymore : it's ''fatigue'' now. so what we say is still relevant, and by the way : what do you think of it? (though you might whant to read the update first)

    It was posted before the update. i guessed that they would change name and fluff before they did it.

    I'm against. Wounds was fine, people were projecting their expectations on it for no good reason on my opinion.

    Must say that i'm not against "fatigue" or whatever (despite being strange you spending  weeks to recover from fatigue alone). Just didn't saw a worth reason to change.

  6. 2 hours ago, Exarkfr said:

    Not anymore.
    Update removed free drawing/sheathing upon setting stance.

    I found the wording weird so i'm not 100% sure, if thats it. (The grip part confuses me.) But in any case, in water stance you wont lose a turn, and you can do what i said.

    I would guess that the  Mirumoto School will end up giving Earth and Water (Mirumoto family, Mirumoto Bushi, will Start with water 3 earth 2 fire 2 before choosing any ring to increase. Which would help up them to dual wield as fast as possible using a good ring from their character.


  7. 8 minutes ago, GaGrin said:

    It's funny, I remember getting really angry with DnD for years precisely because of this and then one day it just *clicked*.  You look at the old editions and you basically only use hps for attacks or other threats you can see coming and everything else is save-or-die*. I think where this abstraction breaks down is out of combat, stuff like being stabbed while you're asleep or why healing spells suddenly really suck.  It's not really the hit point mechanism that's the problem, it's not being able to follow what's happening in the fiction from one moment to the next because different parts of the mechanism imply different things.

    *or other nastiness

    Actually its not a problem with DND. You read the wounds description, at least before they changed in this beta, and you would see physical harm, bruises and such.

    You dont read this description in DND. At least on 5E that is the most recent on my mind it literally says something like "its the mixture of physical and mental durability, your will to live" and stuff like that. You are not being cleaved in half by attacks and sustaining them because you are Level 8 and not 1. You are being battered around until you are cleaved and die. (Your HP reaches a negative or at least 0).

    Biggest problem of Hitpoints in DND is that  people dont bother to read because they think they already understand it. Not long ago actually had this discussion with the GM and when he got the book to check out he was literally impressed.

    Like i said before Wound was fine, People were projecting what they TOUGHT wounds should be.

  8. On 29/10/2017 at 11:10 PM, Sephyr79 said:

    The update improves some things and gives some options between the two versions, but...

    I still don't get the Opportunity boosts. Drawing and readying an extra weapon? That  is  only going to help the  odd Mirumoto, and even he  might  prefer to keep it sheathed to do a second  iai in the  next turn.

    I get the feeling they are sort of running  out of  ideas  on OPP improvements. "This  is too strong, this is already some  oter  kata's  bonus...eh, draw another sword, that's good."

    He can draw at the beggining of the stance, use iai on the second blade, and now he have both weapons ready without using opportunity.

    But since japanese blade is made of paper and cant parry, beats me why the Mirumoto would use two weapons.

  9. 7 hours ago, SideshowLucifer said:

    I would ream amy samauri who showed up in armor to a formal dual. That honor loss and glory loss would become rather significant when my courtiers got done and the duel would be rescheduled to an appropriate amount of time for my opponent to reflect on his shame while adhering to the rules.

    In general there is not a rule that you cant duel in armor, and there is a historic of duels in the past that went with armored duelist, so the samurai can make a good case. It just go against tradition and maybe common sense. But a courtier can certainly try and do that, the other duelist would probably be against, afraid of looking like he is backing down for a challenge. Duels do get rescheduled due to events all the time, sometimes it may look like one of the duelists is running from it. A good point to remember while we discuss Iaijutsu Duels, is that usually they take some time since the challenge to actually happen.

    I Would suppose that even on the classic winter court case, where the lords are already there and can give permission to a duel right away, they would at least give one or two days for preparations or other things like that.

  10. I wouldn't call a entire unit of Kenshizen (A Kenshizen is a elite bushi to the very least) weak on the battlefield. They are just worth more at duels. But yeah, Classic Crane tactics is the General (probably a Duelist) challenging the other General to a duel (and he is probably not a duelist). The minimum you get is reducing enemy morale because the general is not ready to die for his army, if it works, well you should have the advantage based on the fact that your Clan proud itself on having the best duelists in Rokugan.

