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Vergilius

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  1. Not two lists, two archetypes of lists. Even though two lists might decide to use one squad different, or even four different squads, they still participate in a broad archetype. And ultimately, not merely lists, but competitive lists, lists that regularly do well at tournaments. What we know already is that Hawk134 lists have done well. They leverage the main strengths of the Starhawk and Krysta, and in the end, probably better than other Starhawk archetypes. It is just that by the time you pay for a Starhawk and outfit it, you can either grab two flotillas and more or less max your squads, which takes advantage of having that one really big ship. OR, you go light/no squads and start leveraging activation count. I'm not sure that medium squad list will emerge. I could be wrong in that. While someone could theoretically make it work some of the time, if you're winning with medium squads, why not increase your flexibility by going all in. Whatever 50 points or so that you're getting out of a ship really needs to capitalize on what that ship can bring versus its equivalent in squads, and it needs to be able to help the lighter squads take out the opposing squads AND help the Starhawk and squads kill ships.
  2. Points: 397/400 Commander: Kyrsta Agate (com) Assault Objective: Most Wanted Defense Objective: Contested Outpost Navigation Objective: Doomed Station GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points) - Bright Hope ( 2 points) - Toryn Farr ( 7 points) - Comms Net ( 2 points) = 29 total ship cost [ flagship ] Starhawk-class Battleship Mark I (140 points) - Kyrsta Agate (com) ( 20 points) - Concord ( 12 points) - Strategic Adviser ( 4 points) - Damage Control Officer ( 5 points) - Flight Controllers ( 6 points) - Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points) - Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points) - Leading Shots ( 4 points) - Magnite Crystal Tractor Beam Array ( 10 points) = 213 total ship cost GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points) - Leia Organa (off) ( 3 points) - Bomber Command Center ( 8 points) = 29 total ship cost 1 Jan Ors ( 19 points) 3 X-Wing Squadrons ( 39 points) 1 Gold Squadron ( 12 points) 3 Y-Wing Squadrons ( 30 points) 1 Rogue Squadron ( 14 points) 1 Green Squadron ( 12 points) = 126 total squadron cost Here's an example. I was looking to fit 10 squads into it, so it is much lighter on Rogues than I suggested, and it deviates from the Nav/Eng by taking Flight Controllers/EHB, pretty much expecting a steady stream of Squadron commands.
  3. I think in the end, we'll see two Starhawk builds. One is the Hawk134. That means you take: Hawk + Strat Adviser and two flotillas, and then cap out on squads. Most of these end up being rogues because the Hawk either wants to Nav or Engineer most of the time. Raymus hasn't been much of a thing since wave-4, possibly even wave-2. The reason is that flotillas provide such cheap command tokens while providing the benefits of the activation. For example, you can do exactly the same thing with Leia+Comms net as what CPtOBV provides above, except you will not tie up an officer slot with Raymus. I like Derlin in a Rebellion in the Rim campaign game, where it might take 5 turns of shooting at the Starhawk. But people will either decide they can't kill your hawk and won't shoot at it at all, or they'll have the kind of list that can drop it in 2 turns, in which case, something else is better. I've been looking more at Strat Adviser + Walex or DCO when I'm doing a 400 point build. It is just nice to be able to disable crit effects of any sort. On titles, unless you're putting Toryn on a flotilla, I wouldn't use Bright Hope. Use placement and positioning to keep them out of danger. Likewise, unless you need more threat range on Slicer Tools, there's not really a need to put Quantum Storm out there. I'd agree on the B, it just looks bloated, but if you drop it, you can cap squads at 134 points. The other direction a Starhawk build could go is the 6 activation route. This isn't quite as awesome as the BT/Avenger builds, but it can still be flown in a threatening way.
  4. I can’t speak for 400 points. Most of what I’d say is written elsewhere on the forums (do a search). Most games with six players are going to have disparities of ability. We have found that this isn’t huge. On the right objective and with the right fleet match-up, anyone can win. After a couple of rounds, you’ll have a better idea on match-ups and skill. Getting the match-ups is right is key, because if you know you can secure two wins, taking a loss in the third game might just be the right call.
  5. First player, the one who declared the assault picks the objective.
  6. We took our first campaign as "lessons learned." There should be a lot of those because none of us are as familiar with the 200 point format or objectives as we are for everything else. Then there are the ways that Destiny tokens, Spynet tokens, condition cards, and commander abilities all interact with the 200 point fleets and their limited but slowly increasing upgrades. So one of the lessons here is that you generally don't want to play Holonet override against a high engineering list unless you've got a plan to overcome the fact that they are going to pick up at least a few points from the objective. Some of these objectives are great because they pin the opponent to a key area of the map, even if you give up points. There is a path forward with most objectives.
