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CosmicCastawayA90

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  1. Firstly, I never meant to imply that you had to play any of the video games. Secondly, the most ancient technology you'd need is any type of semi-modern computer to play the vast majority of those games on, if you had the inclination to experience them. Thirdly, the success of a book does not require playing a game. What I was bringing up was that the games themselves also have rich stories that are at the same level of importance as the books. The books and games both stand on their own merits, but combined they continue to build the Star Wars Universe. To your next paragraph, as I stated at the end of my last comment, individualistic opinions have no weight in this conversation, except that there are numerous people such as myself who did enjoy the EU. What gives Disney, or any individual, the right to tell fans that their stories are how it really happened? Maximum success for Star Wars simply translates into maximum profit for Disney. I honestly don't see Disney branching far beyond that, because if that is what they really cared to do then they could have done it already. The EU, for all its flaws that people are quick to point out, gave a VASTLY superior number of stories that did not have to re-make anything that the films had done. Your last paragraph about giving Disney more time to make better content, again, they would have been making strides with new stories were it not for their desire to slap the original cast back onto a movie poster. So far Disney has taken millions of steps backwards, only to move several inches forward. They shouldn't eventually get to the Old Republic, they should have been there to begin with. While that is my personal opinion, in reality they should have started anywhere within the EU that didn't discount the stories that other fans enjoyed. Your three avenues for Disney to handle the EU are incredibly narrow-minded. I also don't see how far off the current situation is with the EU regarding your first viewpoint. The problem I have tried to point out is that the EU IS forbidden for other creators to contribute to. Is Disney still printing out the Legends books and selling the old games? Yes, they are. Can anyone currently continue adding to those stories and make sequels to those games? No, they can't. All they can do is grab scraps and paste them into Disney's new "official" timeline. Also, "by everyone's admission?" Please define everyone for me, because I for one do not "admit" that the EU wasn't good. I again return to my previous statement, no company or individual has the right to do away with stories, history, and creations of any kind simply based on personal opinion. That goes far beyond Star Wars, but this franchise is the most prominent case of the difficulties members of a community are facing to keep their history alive and well. I've also stated multiple times that I understand that creators don't want to be constricted by the lore of the EU, so to solve that they simply could have made any number of Infinity story lines, or created an "alternate" series of content. If Disney was to simply categorize their work as an alternate timeline, and allow authors and game developers to continue making content based on the EU, while Disney went about whatever they wanted to do with their new timeline, then every member of the Star Wars community could be equally represented. Fans such as myself would not need to feel forced to become involved in canon that does away with aspects we have treasured. I don't believe I've ever said that Disney's new lore is worthless. Repetitive and unoriginal, yes. But I understand as well as anyone that fans want to see the original cast on screen. I understand the desire for new films and shows. I want to enjoy these pieces of work in some form, but I can not because they are removing value from the EU, not just in its lore, but within the Star Wars community as a whole. I don't frankly care whether someone agrees with me that the EU was good or bad. What I care about is the future of the EU, and it has every right to be continued by those who wish to do so. Disney has the right to create their own stories however they see fit. They do not have the right to tell all fans that their work is better than whatever books or games they've experienced in the past. Every part of the EU has the right to be not only preserved but continued. Again, personal opinion is not the focus of my arguments. The right for creative works to be built upon by those who wish to do so is what's important to me. So with all that, I'll give you my personal list of ways Disney could have handled the EU in a more open manner: 1. Disney could have labelled all their new content with a title signifying it is an alternate take on the EU in a similar way they have done so with Legends. Next, they could have given control over the EU to an independent company comprised of fans and creators. This gives Disney all the breathing room they want to make any stories they want to see, while also allowing the EU community to continue their stories and characters without confusion. Both categories would be labelled in a similar manner that is done now, so those seeking the history of the EU can easily find those stories, and those seeking Disney's take on the Star Wars universe can find those stories. 