    I dont disagree with either of you on these points, like i said, i just dont think that Kakita Bushi should come off the chargen with Earth 1 and Water 1. That would give them a extremely low "health pool" to a Bushi. and this would effect them real bad at current duel rules.

  11. 5 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

    You do realize this proves my point right?

    Its movie fighting for entertainment.

    You know this is a fantasy setting inspired on exactly this kind of stuff and that Rokugan is not Japan, i dont need to tell you that.

    Like yourself said, this is how Rokugan is, if they want to change, they have at least to do it public. "We are changing this stuff and here is why."

    6 hours ago, Ultimatecalibur said:
    14 hours ago, shosuko said:


    A Kakita vs Murimoto duel would likely be by rules a Warrior's Duel rather than a straight Iaijutsu duel.

    By law its a iaijutsu duel and they always used the iaijutsu skill for drawing their weapon. on this edition, they can also use iaijutsu to ready the second weapon.

    14 hours ago, shosuko said:


    You would think - if it was really intrinsic to the law - that every clan would have a school dedicated to the practice, since it would obviously be a very important advantage to have if you wanted to do anything legally...

    Every school has its own Iaijutsu (They learned from kakitas, be it stealing or not) while not being the focus, Every clan groom its own duelists to be Yojimbos and deal with courts. The danger from the Kakita is not only having the heritage of creating Iaijutsu(and being good on it) but also the fact that every single one of their Kakita Bushi are actually duelists.

    Like you said yourself, the others school focus on having the majority of their bushis being good where the real fight happens, not on the court.

    14 hours ago, shosuko said:

    *While the fiction recently depicted a Niten duelist actually drawing both weapons... this is highly unrealistic.  You typically use 2 hands to draw a weapon into a strike as you need to both clear the sword from the saya as early as possible to transition from a drawing motion to a cutting motion, and to lend enough power to the strike to cut.  It is called Sayabiki and is one of the more important skills in Iai.  Niten should start with both weapons drawn.

    I Agree with you. I Favor the old artworks of the Kakita X Mirumoto. Kakita ready to draw, Mirumoto in a weird stance with his 2 weapons. both standing close to each other, not defending themselves, not doing any footwork, not attacking. Thats the WHOLE POINT OF IAIJUTSU DUEL, not the actual iaijutsu (Funny is it not?) and then suddenly, both strike.

    Curiously, in this edition, the writers disagree with you. Read the Iaijutsu Technique and tell if that is not better for Mirumoti than it is for Kakita? You will use your weapon in a one handed stance. Okay, The Mirumoto only has 2 hands, so he will have to do that. You can only read one weapon per turn (unless you are in water stance.) well, that sounds like trouble for Mirumoto. But wait, you can draw one weapon and attack with iaijutsu on the other. If you dont want to do that, you can attack with iaijutsu (with both weapons on the sheat) and then draw a second weapon with opportunity. In the case you feel this idea of drawing both weapons stupid, ask the writers to change that.

    4th edition actualy agrees with you. The Mirumoto WILL use iaijutsu Skill on a Iaijutsu duel, just like anybody would in the mechanics, but they actually earn a bonus equal to their Kenjutsu at some point of their school progression. (Perhaps to simulate that the weapons are actually draw? dont know.)

    Now why they use Iaijutsu then? Well if a player asked me that, i would tell then that the stance of iaijutsu duels, restraining yourself and putting yourself in your enemy mercy the way that happens in a duel is alien to kenjutsu. That together with the stance that the Mirumoto does on duel, The Iaijutsu skill is the proper way to represent the attack.

    In any case, why can the Mirumoto do that and others cant? Well Tradition, Niten x Iaijutsu is one of those discussions that people on Rokugan love. Same way i would give bigger penalty to a Crane going to a duel in heavy armor than to a Crab. The Crab is kind of expected, despite still being a breach.

    In any case. Iaijutsu duel is the law of 4th Edition. Can be argued that is the Law of Rokugan in any case (4th edition is setting agnostic.) But it can be changed on this Edition. Like i said.I just want them to change it in a clear way.

