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  1. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    The nice thing about bonus attacks is you can forget to label them and it doesn't matter, since the rules cover that. Every attack besides your standard attack is a bonus attack and you only get one of each. Cards that label the bonus attack are just being nice and reminding you. 😄
  2. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    B-Wings are not the evasive, fast-moving tanks that TIE Defenders are, but point taken. Strip the linked actions of course and just have the one side, and certainly also take away full throttle. Even without full throttle, I do think though that there'd need to be some additional limits on the TIE Defender to keep it from combining a B-Wing double-tap with the mobility and damage-shedding power of a fast 3-dice tanky ship... Rexler with the B-Wing Double-Tap for example would be hard to kill and quite damaging. At TIE Defender prices I wonder if that would be fine though... Gina or Ten will be 55 or 53 points compared to Rexler's 86+ (you can almost field both for his price), but they move nowhere near as well and can't shed much damage either. They're knife fighters that can be pinned down and focused to death, or chipped to death over the course of a match while outflying them. When Rexler senses danger he can bail in a number of high-speed directions, boost or roll as needed, and shed a lot of whatever shot still reaches him. It feels like a big difference, but maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion. Kind of a difference of "Two generic X-Wings or one solid Ace". The ace tends to be hands-down preferred unless the generics can swarm enough reach the critical mass of efficiency. With their stats and dial (and Rexler's init), TIE Defenders are closer to that role than to B-Wings.
  3. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    That could be done, but it wouldn't amount to much. If they choose to spend the charge at the start of activation, the ability I've written doesn't punish that (they could make both attacks or just one attack, it doesn't matter). We might add something to make it a harder choice, but that changes the balance and I'd like to examine what I've got first. Adding a stress to my token-only extra attack is pretty harsh, but may be necessary for double taps if in practice it got out of line. That said, this is a non-damaging shot (it can only deal tractor, jam, or ion tokens) so the normal doubletap rules don't directly apply. It enhances their attack but doesn't strictly deal extra damage on its own. I'm not sure if adding stress is necessary, but it's a decent tool to have in our toolbox. But as written, you've got a true double-tap with primary + any cannon, which is actually really terrifying -- a stress wouldn't be near enough for that. Imagine at range 1, it's double-tapping with a 4-dice primary and a 3 - 4 dice autoblaster (that might bypass shields with its crits). And it can be performed regularly (the only price is stress). That blows Veteran Turret Gunner out of the water. I'd shy entirely away from a damaging 2nd attack; that's not the direction the TIE Defender should go, and it's not what the original TIE/D title did anyway. Its extra cannon shot was intended only as a status effect shot, not a VTG-style damage shot. Try this. Not necessarily top meta (TIE Defenders are not currently sporting enough raw efficiency to play with the big dogs), but it's three aces that can play different roles really well. Rexler Brath (81) Juke (7) Fire-Control System (2) Ship total: 90 Half Points: 45 Threshold: 4 "Duchess" (42) Fifth Brother (11) Ship total: 53 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 2 Soontir Fel (53) Predator (2) Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2 Total: 198 View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z196X123W113WWY211XW82WWY179X127WW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs= Soontir and Duchess are solid flankers who shouldn't be jousting; keep them out of arcs. Rexler can joust and either hold foes focused on him, or properly punish ships pursuing your other aces. His speed and init help him to deal with foes he shouldn't joust too, such as swarms. And he's about half your points, so he can just run away with those points to frustrate foes if needed. I don't like fortressing and slowplay tactics IMO but I accept that they're embraced by winners. FCS, Predator, and Juke can be dropped to widen your bid as you see fit; depends on the ace profile of your local meta. Fifth Brother is also viable to chuck if you want more bid or other upgrades more than free dice mods on Duchess, though he's really solid on her. Maarek Stele is a suitable replacement to Duchess, though I generally prefer her maneuverability. Whisper is also potent but you'd have to go light on upgrades on someone (or everyone) to fit her. The most common way to optimize a fleet like this to be meta-worthy is unfortunately to remove the TIE Defender and replace it with something either vastly more efficient for the points (e.g. Vader), or replace it with something cheaper. The meta is a cruel and unfeeling master.
