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  1. Sorry for the delay, also still not great, but my glamour shots got lost a while ago when I lost my phone (my dropbox was full), and I've been too lazy to take nice ones again. https://imgur.com/a/Rh3RWCu https://imgur.com/a/JbT9rsQ
  2. Personally I think Warsprinter, Scuttling Horror, and Insatiable Hunger are all too strong. Warsprinter and Insatiable Hunger means Uthuk can sit beyond shooting range and wait for the perfect turn to engage from extreme ranges, and also can't reliably flank the zerkstar because it threatens a reform and charge 4 at 3 init. Scuttling Horror also means you can't reliably flank. Both Scuttling and Insatiable means Uthuk also dominate terrain. It's not that I don't think they can be countered. That isn't the determining factor of something being too strong, it is having a much higher chance to win from including a specific unit/upgrade. Those upgrades, combined with mathematically superior units in terms of damage and durability, make Uthuk feel above the curve for mobility and tricks, while forcing coin flips onto the enemy by being able to leave combat/engage from extreme distances. Also, movement stats being on unstable is, imo, terrible design, because this is a game of maneuver, and having the most important aspect of the game have such high variance turn to turn makes planning very frustrating (especially in Waiqur, with our zero rune manipulation, although no one can afford the points/slots for rune manipulation if you don't have some mechanics that use it in your list). I also think that Lord OP deserves the moniker, if you can't get him on the way in, he teleports where he wants at 3 the next turn and is now basically unkillable. Sure, there is stuff you can do in theory, but he's also got excessive mobility, damage and durability, and forces more coin flips onto the enemy. I think he's a very negative play experience for the person forced to deal with him, and if we're losing players due to the perceived imbalance of Uthuk, I fear Lord V will drive even more people away by feeling uncounterable. In general, I'm worried about the health of the game. As time has passed, they've added more randomness to the game (more morale checks from more morale results/abilities, more movement on runes, things like corruption rune which takes both the randomness of runes and the morale deck), and have also added more ways to stop your opponent from interacting (higher damage = kill them before they go, and getting out of combat before initative 4 based on your choice (scuttling, lord v, faolan).
  3. Also a warmachine player, also in favor of a two list format. I'd play all wargames with it if I could.
  4. @Datskor yeah, that sounds fun. Here is mine for unit type comparison: Infantry: A : Berserkers B : Spearmen, Reanimates C : Outland Scouts, Darnati Ranged Infantry: A : Deepwood Archers, Heavy Crossbows B : Reanimate Archers C : Siege Units: A : Spined Threshers B: Scions, Carrion Lancers C : Rune Golems Cavalry: A: Oathsworn, Leonx, Death Knights, Flesh Rippers B : Wraiths C : Heroes: A: Kari, Ravos, Aliana B: Meagan, Hawthorne ? Ardus, Ankaur edit: I messed up the C for the Heroes, but honestly I kinda think Ardus and Ankaur belong on the joke tier, so I'm going to leave it
  5. @Maktorius Ah, yeah, those are all valid points. Wraiths are only unit I listed that I haven't played with or against at least 2+ times, so I'm much less confident about my thoughts about them. @Vergilius and @Budgernaut those are all fair points, I agree tier lists are kind of silly. But I do think there are two advantages of making them at an individual level: First we often compare units between one another at a micro level, trying to look at the whole game holistically is a step beyond that in analysis, and thinking about things in a new way is always useful for new insights. This has the drawbacks mentioned, with the high level of abstraction and atomizing units which are part of larger factions, but I found it useful. Second, the real reason I made this post: I find it really fun to read other people's tier lists. They are basically snap shots of what other people think of the game balance, and while I kinda like when other people's opinions match mine (cause I like confirmation), I really like when peoples opinions radically differ, because it leads to interesting conversations.
  6. Yeah, S+ is probably unnecessary, I just felt Kari deserved her own tier. Seems like we mostly agree, but what made you put wraiths so low?