  12. 2 hours ago, Kakita Toshiki said:

    As described in the original post, there is no such thing as an "Iaijutsu" duel beyond a persistent misunderstanding. 

    How is a misunderstanding if every duel rules is actually rules for Iaijutsu's Duels? Are the writers from past editions ******? (having a retardation is motive for censorship apparently.)

    Would make sense, if you are right.

    Honestly, Fortunately or Unfortunately, Iaijutsu on Rokugan has its own meaning and is completely different from Japan. You can speak about iai, iaijutsu,iaido, the meaning of it, origins and everything else. You would be speaking about the japanese one.

    Lets be clear, Iai is about drawing your sword and defending yourself in any situation or place. The Kakitas of first edition fighting by drawing and sheating their weapon at every single turn, kind of proves the point that Iaijutsu is just similiar do what we have on real world. not the actual samething.

  13. Anyone can draw a katana (or any weapon, if that matter) and attack at the same turn. No one will convince me  that this is not a quick draw. Even if you judge necessary to posses the Iaijutsu Kata to act on the description of a draw and strike in continuous flow. The kakita does have advantage on Iaijutsu Duels due to being able to have a crazy high severity that will acomplish the objective goal of the duel. (Hitting a critical of severity x).

    But i would rather be a Hida, take the penalty for being a disrespectful guy and appearing on my formal duel, that was decided three months ago, with heavy armor and have at least a -6 on the severity of the enemy strike, before i even get to roll fitness.

  14. "The biggest problem to Legend of Five Rings Beta is that Legend of Five Rings has a setting. We should ignore that little detail so we can have fun combats 1x1."

    I Actually dont have a problem with that. My first question when i read the book was exactly that. "Considering that the system dont care about iaijutsu at all. Does this means that Iaijutsu is not the official form of duel anymore?"

    The only actual mention of "Duel" in First edition, is a Combat opportunity when two HEROES meet each other on the battlefield (Combat is the Mass combat of that edition.). There is NO DUEL MECHANICS. a fight between two mans is resolved in a simple skirmish. this is by the way how EVERY SYSTEM that i know handles 1x1. They only change rules when you are talking about armies and mass combat in general.

    Before that appears Iaijutsu Duel as different part of skirmish, in the same chapter i believe.

    You see, the First edition of Legend of Five Rings had the same exact skeleton of 4E and this Beta (I can only talk of those that i know.) You Have Rings, Skills, Advantages and Disadvantages, Family, Clan, School, Skirmish, Mass Combat, Magic.

    What his beta doesnt have in similar to the past editions is Iaijutsu Duelling. Now the First Edition had that, because they tought that IAIJUTSU was a specific and special part of the setting. And in any other game, without house rules the way you would do a Iaijutsu Duel is rolling initiative. Who rolls better will win (Unless he miss, which depending on the system can be often or not.) But they decided to write a mechanic just for that. Only for that.

    So i will ask you some things You want a :

    2 hours ago, shosuko said:

    standardized dueling rules section which provides an all inclusive dueling rule set that allows for tests of martial skill through armed, unarmed, and iai and especially which also gives a streamlined and cohesive ruleset which would allow a duel of magic and words without deviating into arbitrary narratives with lackluster mechanics.

    What is stopping you from using Skirmish and Intrigue to achieve that? Remove completely the Duel section of the Beta and the Clash side bar, and wow, you earned some pages to maybe add more depth to the other mechanics. You even make easier on the designer in his effort to balance the game.

    Tell me whats the difference to argue with someone alone, with other people involved in the discussion and only with a public watching? You think a "Debate" between two persons is mechanically deeper than the usual intrigue? just like a Iaijutsu is mechanically deeper than rolling initiative to go first? Ok then by all means, specify what will be treated as a debate, what is the difference of simply two people arguing and then make rules that make sense. no, being a fun narrative mechanic is not enough, it has to make sense with the game itself.

    Tell me what changes when a Akodo and a Hida is fighting 1x1 on a Skirmish and then the Hida provokes a duel, beggining a clash, Tell me, how the rules of the universe change to these two fighters? Why now they are worrying about strife and finishing blow? Why Akodo lost his technique? Is it because the world thinks its too overpower for a clash!? If Akodo, who is not dumb, deny the duel, will people in game say that he fled from a duel with Hida, Despite killing him on a one x one without interference on a Skirmish?