2. Disney could have made a new trilogy with new characters and new stories, taking place anywhere from The Old Republic era to the Vong War. Through talented writing and story telling, they could have added to the EU while also introducing new fans to the EU at the same time. The Old Republic era especially could have opened the door for new generations of Star Wars fans. 3. If Disney did not want to do any of the above, and still wanted to make their new lore the official canon, then they could have simply retold stories that already existed through the new movies, without the need of splitting the EU from official canon. Disney has done extraordinarily little to truly separate their stories from what already existed in the first place, so, therefore they could have taken the stories in full and introduced new audiences to the EU with new movies, while also cleaning up aspects of the EU that conflicted with each other. 4. Disney could have simply gone to The Old Republic era and never even touched the EU beyond that time period. This creates no need for splitting the community and also creates no need for them to try to organize every detail of the EU to fit properly together, or for them to simply re-organize bits from the EU into their own cohesive canon as they are doing now. Anyone one of these options, along with numerous others, could have been done by Disney. Each is inclusive of fans of the EU in a way that does not leave the EU behind collecting dust. Each avenue gives freedom for creators to continue their contributions to the EU, or Disney's new canon. I can not understand why any of the following were not done as opposed to the system that has been created now. I also believe that this conversation hasn't been far off the track of what I originally posted. We've established that ships will likely make a return if Disney chooses to incorporate them into the new lore, and we've also highlighted ships that should make a return. I believe a discussion about the lore itself is just as important. All of the factors that I have laid out in my responses to comments contribute to why I want to see more EU ships make a return to X-Wing Miniatures. It's important to recognize that for myself and other fans of the EU, bringing back that universe is very important to many of us. It should be allowed to be contributed to, and those who want to see that content continued can continue to enjoy the rich history of the EU. Those who dislike it have Disney's take on Star Wars to look to. Everyone should be represented equally. Equal representation, or the potential for equal representation across content like X-Wing Miniatures, is what I want to see.
  2. Gameplay mechanics and balancing do not equate to lore. Even the wiki outline these uses of ships as being made for gameplay purposes. I agree with VanderLegion. I have no idea where you are getting your numbers from Lobokai, but your view that the EU is comprised of "junk" is little more than an unfounded opinion. Firstly, I really fail to understand why you claim that the only people who care about the Old Republic era would be a bunch of "nerds." Really? Aren't we all nerds if we enjoy something like Star Wars in the first place? I'd also like to point out that Disney has already ripped from that era in making the Hammerhead-like ship in Rogue One. And if the average fan is curious about following more of the original cast, then they already could have jumped into any number of EU sources and learned more about them. Each of the characters childhoods could have been expanded upon in legends, sure, but the average fan still doesn't care enough to look further into the universe of Star Wars unless it's on a movie screen. As to your last point about money that Disney would make, I'm going to answer that along with this earlier post: I find it fascinating how there are instances of corporate greed that people are quick to point out has having a negative overall impact on a product or piece of work, and then there are other instances which manage to make the same methods and goals more acceptable for those same people. I've said as much in my last posts that not only do I understand that Disney is making decisions for purely maximum profit, but I've also brought forth an argument to show that it is wrong for them to do so. For example, Electronic Arts is considered a terrible company, and was awarded the "Worst Company in America Award" two years in a row (2013-2014). What is the goal of that company? To maximize profits. How do they accomplish this? By putting profit ahead of a good product, often times leaving that product is a lesser state than the standard that came before it. Disney is doing the same thing here with the EU. I have yet to see a use of EU material that has outdone its original story or character. Disney is selling the same product at a lower level of quality. That isn't right. To your next point, Star Wars was not dead and buried, it was thriving in other art forms. Just because a Star Wars movie wasn't on a theater screen doesn't mean that it was dead. There was still a fanbase that was plenty large enough for the legacy of the franchise to be carried through fantastic games, comics, and books. As for the "mess," I've also already stated that there are some aspects here and there that could have done with some cleaning up. However, the vast majority of content has already been sorted out, and you only need to go to the wiki to see that. I again return to my previous explanation that Disney wiping the EU only to pick out what they personally like to expand on doesn't make any sense. They are looking up stories, characters, and ships that already