  4. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    IMO that kinda defeats the balance on Defenders in 2e though. Even in 1e the point was that they had a narrow band of astonishing maneuverability (blue straights and unheard of white k-turns), but turning is challenging and they don't have any k-turn alternatives like sloops or tallons. TIE Defenders are meant to be predictable unless the player resists the urge to keep jousting and mixes it up a bit. Giving them sloops would probably be a mistake... that robs the opponent of a lot of counterplay that makes this monster ship tackleable. Remember that this is a 3/3/3/4 ship with a white k-turn and both boost and roll repositions, and a free evade action on fast maneuvers. Even though the sloops would be red, giving it more jousting versatility is likely a bad idea. Opponents need counterplay. That's my opinion; I'd love for @theBitterFig or one of the other experts here to give their take.
  5. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    I mean it negates all damage that would be dealt to shields and hull from the cannon; only tokens that are dealt instead of damage would get through (jam, ion, tractor). This keeps players from double-tapping with autoblasters, HLC, etc. This is meant to be a non-damaging, token-inflicting attack attack that happens before your primary weapon attack. I strongly disagree with just turning it into "you attack twice", since double-tapping with your 3-dice primary (or 4-dice at range 1) would be terrifyingly OP, entirely inappropriate for 2nd edition. Veteran Turret Gunner can't hold a candle to that level of power. Not being able to modify dice on the 2nd attack doesn't solve that one bit. Not even gaining a deplete or strain is that big of a deal for a TIE Defender that can easily zoom away or joust behind foes and has great blues and repositions. Honoring the original TIE/D title is better: it only works with the token-inflicting cannons. Being able to keep Full Throttle on the rounds you're not double-tapping is also quite powerful. Not as severe as the unrestricted 3- or 4-dice double-tap, but still amazing. That's combining the two titles onto the same ship and letting it choose each round, at the start of engagement when all ship placements are set, which it would like to do (which also doesn't make sense, since you've already used full throttle back in Activation). Did you play the first edition TIE/D and TIE/x7 titles? I feel like you're not familiar with them and that might be part of the confusion. The TIE/x7 title is what TIE Defenders have now as a ship ability, while TIE/D is what you could equip instead to shoot with a weak cannon first and then follow up with your primary. Once x7 was brought into balance, TIE/D became a lot more powerful. Rexler was a BRUTE with it, but so were the others. For example, Rexler liked to attack with Tractor Beam to move the target into range 1 or out of range 3, and reduce its agility. Then he'd perform his primary attack against the closer, lower-agility target. And then he could use his ability to flip damage cards. Or he could be damaging and ionizing a target. Or jamming them to wipe out defensive and offensive tokens, softening them up for both his attack and the team's.
  6. Since we were on the subject of multiple attacks, I was going to ask about importing the TIE/D title. But I figured I'd make my own thread instead of hijacking this one. Link for those interested.
  7. Wazat

    Importing TIE/D

    I wonder if that double-attack from TIE/D would be appropriate with Jamming Beam, Tractor Beam, and maybe Ion Cannon. Limiting cannon selection by cost is awkward... I'd limit it to cannons that deal tokens instead of damage (by preventing it from ever dealing damage -- only tokens matter). I assume the configuration would also need to remove Full Throttle. I'm a bit inclined to reverse the order (primary first, then tokens, so you're not powering up your own attack, but instead helping allies). That both makes it less powerful (which may be important to bring it in line with 2.0) and easier to word the text. But for the first pass I'll leave that be. Heavy TIE/D (Configuration: TIE/D Fighter Only) 1 charge (recurring) You cannot use Full Throttle. Before you would perform a Cannon attack, you may spend a charge. If you do, each time the target would suffer damage from an uncancelled hit/crit during this attack, prevent that damage. After performing this attack, if you spent the charge, you may perform a bonus primary weapon attack. 5 points (I picked the cost arbitrarily, btw; totally open to raising or dropping it) The nice part of TIE/D was it was a difference in kind instead of a difference in scale. Instead of just doing more damage, it put the lesser-used status effect cannons to use in interesting ways, particularly tractor beam (repositioning the target and reducing their agility before blasting them, or moving them into place for an ally). But for most of its existence, it didn't see use because the free evade from x7 was objectively better until the nerf. Differences in kind are much more interesting, but they're a lot harder to balance than something that just increases your accuracy or damage or shot count. And they're the things that usually get nerfed hard later, like tractor tokens. The Nantex was a fascinating ship to fly and play with, absolutely amazing and clever design, but it was also OP and NPE as ****! Likewise I've heard Ketsu described as a bully, and Quadrijets made lots of enemies too. So a TIE/D configuration with its free tractor/jam/ion before firing could be tricky to balance right for second edition. As with Twin Laser Turret, its core design may not be appropriate without major reworking. It'll take some analysis. Thoughts?