    What is the purpose of Skirmish rules then? If every 1x1 is a clash (unless its not initiated by a challenge) that means that a clash can be interfered when a third party attack one of the involved, changing again the rules of the universe to a skirmish?

    The whole problem with Duel is the fact that rules to Duel shouldn't exist. an Informal duel is a skirmish 1x1. Simple as that.

    They only wrote duel mechanics because every edition before had Duel mechanics. Thats it, its part of the game. They just didn't notice the "Iaijutsu" always by the side of duel or duelling.

    And i strongly support rules for the Shugenja Duels (i will never remember the name for then) Despite being Politically irrelevant in COMPARISON to the main way to settle disputes in Rokugan (Read:Iaijutsu Duel). Only because i think they are cool, and you can make unique rules for two "wizards" battling each other. The important word here is unique. if its standardized, then whatever, a grappler will roll x, a wizard will roll y. both will be doing the same mechanics, and people will think that this is a great narrative system because they wrote a fluff for it.

  15. Not really. Lets suppose that the two bushis are fighting at rank 3 (Since you have heartpiercing strike). TN 4. Against someone in air stance TN 6. If you miss you get Dazed. Hard? picture your opponent using striking as air or center bonus.

    Increasing TN to not be hit will be tough on everyone and every technique. Just go Strike with the regular tn 2 and go for a common crit with 2 opportunities every turn.

  16. On 26/10/2017 at 2:29 AM, evileeyore said:

    However just because a character is described as "missing an eye" doesn't mean they suffer the mechanics of the "Lost Eye (Water)" disad.

    Understand the difference?

    I dont. how you courtier would gossip about my lost eye if i dont have a lost eye?

    A good mechanical system supports the narrative and a good narrative is supported by the mechanics. Both should be seen as one instead of opposite.

    Edit:Yeah the tall Hida cant reach stuff on the top shelf because he didnt bought the advantage.... despite being tall...


  17. 5 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

    I was under the impression it was specifically 'wrestling' but yeah...might be easier to retroactively make it just an 'unarmed bout'.

    Not everyone will have open hand style, but theoretically delivering any critical of severity 1+ should quality (dazed/immobilized/prone/etc).


    Yeah its pretty much "wrestling" on the traditional topaz. Unamed fight is actually grapple, despite people thinking on "striking" because it seems cooler.

  18. To be fair, depends on composure.(The amount of severity you will earn) But i agree Fire Stance is great. Problem would be, being interrupted by another finishing blow while you are racking up strife.

    26 minutes ago, WHW said:

    - In order to get the Super Finishing Blow, you need to keep a hand that totals to 3 successes and 2 opportunities. There are basically three ways to get that: be able to keep 5 dice, get some explosions (that usually come with strife), or roll the RAREST result that only appears on skill dice and has 1/12 chance to appear, the Success+Opportunity. Hard? Definitely. Now imagine having to punch through Air Stance, Striking as Air, or Center bonuses (or all three at once). 

    At 7k4 is pretty much common to get 3 sucesses and 2 opportunities. I do agree with you that at higher tn gets trickier. (But pretty much get trickier to everyone.)


  19. Only thing i tought that is close to what you guys are saying, Is basically make every turn give a x ammount of strife to the fighters and remove the Attack option from the duel. That way everything you do (provoke,center,use something) would happen in the factual staredown phase. you determine that once someone attacks the katana was draw and the duel "started". If the first to attack wins, Okay. if not you could give a huge bonus so the second guy would win on his attack.  if both guys suck, congratulations, draw.

    But also wouldnt work well with the chassis of the system. (at least would need more elaborate changes than the ones did in the first update.)

    19 hours ago, Kakita Toshiki said:

    1) Iaijutsu can easily be broken up (as FFG is doing now) into multiple pieces.  I would argue that these should reflect Iaido, and be limited by the skill the character channels the piece through rather than specific to dueling

    in any case, i dont see Iaijutsu being broken by FFG. what do you mean with that? You dont have a iaijutsu skill anymore (Unfortunately). They only put a kata before because people would miss it if this edition deleted the existence of Iaijutsu completely. now they gave us one more iaijutsu technique. We have three and its looking like this will be final to me.