  7. The forums talk about balance a lot. But one thing I haven't seen is a thread for tier lists. Even though it is an over simplification of the complex calculus that is balance, I've always really enjoyed reading tier lists for games. I was hoping to see how other people would rank all the currently released units in the game. Here is mine (with the caveat that I'm ranking on what I think the max potential of their best formations is, not average performance over all builds): S+: dominates games, very difficult to counter S: same as S, just a little less potent/more counterable A: always a solid pick B: generally a solid pick, but can run into some issues with the wrong builds/are more counterable C : these need to have the army designed in the right way to use them D : need very specific builds to get their points out of, and are easily countered S+: Kari S: Ravos, Spined Threshers, Berserkers, Aliana A: Deepwood Archers, Heavy Crossbowmen, Maegan, Death Knights, Carrion Lancers, Scions, Wraiths, Leonx Riders B: Oathsworn Cav, Hawthorne, Reanimate Archers, Flesh Rippers, Reanimates, Spearmen C : Outland Scouts, Darnati D : Rune Golems, Ankaur, Ardus So what do other people think? How would you rate the released units?
  8. An app with the points would be great, Tabletop Admiral has managed to put together a super useful app to the point where me and my regular opponent rarely pull out the cards. Enabling game tuning would be a pretty great perk about it. So have many people played Warmachine? One odd side effect of being easily being able to push out rules updates with their app has been a patch cycle. Where the community waits for the next big patch to make their particular faction better/get attention. Fortunately Runewars isn't such a large game, so I don't think that would occur, as designers could still act holistically. The other aspect about that is the heavy community feedback approach to Warmachine's CID, which is neat that they allow so much insight, but I wonder if it doesn't create a difficult environment to design in, as rules feel fluid when you see under the hood of how it is all balanced.
  9. So to preface this, I think Uthuk are overpowered, but that isn't what I want to discuss. Rather, how do people think Fantasy Flight would deal with an entire faction that is imbalanced? Would they try and bring up the other factions via fix upgrades that are more powerful for their points? That would take a while, and may lead to power creep invalidating old options. They could nerf powerful upgrades, although if part of what is powerful is the units themselves, changing dials or unit cards seems harder. Anyways, I'm curious how Fantasy Flight has handled this sort of the thing in the past and what people think they would do if a faction was acknowledged to be significantly better then the other options.
  10. I'm the Waiqur player @Bhelliom plays against a lot, and imo Waiqur are a bit weak, and would benefit the most from a two list format. Some stuff feels a bit more expensive then it should be (reanimates, 2x2 death knights, Ardus and Ankaur). But mainly the faction has a ton of counter tech (blight for death stars, executioners for siege unit/hero spam, morale stacking for deathstars, tons of sources for auto wounds/mortal wounds for high defense). But you don't know what faction you're up against, and it means you either go heavily towards 1-2 types of counters, or spread your tech so thin it isn't effective. Basically, other factions ask questions right now, and Waiqur can answer them, but it can't answer all of them in a single list.
  11. Also I believe you spend banes before the rally action takes place, so they can spend the stun from the dispatch runner to cancel the armor
  12. Assuming the number removed was equally distributed (same chance as 0, 1, 2 or 3 open slots to regenerate when a round ends), the chances of number regenerated is: 0 slots: 100% 0 regenerated 1 slots: 12.5% 0 regenerated, 87.5% chance 1 regenerated 2 slots: 12.5% 0 regenerated, 37.5% 1 regenerated, 50% 2 regenerated 3 slots: 12.5% 0 regenerated, 37.5% 1 regenerated, 37.5% 2 regenerated, 12.5% 3 regenerated For a total of 0.93375 average reanimates regenerated per turn. You shouldn't take damage the first turn (can't on 1, the distance between the closest deployment is greater then 5 range, and the only range Daqan has is at initiative 2, earliest move for Reanimates is 4, ignoring upgrades), if you somehow manage to take damage every turn after that you should regenerate 5.6025 reanimates over an average match (the final round is inconsequential, since points are scored as trays and regenerate happens at the end, so only 6 rounds of regenerate matter). That is presuming you take damage every round between 2-7, which seems unrealistic, dropping it to a more likely good case of 4 reanimates in a game, presuming wound distribution is even (I'm pretty sure 2 and 4 threat will be more common then 1, 3 and 5 threat, so it is more likely to end on 0 and 2 possible slots open to regenerate then 25%, imo, although I couldn't begin to guess how much right now). If we cost 4 reanimates at their most expensive stage (16 pts for 2 at the lowest rank), then that is regenerating 8 points over the course of a game, on average, assuming ideal conditions for damage.