  7. I'm not sure what you mean by the question. It sounds like your opponent had a pretty good list for playing that objective, and perhaps it would have been adviseable to pick a different object or assault somewhere else. The campaign adds a whole new dimension to how one plays the game. In a standard game, you've simply got your fleet and skill level versus the opponent's fleet and skill level. in the campaign, you can have up to three players on a side. Those players will have varying amounts of skill levels, and they'll match up with the opponents differently. Then there's one kind of advantage to being the defender in the campaign, but a different kind of advantage to being the one that can pick exactly when and where the assaults occur, and what objectives get picked. Add to that another layer of what upgrades each fleet needs, what upgrades the opponents need, where you can easily get on the map based on your bases and any diplomat tokens in effect. That's an awful lot of background to weave together every round of play. Finally, our experience has been that the effects of losing are not that fatal. In our first campaign, we went 1-2, then 1-2, before going 2-1, winning the pivotal, putting up another 2-1, and then a 3-0. That was a huge learning experience for everyone, and we've had another 1-2, 1-2, 2-1 set-up going into the next pivotal. However, all of the games and contests have felt much closer and much more chess-like. I hope this helps some, but some of our list-building strategy was built around the following: 1. How many green objectives does this list need to reach its intended peak? How many of those MUST be wins? 2. How many overall battles does this list need to be at its intended peak? What is the ratio of wins/losses? 3. How can we build flexibly? Can some upgrades be "nice" but not necessary? Can we leave room to adjust to the opponent's fleets. I ran an MC75 in the first campaign. I had MC75, CR90, Comms net flotilla, and Tycho/Shara. I had wanted an MC30 but found myself too point-strapped to get it. This ended up working out better because it had good balance. Tycho/Shara take some very specific play and builds out of the Imperials to counter them, and when you are at 60-80 points, they are tough to bring down and still have effective fighting forces left over. Without Sloan or the points for making MMJ sing, it is tough to get the anti-ship push that make those squad load-outs work. The MC75/CR90 combined well against an enemy large, but I only had to fight one after I got the upgrades that my list wanted. Finally, the MC75 was good against small ships. So in short, there was a little bit for every list type out there. Your opponents with the Onager/Vic put their eggs all in one basket. It will be a tough list in a lot of circumstances, but they won't always be able to match it against its ideal opponents. You might have to take some losses early on in order to build up to the point where you can take it later. I would think a squadron heavy list could ding it for the points it needs to win. I like that Onager/Vic list, for although it does have its eggs all in the same basket, it aims to do a couple of things really well and brings a lot of anti-ship firepower down range.
  8. One of the keys for RITR is: You win just by scoring more points than the opponent. You don't have to think about the tournament score at the end of the whole tournament, and while getting extra commander experience is nice, I find you tend to get enough xp by mid-campaign to be exactly where you want to be with commander abilities. So how can you win? 1. Pick off the opponent's support. You can take this any of a number of directions. An H9 shot that drops a flotilla or other small ship. Priming yourself to win the squad game and jump out of there. Making sure your ships are sturdy enough that they stay on the table. 2. Win on objective points. Since Green objectives are used to get uniques, thinking about how your list will play one or more of these objectives, particularly from first, but also how at least one of your lists might defend them as second, is pretty critical. Secondly, since many locations substitute objectives, you can look at objectives that are actually going to give you an advantage as first player, or will at least side-step the opponent's very painful objectives. You have much more of an opportunity to do this when declaring two assaults than otherwise. The trouble with some of the traditional approaches at 400 points is that you may not have the time or the damage output to accomplish a particular goal first, as you found out in trying to take down that engineering victory with your two ships. As a list gains potency, it starts to gain the ability to bring down an opponent's large more easily.
  9. I agree with CaptObvs. The Onager is looking like a solid pick every campaign. it would be helpful to post your lists at 200 points. I’m a big fan of the idea that you should build to be effective now, not after a bunch of upgrades come in.
  10. My playstyle leans toward MC30s personally, but both of them have their assets. The extra die on the AF works really well with Ackbar, and you can command squads better with that Assault Frigate. I'm a big fan of mixing squads with red dice. If you don't come close to me, then my red dice dominance will win the game. If you do come closer to me, then you fight in my flak and my squads have a chance of destroying yourself before moving on to your ships. The trick is finding that right balance of ships and squads, and the right mix of ship-pushed/rogue squads.