    19 hours ago, Kakita Toshiki said:

    2) Duels are more interactive now (which is good) but lack the mental interplay one sees (and feels) at higher levels of conflict.  Watch a judo grandmaster's match, or two older practitioners circling one another, watching, waiting, then finally one moves.  The "techniques" they use are not that different from what any student does, but their timing and positioning is...something else entirely.

    Not sure. are we talking about Iaijutsu Duel? Or about what i would rather call a Clash? Clashes are actually great on the mental play front. The Iaijutsu duel (i hope) it will be decided on the first turn, so no biggie there. The only staredown phase that you have is the bet strife to go first part.  Of course that is lacking, they just updated a system made for another type of conflict and added the word Iaijutsu while changing the victory conditions.

    19 hours ago, Kakita Toshiki said:

    In some ways, a duel is a battle of wills in which both parties seek to open and hold on to opportunities long enough to exploit them.  That idea may be worth exploring in greater detail mechanically, given the options available in the dice mechanics.

    I dont know if they will add much stuff mechanically. It seems that they already stretched a lot by bringing back Iaijutsu as a thing.

  20. 16 hours ago, sushicaddy said:

    Throughout the fiction we see Kakita duelists portrayed as "weak" or "effeminate" in the eyes of other bushi.  It infuriates the Crab and Lion to have these slender artists routinely defeat them in duels, as they are not seen as warriors by those militaristic clans.  Kakita duelists ARE strange amongst the bushi of Rokugan.  I would submit that in many ways they have more in common with monk characters than other bushi.  Their ways are indeed strange to most other bushi, a sharp stiletto to be used on court, not a hammer to be used on the battlefield.  On the battlefield they win by clashing by individual samurai, not by cutting their way through hordes of ashigaru.  Daidoji iron warriors and Asahina archers are more at home on a battlefield that the duelist. The very fact that their main bushi school is one that is mostly useful in court shows what the true strength of the Crane is, in politics.  Politics and duels is how they keep the Lion and crab from wiping them out of existence, not so much their extreme prowess in the field of battle.

    Lets agree to disagree. Even if you consider that Kakita are effeminated in the eye of other bushi(I do not agree.) taking away their Earth ring bonus (that all the bushi have, due to being bushi, which makes sense) would actually make this a Fact. Kakitas would be weak and effeminated as supported by rules.

    No comment about the focus being on Iaijutsu and Politics, this is obviously correct, But i found stupid to think that the Crane are pushover on the battlefield, specially if you consider that on real life, maneuvering and having supplies is big part on winning wars and battles. Help me a bit, i was never a L5R nerd, arent the Crane lands really good? Think they would be fine on the supply part.

    35 minutes ago, WHW said:

    Pre-patch Kakita were pretty good at dueling, but they didnt play the Center game - the proper way to Crane duel was to keep attacking since turn 1 in Air Stance, and keeping your TN to be hit at ridiculous levels due to Striking As Air. If your opponent Centered instead of attacking you back, you should just provoke a Finishing Blow during Staredown - your TN to be hit of 5 or 6 should make any "keep 3" Finishing Blow simply whiff. 

    Its one way to go, didnt changed too much. Not sure if its the best one. Still think being a Hida is the best option. With a Kakita i would rather fish for criticals than to make the fight drag on, honestly.

  21. 17 hours ago, WHW said:

    Why do you think it's powerful? It is a non scaling attack, permanently capped at your Katana dmg (so 4) and your Katana Deadliness (so 5). It is harder to hit than a normal Strike, and as reward, it offers you a Critical with Severity of 5 - which will get reduced by 1 or more at least 90% of the time. This technique is a trap in hands of a non-Kakita users.

    If you succeed while performing a finishing blow, the deadliness of the critical strike you inflict is increased by your target’s strife instead of your bonus successes.

    If both sides have to bet strife to go first and win the duel... well, you see how this scales.

  22. Ok now you cant  ready weapons for free and iaijutsu rising blade is pretty much as good as a end game technique (to not say it appears broken good at first sight).

    not pointless anymore i guess.

    Edit:it seems you can actually draw on assessment, oh well.

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