existed in the EU to use for their "new" stories, which are little more than copies from what was already done in the EU. Tell me why exactly they couldn't have kept the EU intact? They certainly aren't doing anything creative with the EU, as others have been quick to state. So if Disney could spend that much time searching for EU material to copy and paste, why was there a need to remake everything? Disney's profit should not be the focus of discussion about stories within the Star Wars universe. Disney makes more than enough profit as it stands. What should be important about the discussion regarding the EU is whether or not it should be respected by fans and Disney alike, and I wholeheartedly believe that it should be. Whether an individual sees pieces of the EU being good, bad, or mediocre is meaningless. I say that good or bad, the many stories of the EU that fit into the established timeline have a right to have an opportunity to be expanded upon further and still be kept alive by whoever holds the Star Wars license. Every story told through the EU has a right to exist in some form or another, be it through the title of an "Infinity," in which the story is told in an alternate reality or made with no regard for the rest of the established lore, or be it through a story that is closely tied and checked for accuracy with the established lore. I have had plenty of great experiences with the EU, I've also had ones that were not as great. It is not my place to judge what has a right to exist based on how "good" it is. Everything should be placed in a proper category that fits that work, and then fans can experience what they want to, as they have already done in the past. Disney's actions are not promoting such an avenue for Star Wars.
  3. To your first point, the EU was not perfect, I've said as much in my previous comments. I mentioned only a dozen things because if I was to list every bit of good lore that came from the EU, then we'd be here for weeks. You say that you don't like how the Jedi are shown to be wrong, or that they may be bad in their own light with regards to Republic Commando, and you also cite later on that KOTOR II was polarizing because of its tone, which I'm assuming is for similar reasons of the Jedi being shown to be flawed. To this, I would say that moments showing the Jedi were in the wrong are fantastic throughout the EU. KOTOR II and books like Republic Commando showed that the Jedi were far from perfect, as they should be. The Jedi Council held onto its strict beliefs for thousands of years, and the Galaxy has suffered for that throughout history. The Jedi are not perfect, and adding in a moral grey area into the Star Wars universe builds up the universe that much more. Life isn't about clear instances of right or wrong, so what's the problem with highlighting this through certain sections of Star Wars lore? There are numerous short EU stories that haven't aged well, and those could do with some retconning. I'm not opposed to fixing the instances where the lore doesn't line up. George Lucas himself has shown a disregard for established lore with some episodes of The Clone Wars series. However, there were far more instances of incorporating the excellent worlds and aspects from the EU in a proper manner than there were cases where the series went in a far different direction from what was previously established. I'm also not sure what about Battlefront II you're referring to. I don't recall that game ever being centered on competition more so than entertainment, and I don't understand what you mean when you say it "ballsed up all the lore." I would also like to point at that because you have a negative experience doesn't mean that the product is worth being re-written and remade. Referring back to your previous statements about numerous EU stories being cheesy and not to be taken seriously, there have already been statements from officials of the lore that clarify what is and what isn't canon regarding stories like that. A prime example are the Star Wars Tales comic, which was an excuse for many authors to create a mixture of stories that more closely adhered to established canon, and stories which were purely for entertainment. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Tales#Tales_stories_with_elements_of_continuity I would love for these stories to be cleared up further in other works, and for work to go into defining what is and isn't actual "canon." But there's nothing wrong with some cheesy stories being told here and there. If a story is really good, then other writers will find it beneficial to continue those stories in later works. If it is another cheesy story that's really for entertainment value above all else, then it falls by the wayside and doesn't become a focus of the EU. This system worked just fine for the EU, but I wouldn't be opposed to certain stories that were written purely with entertainment in mind to be declared non-canon like many of the Star Wars Tales were, and I'd like them to be replaced by something arguably better. The EU was a collaborative story that was continuously built upon the works of a wide range of talented authors. There were certainly authors that didn't make the cut compared to others, but Star Wars had an open universe that was welcoming to anyone who had a story to tell. Because of this, I strongly disagree with your final point. As I said before, Disney could have brought the community of the EU together with fans of the movies. Disney did in fact hold onto old lore from decades ago, they just simply