  8. IMO that one's terrifyingly powerful for the reasons listed in posts above. You don't need lock/focus to hit with TLT, relying on sheer volume of attacks and dice to get 1 or 2 damage in a turn. But you could still spend all your tokens on the first attack and be fine, and jam tokens are shed at end of round. Deplete might be better but would still have all the problems of a double-attacking long-range turret.
  9. Hrm, I have some thoughts to dump (in an unorganized fashion), but before anyone tells me I'm terrible, my post has two required buy-ins: 1E's TLT would objectively be too powerful for 2E's meta and ship design 1E's TLT was generally too powerful for 1E's meta and ship design If we don't agree on those, then I'm not surprised you're incensed. @ImperialAce95: At least at first blush, I like the Missile Turret. Limited use because of charges and requiring a lock. Its slots narrow it to only certain ships (currently the TIE/ag) and avoids the abusers. Honestly that feels like an appropriate design to me, more so than just "have a 3-dice turret". It's like a more limited and balanced Barrage Rockets: lock instead of focus, only four uses and no reloading so no running away all game trying to snipe and strafe, but it's a 3-dice attack for the ship so it's solid value added. In addition to the mandatory ordnance icon for Autoblaster Turret, I might limit it further to 2 charges and to range 1 only. The charges are not spent to fire, they're spent to bypass defense with crits while you're outside of the target's front arc. I dunno... I'm feel'n cagey about this one for some reason. Might be nothing, but Autoblaster Cannon feels a lot better designed & balanced; the fact that it cannot strafe, fire after passing (without a k-turn etc), or be used while running away counts for a lot. Once you make it turreted... Yea, the feeling of doom isn't going away, kill it with fire. 🔥 So a number of interesting features and limiters could be applied to turrets to make them interesting but also hopefully less oppressive. If you want something highly accurate, I'd advise against two attacks for the excellent reasons above. Instead just make it a 3-dice range 2-3 turret, single attack, and it cannot be used as a bonus attack. Use that as our base. Possibly a 3-dice turret that can only deal 1 damage. Either way, it doesn't shoot twice. Again, compliments to the Missile Turret; that's a good approach. Or a 2-dice turret that can spend a charge to reroll a die or several to grant it some initial accuracy, but its charges cannot be recovered and there's only 2 or so of them. So as it heats up in combat, it stops being as useful. Or your accurate turret has X charges, and only rolls 1 die naturally. You can spend up to 2 charges to roll that many more dice. Charges recover one at a time. But on reflection, since this encourages running away, I'd run away from the idea. It might be better to just have 4 - 6 charges that don't recover. Another accuracy thought, if your goal is to be better against aces: 3-dice attack that can only deal 1 total damage if it hits, and if the opponent rolls more green dice than your red, the defender's focus results cannot be modified. But that kill it with fire feeling is returning... The opposite direction: If instead you want an inaccurate, high damage turret that sucks against evasive fighters but slaughters elephants, Turbolaser Battery is a fantastic design for that. Adding a hit result if the attack hits is a viable option, perhaps also converting crits to hits. In standard play though, that weapon may not be a very welcome addition. Like with autoblaster turret, I immediately feel dread at the idea. This turret would pick apart rebel beef and thicc swarms pretty well, but it also murders a lot of the ships that are already struggling by not being aces (anything not 3-agility). Again, maybe kill this with fire. Limiters: High cost is one way to keep a turret from being spammed, but so is Limited (one or two dots). That unfortunately does nothing to the individual pilots that could abuse it with special abilities or simply running away. And a high cost is such a blunt instrument, severely limiting who could enjoy it with any success, if anyone. I once had a homebrew conversation in 1E days about someone's idea for a weapon that simply ignores shields. That triggered a giant nope response from me... it'd murder the game's balance. They were upset that I hadn't even heard the cost before I balked, but I sincerely believed no cost would be appropriate. It's either costed too expensive to use unless one pilot can figure out a combo, and even then balancing that