  11. Quoted because I strongly echo these sentiments. We've now played one complete and are almost to the pivotal battle in the second campaign. So we're seeing the same kinds of things in our games and have seen how our lists have evolved. First, Definitely build to win now. This means looking precisely at what your fleets have in them and what upgrades they need. TRC90s for example are potent right from the start. OE or LS on certain ships gives them the hitting power they need. Second, keep your build flexible. Part of the fun in RITR is that you can adjust to what your opponents are doing. This might be in the form of what squads you take, but it can also be in the form of upgrades. You can then tailor those upgrades so that your lists better counter your opponents' lists. Do not pick upgrades that might tailor to specific fleets you see competitively at 400 points. Those upgrades might provide less utility to your fleet in the campaign, and at 200 points, they eat up a disproportionately larger part of your list. Furthermore, since your list only evolves slowly, those upgrades represent opportunity costs for other upgrades that might be more useful. Your first opportunity to pick an upgrade is at fleet design. Make it count. Third, definitely look ahead to how your fleets combine for the pivotal battle. I don't have a magic deployment, squad or activation count, but simply keep an eye on it. Fourth, remember that RITR games are played to victory points. Killing one squad and jetting is a perfectly good win. Fifth, the game has a strategic dimension. I call the tactical dimension the level of initial list design and how the individual games play out. The strategic dimension concerns the VP totals, where on the map you decide to assault, the value of specific tokens, how you're going about building bases and where. Some fleets thrive greatly on specific tokens and bases. There are so many good places on the map that no one gets shut off at the initial base set-up, but depending upon how the games unfold, you might find one or both sides picking bases. Sixth, extremes tend to work out well, same as at 400 points. You want to have a particular list idea and then carry out that idea extremely well. This could be squads or activations. Seventh, despite having all the upgrades available to you, resist simply trying to fill every upgrade slot, same as you would at 400 points. But do recognize because of how assaults and defenses work that your fleet will evolve based on the campaign. Be flexible with your build. It is helpful if you can enjoy a small addition to your fleet. Eight, have a plan for if you lose. In our second campaign round, one of our guys developed a fleet that would reach full 250 points after 5 rounds of play, and he could get most of it on losses and only needed a handful of green objectives for uniques. Another one of our players picked a fleet that ideally wanted a bunch of expensive stuff. This is doubly true when you throw player skill in the mix. The player who wanted the expensive stuff was one of our weaker players, so he's also less likely to get it. Ninth, Recognize that squads are one of the easiest pulls to get in quantity. Even picking up two generic squads can greatly enhance your list. Furthermore, squads can be discarded with a cheap upgrade type to get a more powerful one. So while you might start with two uniques and two generic squads at the start of the game, you can play a green objective with squads and pick a new ace or two, and then discard the generics to turn a 3-5 point upgrade into a more powerful one that you really need. Indeed, this is one of the best ways to conserve points at list design. For example, DTT is 5 points. If you really need specific units, I'd get those first, and then worry about turning DTT into TRC. Tenth, recognize that some squads are quite a bit better as veterans than others. Maarek and Dash have innate rerolls/dice adjustment, so while Veteran status still improves them, not as much. Ten Numb is really enjoying his Veteran status in my game, and others with powerful crit effects can be greatly benefited. Eleventh, think about your build not just from the standpoint of your fleet, but also your commander path. Some of the commander abilities incentivize certain fleet types. Some of them can mitigate the need to use specific upgrades elsewhere in your list. Twelth, uniques are not difficult, they just require thought and planning. You have plenty of green objective opportunities. This includes your assault(s) every round, but also what the opponents pick. Since they often want the same things (titles, officers). some of it comes down to whether everyone really wants to go for the uniques or decides to steer away from them. In our latest round of games, people dived on unique objectives quickly. So we saw titles go out in the first round, officers and squadrons go out in the second round, and we're looking at 3 unique objectives being played in the third round. The Demonstration of Force pivotal battle is also considered a unique objective for the purpose of upgrades, so that can help. Finally, on Starhawk in RITR. Yes, it is hard to kill. I had an opponent with even odds though last game, but the dice were with me, so I lived. It isn't a slam dunk. In our first campaign, we saw very few large ships go down. If you aren't built to take down a large, then you're not getting down. So that applies even more to a Starhawk. One critical question however is that you sacrifice both squads and activation count to get it, and you end up with a ship whose overall firepower is about the same as the MC75 30-40 points behind it. In my first campaign, I played MC75, CR90, Tycho/Shara, GR75. That had strong whaling potential, a respectable squad presence from two of the best rebel squads, and the right 3 activation count. It had a really strong upgrade path that worked well on losses and made wins count for itself. In contrast, I now have a Starhawk without the Magnites, which are pretty good on it and I wish I had. I've got Rapid Launch Bay B-wings. That gives me the chance to dump them at the opportune moment to minimize damage from enemy squads and pick off as much as I can of the enemy. I'll have to sit down and think about the Starhawk some more. I think for the present campaign, it has worked out, but I don't think it will work out absolutely every campaign. We're entering round-3. In round-1, I faced a heavy squad single activation ISD as second player, and that worked out strongly to my advantage, eventually winning the squad game and I think picking up a victory token or two. In round-2, I was first against an Onager list. From the pre-game dice estimations, I figured this would be close. Maneuvering and double-arcs would matter. In the end, I pulled out the win. I just added Derlin/Flight Commander, somewhat looking at the meta I was facing (Onager, Arquittens).