gave it a little bit of a twist so that they could pass it on as a sequel. When A New Hope released for the first time ever, did anyone know anything about that universe? No, they didn't. If Disney created new stories within the Star Wars Universe, with new characters, or in the Old Republic era, it'd be the same thing. There are ways to create stories that have rich history that don't alienate people who have never experienced that history before. There are numerous examples of works of all kinds that do it in a way that's open to everyone and discriminates no one. The new Star Trek series of movies used time travel and alternate reality, Terminator Genisis did the same, and Mad Max simply used ambiguity. These methods are just a few in which to create stories that don't discount or completely retell the past, and instead let audiences focus on the new story that is unfolding. Disney did not have to go back to the basics and retell the same story. Disney did not have to wipe out the entirety of the EU, only to pick out certain bits of the lore to redo the same stories. And Disney certainly did not have to constrict the ability for other creators to work within the Legends continuity. Star Wars is character driven, but the universe itself is what made the franchise iconic. The characters are incredibly important as well, but they support that universe more so than they hold the center stage. Your concern for keeping what made characters interesting is similar to what I and others feel for the Star Wars universe as a whole. The massive cast of characters from the movies are certainly factors that draw people to Star Wars, and there were already numerous really excellent stories that people could experience if they wanted to see more of those characters. More often than not, the EU was able to capture the qualities of those characters, and fleshed out their pasts and futures in really creative ways. And that's why people like me believe Disney should have gone to other parts of the Star Wars galaxy to make new, and more original stories, rather than remaking what was already done before. We want interesting characters to cheer for and to fear, in the case of iconic villains like Vader, but we want those characters to be new and breaking out of the already established world of the original cast. By and large, the EU accomplished this with characters like Admiral Thrawn, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade, and countless others.
  4. I'm curious as to what kinds of material you've gotten into with the EU. Are you reading the books alone? Or are you also playing the numerous video games that also came from the EU? And as far as quality is concerned, again, the vast majority of EU content held up to decent standards of quality. The EU might have been messy, there are scattered articles across the wiki that show discrepancies regarding certain topics of the lore, but the vast majority of what was made was consistent with the lore. There are numerous books that are fantastic, such as the Republic Commando series (the game is also amazing), X-Wing Rogue Squadron, The Thrawn Trilogy, The Old Republic series (another great game). And then there are the countless games like the X-Wing and TIE-Fighter series, Dark Forces, Battlefront, Rogue Squadron, Bounty Hunter, and Shadows of the Empire, which are also of great quality and stand up today. The problem is that while Disney might be twisting the EU to conform to their own standards, they are leaving out an incredible amount of detail in the process. They are doing all of this when they simply could have been far more creative and gone to The Old Republic era, or focus on stories of other characters that are around during the Galactic Civil War or Clone Wars eras. It's a big galaxy, with trillions of inhabitants at least. Why shove in the original cast if not for the pure sake of maximum profit? To me, wanting to re-write history for maximum monetary gain isn't a good method to promote story-telling. Above all else, I don't see what the point was to unnecessarily remaking content that already existed. Disney would have made plenty from just holding onto the license of Star Wars alone. The comic book analogy doesn't apply here in the same way though. Yes, Marvel and DC have consistently created new stories around their characters, but with comic books, the one appealing aspect are those specific characters. The vast majority of comics place their heroes and villains in modern times, there isn't a deep, rich universe of limitless potential that can easily be jumped to in the same way that exists with Star Wars. Their story lines certainly haven't died on a vine, but reinterpreting comic book characters is a different environment compared to something like Star Wars. Comic book characters like Superman have plenty of different interpretations for their history and future, and the general public would be able to identify that the different movies are different interpretations of the character, and that one movie doesn't necessarily override the other. The atmosphere of writing a new take on Superman is much more open because Superman is the aspect of that medium which holds the center stage. That's not true of Star Wars, where the universe was open to all kinds of interesting characters with unique backstories. Think of it this way, superhero comics are defined by their characters, Star Wars is defined by its universe. They are two different aspects of entertainment, and the rules that work out for one don't exactly work for the other.