one pilot is tricky... or it's too cheap and it demolishes the meta and ruins the lives of all the ships in the game that rely on shields in any notable capacity. Cost is just too blunt an instrument; you have to balance with lots of tools. A serious problem is always pilots like Kavil that could abuse whatever we give them; these special cases are frequently the reason we can't have nice things. I'm in favor of the points PDF just listing banned cards under those pilots, but I suspect that would trigger FFG's safe word. Explicitly banning rolling additional dice or modifying dice is a strong hammer that could be employed if needed. Kavil, various sources of free dice mods (e.g. Matchstick, force, free mods from allies), etc can all be brought into line with this. You'd be left with a raw attack that cannot be modded though, unless your weapon provided a specific mod method (e.g. for a 3-dice turret "You may cancel a die result. If you do, you may either reroll any number of dice or convert one focus to a hit; this attack cannot be modified with any other effect. This weapon cannot be used as a bonus attack."). It's an aggressive nuke and may not solve all problems, but it's good to have it in standby when your nifty weapon idea cannot be brought into line any other way. Requiring the attacker to spend their focus or lock simply to fire is also an interesting option, e.g. 1E's blaster turret. It requires the resource but also spends your dice mod source. Maybe there are cases where it's appropriate to include 1 or 2 charges that can be spent instead of the focus or lock, but they don't recharge, so you've only got a mulligan or two on that token requirement. The missile turret above requiring both a lock and spending a charge is a decent combination, which gets better by limiting its ship choices. Again, we want to avoid games going to time because ships are encouraged toward infinite strafing and running away; the game is plagued with enough of that. Welp. That's probably enough half-baked thoughts to get me into serious trouble.
  10. Yup, when people talk about triple aces (specifically: well-modded, arc-dodgy, high-init ships) being NPE, this is what they mean. Many, many, many very interesting and fun ships, pilots, and whole fleets simply don't matter when pitted against triple aces. They're the great gatekeeper to the meta, and if someone's flying triple aces against you (at least, flying them correctly), you know you're in for one of the game's hardest challenges. Many, if not most fleets the average player flies have little to no response to aces, mainly the cagey aces playstyle. Some people talk about aces being not that big of a deal, and when they do, they're unknowingly signaling that they themselves play the top meta and don't experiment with much else. 😉 Now that said, it can be a lot of fun to accept that you'll lose and just push as hard as possible with a non-meta list, practicing over and over again, trying to figure out how to leverage your list's power against different meta fleets and cover for its weaknesses. That's what I did with Wullffwarro War Crimes and I had a lot of fun, and found I could be pretty effective against lots of meta and near-meta fleets. But ultra-cagey aces were objectively better than the junk I was running, and I kinda didn't stand a chance against the fleet that beat me. And then Blail Blerg had a lot to say about that across multiple threads; his words basically boil down to "if it can't reliably beat triple aces, it's garbage". When Boom Owl complains about triple aces, this is his complaint. I just... strongly disagree with his solutions. 😄
  11. Many interesting fleets struggle against triple aces. They're the meta's main gatekeeper and likely always will be. The list does a lot better against other stuff though, particularly swarms and beef. And as you've seen, it has some solid tricks even against aces, but it still struggles against 'em if the foe is really squirrely. And as I said in the other thread, the list isn't meta-strong but against non-meta it's a lot of fun. Trouble turning around without a k-turn is the main struggle I've had with the K-Wing too. It needs time to bail and come back around as a hit & run platform, or to use its bombs while foes give chase. Advanced SLAM really helps with reloading bombs and running, but it can be tough to clear that stress and still maneuver properly (2 straight and SLAM 2 turn gets really predictable so you have to mix it up). Sorry your first try with the fleet was so brutal. 😞 I've bailed on fleets before too because a hard-counter meta list (almost always aces) just wrecked the fun.