  12. We noticed that Starhawk and Onager cardboard may not fully fill the large plastic base.
  13. Good thread and good topic. When I saw the Starhawk, I immediately thought of the two poles of the ISD fleets. On the one hand, you see two-ship ISD lists, the large number of which performed well at the last worlds, and which is still a solid archetype. On the other hand, you see the 6 activation BT Avenger. It seemed to me at least, that the Starhawk builds would go in one of those two directions. In my respects, this mirrors the "all-in" squad approach versus the no to light squad approach that we have seen for a while. While the most recent campaign+ship expansions have given a few more tools to flak, I'm hesitant on the whole to think that those will do enough to dislodge the basic "all or nothing" squad approach. Add to this that Krysta is a cheap commander that benefits whatever single ship she goes on, and I think the Hawk134 is probably going to end up being the basic approach, with the squads increasing the threat range and cleaning up whatever the hawk cannot kill, and the hawk providing a key flak bubble into which an opponent must fly if they want to engage the squads. My first hawk list went for the 6 activation approach, but in a way, that doesn't leverage Krysta to the fullest extent. I'll probably still bounce back and forth between these poles, if only because it is fun and adds some variety to the game.
  14. Some reflections after a few games, and also looking at the match-ups that I could potentially face as those fleets scale with upgrades. 1. The absence of an ECM AND the absence of Krysta make the ship considerably more vulnerable. While it does have plenty more shields and hull than the other larges, I've got a couple of larges in the other fleets that are focused on accuracy generation. When they start flinging 2 or more accuracies or accuracy+Intel Officer, they might as well have taken XI7. 2. One of my opponents took an Onager, this is where the Magnite beams would be extremely useful for crossing the board and forcing the opponent to go Speed-2 into you. There are a lot of ships that really want to keep their distance, but for whom increasing their speed makes all the difference. It isn't just for slowing people down. I didn't start with Magnites and didn't make them part of my game-plan, but this ship really really really wants that upgrade if you take it in RITR. 3. Commands get a little awkward with the Rapid Launch Bays. We've been able to set the dials how I wanted and then use the Destiny token as a dial so that I can always do the one squadron command with them, but in reality, this ship wants to Nav at a critical moment so that it can double arc (or arc dodge) and Engineer the rest of the time. But the B-wings really want to be dropped via Squadron Command, and then commanded via Squadron on the next round. So while the build is cool enough, and the principles of point denial are sound enough, I think there are better Starhawk builds at 200 points. 4. I've had a couple of points where I was a little worried about being able to kill something of my opponent's back. Although the Starhawk is beefier, I just finished an Ordinance MC75 build that was really amazing. if you can set up a double-arc well on the MC75, you're basically doing as much damage, especially when you start adding Ordinance and rerolls to its black dice. 5. I've got all of 1 deployment. I just picked up a Spynet token. That's going to be tons of fun. 6. Command Bridge or Command Staff open up some strange support options for your big ship. There are too many good officers that can either provide key support benefits to your fleet (Toryn) or that can keep alive this strong sturdy tank (Derlin might very well get 5 rounds of use in RITR, Lando when your Brace is locked). And almost every list out there has some way to lose on objectives. In RITR, as many of you who have played it have discovered, you can end up picking a bunch of really good objectives for your list, but then never ever play those objectives in the entire campaign. Some of the strategy is a matter of looking for assaults that have objectives that are favorable for you, but really bad for your opponents. And while there's not a great way to take down that single Starhawk, especially early on, there are ways to score points on objectives and ways to deny points to the opponent. Killing 2 squads while losing 1 is certainly a way to win a RITR game, and you've got to be prepared for that. It makes it challenging.
  15. Lots of lists can kill large ships. Also, where a rebellion in the rim game requires merely that you win, not by how much, abs objective points represent a higher percentage of points than in a 400 point game, you’ve got chances to pick a good objective and run.
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