  5. Lazy for sure. And I agree, the vast majority of EU was great! For the most part everything once fairly consistent, and there weren't many major discrepancies between the games and books that were released. Yes, myths and legends would be changed and twisted around throughout history, but that was mainly due to stories being passed down by word of mouth hundreds upon hundreds of years ago. Everything that we have now that's related to telling stories is written down, or recorded in one form or another and can be referenced easily. We aren't seeing a growth, we're seeing a re-hash of ideas that already existed. Disney's content is little more than a glorified remake, and only a small percentage of the greater Star Wars community will be able to recognize it as such. If Disney wanted to label their new lore as an alternate reality, or actually call their work a reimagining, or remake, then all power to them. If they really cared about the community, then they could have found a way to incorporate events in the EU directly into movies, just by following a different cast of characters. Wouldn't it have been great if the Star Wars community could have been brought together as a whole? Rather than further dividing us? Unfortunately, they've left the lore of Legends behind in the dust. Only FFG and Bioware can continue making new lore in the Expanded Universe, and that's not right. I'd love to see large set expansions for X-Wing Miniatures that go back to the Clone Wars and Old Republic eras, and that'd really be the only way they'd consider releasing ships from a little over 3000 years ago. I doubt they'd release expansions like that until they couldn't release any more ships from the Galactic Civil War era though. More Clone Wars era ships would make sense, but depending on how many they'd want to make I say those should be a large-scale expansion too.
  6. I agree, the Nu and Scurrg would be nice, but I'm not sure there's any viability in an X-Wing without an astromech. Now what might be nice is a modified Z-95 with S-foils, as that was a thing in the EU, but even then that's hard to justify. In my original list of ships I left out the Razor Starfighter for Scum, and the DX-9 Stormtrooper transport for both the Empire and Scum. Those would be nice to see.
  7. The erasure of a huge line of books, video games, and comics isn't disrespectful, but calling me a "simplistic grognard" is? Buddy, Obi-Wan Kenobi had higher ground than you do here, best to not lash out in anger, lest you get your legs cut off by a lightsaber.
  8. So the "creative" process means ripping off the exact same story from the first Star Wars movie? If Disney really wanted room to be creative, then fine, I would have loved to see some original ideas, but wiping out a whole culture and then copying and pasting the parts you like isn't creative, it's disrespectful. And they have plenty of time to look at the expanded universe to rip from it anyways, so how much time are they really saving? It's called Wookiepedia; I can literally write my own story with respect to the lore by looking up a couple pages here and there to make sure I don't have any blatant errors. The thing about Star Wars was that it provided limitless room for story-telling. Want to tell the story of a shifty smuggler trying to make ends meet in the seedy alleys of Nar-Shadaa? You can do that. Want to tell the story of a Jedi who survived Order-66 and has been living out his life in peace, until a regiment of Storm-Troopers blast through the town he's become a part of? You can do that too. The only reason Disney chucked out the EU was to profit from the original cast members. They could have easily gone to the Old Republic Era, and really fleshed that time period out.