  12. Oh, I should mention the reason I removed various upgrades: Adv Proton Torps: Always extremely fun, but lots of things had to go to make room for Jake and you already have rockets Advanced SLAM: Hard to give up, but Miranda's core combo can live without it. Seismic Charges: Very useful, but also dependent on the positions of obstacles which limits their use while fleeing (while proton bombs are just universally good). Ideally you'd have both, but we needed the points. R3 Astromech: Fancy, but Dutch doesn't need it. He has no lock munitions, and with Ezra gone he's not double-attacking, and he's going to target lock just about every round to support allies so he doesn't need a backup lock for future rounds. Ezra: Easiest removal of them all. Ezra's not worth the giant points sink for the effect he provides. And to include Jake, you can't afford to keep him. Baze: It's nice to have a discount Perceptive Copilot, but... Baze is not great. Having to ram your delicate HWK into range 1 and stress him to get Baze's effect is just not great. Also, we were still short on points. Engine Upgrade: Handy to have, but we needed those two points and the HWK survives without it. Ion Cannon Turret: Dorsal does fine and it's nice that it's pure damage. Though if we can afford it, best to get Ion back because the control aspect is so useful! Moldy Crow: I love this upgrade and I try very hard to include it in my Jan Ors fleets. But it's also rough to pay for it when everyone else is clamoring for upgrades, and since Kyle is primarily there for his support ability, we can spare the points. Still, it's good to have another 3-dice attacker if you don't think you need anything else.
  13. Trimming the fattest of fat (Adv Proton Torps, Advanced SLAM, Seismic Charges, R3 Astromech, Ezra, Baze, Engine Upgrace) leaves you with -2 points, so you'll probably also need to drop the ion to Dorsal Turret to get Jake to fit. This gives you a leaner team with more ships, while keeping the core combo intact on Miranda. Miranda Doni (42) Barrage Rockets (8) Han Solo (14) Proton Bombs (5) Ship total: 69 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 5 "Dutch" Vander (40) Dorsal Turret (3) Ship total: 43 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4 Kyle Katarn (34) Moldy Crow (18) Ship total: 52 Half Points: 26 Threshold: 3 Jake Farrell (36) Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2 Total: 200 View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z17XW97WW84WWW69WY27XW137WWWWWY48XWWWWW156Y50XWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs= IMO proxying Esege in would probably cover Jake + Kyle's role better. I know you don't have a 2nd k-wing model, but if you have conversion kit cardboard for the 2nd k-wing you can field it without a model on the stand. (that's what I meant by proxy in the other thread -- no need to go buy a 2nd K-Wing model!) Otherwise, you might consider trimming another bit of fat: remove Moldy Crow to give Kyle either Perceptive Copilot or, if desperate, Baze. Kyle's role is primarily support so he can survive not having 3-dice attacks. You'll have points left over to add back in some stuff like Ion Cannon Turret, Advanced SLAM, Seismic Charges, etc. Jake might like a missile and/or some talents (crack shot, predator, etc) to cover his weak primary attack. Dutch might like Veteran Turret Gunner... but I've found he's normally not worth loading with the points needed for double-tapping. Delayed Fuses are handy on Miranda if she's not taking Advanced SLAM, though Adv SLAM may be better overall... Lots of options of where to take it. Here's an example: Miranda Doni (42) Barrage Rockets (8) Han Solo (14) Proton Bombs (5) Delayed Fuses (1) Ship total: 70 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 5 "Dutch" Vander (40) Ion Cannon Turret (5) Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4 Kyle Katarn (34) Perceptive Copilot (8) Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3 Jake Farrell (36) Crack Shot (1) Concussion Missiles (6) Ship total: 43 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2 Total: 200 View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z17XW97WW84WWW69W236Y27XW138WWWWWY48XWW54WWWY50X116WW99&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=
  14. What I mean by proxy is, just don't worry about what you don't have. Fly Miranda's base with the model on its pegs, and the other base with pegs but no model. I'm all about saving money in this game!
  15. I'm always the evil one who's pressuring people to proxy stuff, but... if you have a conversion kit to support one k-wing, you probably have everything for two K-Wings save for the 2nd model. And Miranda + Esege + Wedge together is a lot of fun!
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