  13. So because I was curious about how the units stacked up, I quickly used these numbers to calculate the damage of the naked formations, not including surge effects. Obviously the Carrion Lancers, potentially Ardus, and Kari all suffer potential damage from a lack of calculating that, and not including upgrades is not a fair comparison, as there are some damage upgrades coming, especially for Spearmen. Waiqur: Reanimates (charge or melee): 2x1: 3 2x2: 4.125 3x2: 6.1875 3x3: 6.84375 4x3: 9.125 Reanimate Archers (ranged, presuming maximizing hits (which does reduce chance of blight, obviously): 2x1: 2.5 2x2: 3.5625 3x2: 5.45375 Carrion Lancers (charge/melee taking hit modifier): 1x1: 1.75/2.75 2x1: 3.5/5.5 2x2: 5.0625/7.0625 3x2: 7.594/10.594 Ardus (charge/melee taking hit), presuming reroll upgrade: 0.208 mortal, 4.5 hits/0.208 mortal, 6.5 hits Daqan: Spearmen (charge/late hitting melee taking hit): 2x1: 2.5/4.5 2x2: 3.56/5.56 3x2: 5.344/8.344 3x3: 5.719/8.719 Oathsworn Cavalry (charge/late hitting melee taking hit): 2x1: 4/6 2x2: 5.625/7.625 2x3: 6.3125/8.3125 3x3: 9.469/12.469 Rune Golem (brutal 1/brutal 2) (only possible stable rune results are 1 or 2): 1x1: 3/4.5 2x1: 4.5/6 2x2: 6.1875/8.25 3x2: 8.125/10.3125 Kari (melee or ranged) (obviously this fails to capture her shredding other units while in melee): 1x1: 3.5625
  14. I thought it would be useful to know the stats in a variety of situations, so I just did a quick calculation on the dice and runes. Notes about these numbers: The rerolls are presuming maximizing hits are the primary goal, I realize that is not always the case (like Kari farming for surges) The game has thresholds where a die getting another hit is pointless, while a reroll to get something else makes the most sense (example, a two threat, 1 reroll reanimate archer unit fires at a rune golem with no armor buff. red gets two hits, blue gets one hit. Better off rerolling for the surge, as 6-4 = 1 wound, as does 4-4) red die: 0.75 average hits, 62.5% chance of one or more hits 0.25 average morale, 25% chance of one morale 0.125 average surge, 12.5% chance of one or more surges average hits with rerolls: with one reroll, assuming reroll when no hits: 1.03125 with two rerolls, assuming reroll when no hits: 1.13671875 with two rerolls, being greedy and only accepting a two faced result for the first roll: 1.140625 blue die: 0.5 average hits, 50% chance of one hits 0.5 average surges, 37.5% chance of one or more surges 0.25 average precision, 25% chance of one precision average hits with rerolls: with one reroll, assuming reroll when no hits: 0.75 with two rerolls, assuming reroll when no hits: 0.875 white die: 0.75 average hits, 66.6% chance of one or more hits 0.42 average surges, 33.3% chance of one or more surges 0.167 average morale, 16.7% chance of one morale 0.08 average precision, 8.3% chance of one precision average hits with rerolls: with one reroll, assuming reroll when no hits or mortal wounds: 0.104 mortal wounds, 1.125 wounds runes: 50% chance of one stable rune, 50% chance of two stable runes 25% of zero unstable runes, 50% chance of two unstable runes, 25% chance of four unstable runes 12.5% chance of zero natural runes, 37.5% chance of one, 37.5% chance of two, 12.5% of 3 natural runes Interesting result, a white die is worse for straight damage then a red if you're attacking something where your threat is higher then their armor (mortal wounds don't multiply with threat, so if threat > armor, mortal wounds decrease damage output)
  15. Yeah, that has been my experience as well, worsened by almost everything having two threat the majority of the time (in the starter box), plus it being difficult to get an armor bonus on them. Without an armor bonus, if something two threat attacked (everything in the starter), they should be removed in increments of two, meaning that 50% of the time a full tray will get wiped out, and an even damage of 2 on a blue red, red blue blue, red red, and white blue is much more common then a damage role of either 3 or 1.
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