  9. I'd say, replace "almost" with "is" and you're exactly right. Disney really just wanted an excuse to re-write Star Wars history so that they could rake in cash by selling the new movies on the faces of the original cast. It's degrading to fans, writers, and the original cast. The bright side is that there isn't an enormous amount of EU ships that can be shoe-horned into Disney's canon, and those who love the EU like we do probably just want an excuse to see those ships in X-Wing Miniatures by this point. Miniatures and The Old Republic MMO are the only sources of EU material that have been grandfathered in by Disney, and at least for me, those are the last new sources of lore I'll look to as being true Star Wars stories.
  10. I agree. This is the problem I have with having to wait for Disney to re-incorporate the EU into their cannon. They simply shouldn't be re-incorporating anything in the first place. If they were going to wipe out the EU, then that should have been the end of it. Yet they rip from the EU consistently. Why then, did they decide to scrap the EU in the first place, if they aren't original enough to come up with their own ideas? This is why I'd like to see some more EU ships in the game, even if there are only a few of them left that'd be noticeable for the Galactic Civil War era. I want to be able to see a more complete collection of the EU lore in the game, and I think there'd be a decent amount of ships that have a purpose within the game mechanics as well.
  11. I'm not impatient to see anything, and I don't believe there are glaring omissions, but I think there's still a few ships here and there that could do with some representation. For starters, there are plenty more Scum ships that could be incorporated into the game. The R-41 Starchaser, Cloakshape Fighter, Toscan Fighter, Pursuer-class enforcement ship, and the YT-2000 would be nice additions to see. The Rebels getting the T-Wing wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but the Raven's Claw would be nice to see in the hands of the Rebellion. The class of ship for the Claw wasn't expanded on too much in the EU, so that'd be open for a lot of possibilities. The YT-2000 could be made for Rebel use as well. You're right in that there aren't too many other vehicles that are exclusive to the Rebels aside from variants on existing ship chassis. Most of the other ships that are Rebel exclusive would be speeders, but there hasn't been a focus on ground combat at all with X-Wing Miniatures, so those aren't viable at the moment. As for the Empire, the Scimitar Bomber, Missile Boat, Assault Gun Boat, various TIE-Avenger variants, Skipray Blastboat, TIE Hunter, and MK VI interceptor would be options. Mainly, Scum could see a healthy variety in ships, and Rebels and Empire could get a couple ships to shake things up a bit.
  12. For the longest time, I had my sights set on X-Wing Miniatures because of all the Expanded Universe ships that were being added to the game. I loved seeing X-Wings and Ties as much as the next guy, but being able to grab hold of a model of Kyle Katarn's Moldy Crow, or the E-Wing? Now that was what really got a hold of my attention. But now that Disney has separated the EU from their "official" canon, I'm concerned that additional ships with the rich history of the EU will no longer become part of X-Wing Miniatures. The last several waves have been almost entirely devoted to the new movies and Rebels, the exception being the ARC-170, which as far as I can tell seems to be based on the EU. Do you think that FFG will be able to return to some of the EU ships in the future? Perhaps by rebranding those ships with the same "Legends" banner that every other product of the EU has received? Or do you think that Disney's work will become the new norm for ships in the game? I'm curious to see what others think.
  13. Maybe you should change the name to something like "Cinematic Skirmish" or "Theatrical Skirmish?" Calling the mode "Galactic Civil War" might be a little misleading, as all the EU ships are considered Galactic Civil War era ships. Other than that, I like the idea!
  14. Nope. This is truly the first 'competitive' style table-top game that I've remotely gotten into. I've had my eye on plenty of miniature games before, but the price and lack of time to play them has placed them at the bottom of my list of priorities. I've been delving back into a ton of Star Wars books, comics, and games as of late however, and figured now was as good a time as any to jump in and see what X-Wing was like. If it wasn't for the Star Wars theme and the EU ships, I wouldn't have bought X-Wing at all.
  15. Rather than a lack of storytelling options, I'd say a #5 should be a lack of variety in game modes. That applies to every aspect of the game, tournament and casual alike.
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