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Everything posted by CptArgonaut

  1. Thanks for the heads up. I recognized the name from the Mynock podcast, but I didn't know in what context. I didn't want to come off as rude. English is not my native language and my vocabulary is limited, so I might use expressions that sound way harsher than intended. Biophysical wrote: "The notion that x7 takes out 2-attacks ships makes no sense to me for the same reasons." But I meant to "take out" of the meta game, not to destroy them. I thought that was clear from my other phrasing like "a meta that pushed out two-attack ships" or "Defenders remove 2-attack-ships from the game." So I think we just misunderstood each other. Because otherwise his HLC comment still doesn't make sense to me. But it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
  2. Yeah Chief, you may uh.... may want to rethink who you say that to. Yes, it's of course a typo. Offense ON swarms, as in 'against' them. Should have been clear from the context as I'm talking about damage mitigation all this time.
  3. Agreed. The difference of the x7 evade is to me whether it's possible or futile.
  4. Which is why you should reread my last line - which had an error by the way, it's even worse. Chances for an attack with Focus+TL are 56% and 71% for Focus and Evade to keep them. So roughly 40% to keep both - which is huge! Attack with Focus or TL is of course worse, 66% and 80% to keep either, and 52% to keep both. So there you go. A swarm needs to pull all kinds of tricks. And inbefore Crackshot: 2 red + Focus + TL + Crackshot vs 3 green + Focus + Evade: 0.33 expected damage (71% chance to miss) and 56% and 17% chance to keep Focus or Evade, respectively. 7 TIE swarms might be lucky and pop one defender by expending all their ressources. But the rest of the game will be onesided.
  5. It's not about the offense of swarms, so your remark about /D or HLC is irrelevant. Instead the question is if 2attack ships can harm Defenders/x7. And the math is unambiguous: Expected damage: 2 Red vs 3 Green, unmodified: 0.35 2 Red + Focus or TL vs 3 Green: 0.61 2 Red + Focus + TL vs 3 Green: 0.84 And those have a naked Defender 2 Red vs 3 Green+Evade: 0.06 2 Red vs 3 Green+Focus: 0.11 2 Red + Focus or TL vs 3 Green + Evade: 0.13 2 Red + Focus or TL vs 3 Green + Focus: 0.22 2 Red + Focus or TL vs 3 Green + Evade + Focus: 0.02 2 Red + Focus + TL vs 3 Green + Evade: 0.21 2 Red + Focus + TL vs 3 Green + Focus: 0.33 2 Red + Focus + TL vs 3 Green + Evade + Focus: 0.046 Or in short: you won't damage the Defender. And there is a ~50% chance that the defender won't use one of the tokens, and ~25% chance that he will use neither.
  6. That is simply not true. The expected damage of 3 red dice + Focus + TL against a Defender with the Evade is 0.8. Against Defender with Focus+Evade it's a measly 0.3dmg. For 4 red dice against Defender + Evade you get 0.44, for 4 red + Focus/TL it's 1.03 and 4 red + Focus+TL you get 1.64. So yes, a 4-attack ship with Focus and TL can bring them down very quickly, in 3-6 attacks... But if the Defender used Focus, even 4 red + Focus+TL yields only 0.94 expected damage, so you need 6+ attacks. That's not "fairly quickly". What does the math look like for every subsequent attack on the same Defender once you strip all the mods away? Yes 1 attack, even fully modified 4 dice, has trouble dealing damage. It's the second and third attacks that kill them. One on one is rough to push damage through but most players realize you have to combine fire. This goes back to the OP saying it's about who can position correctly to achieve their goals. As I wrote in my first post: I see the main problem that Defenders remove 2-attack-ships from the game. The math gets a bit too complicated. E.g. there's a 42% chance that the defender can keep his focus against a 4red TL+Focus attack. For two consecutive 3red, full token attacks against a full token defender: 14% chance that the defender keeps both -> 0.31 expected damage on second attack 32% chance that the defender keeps the evade -> 0.80 expected damage on second attack 44% chance that the defender keeps the focus -> 0.98 expected damage on second attack So overall two consecutive attacks by a 3red dice ship has an expected damage of 0.31 from the first attack and 0.73 from the second. If we are going to a third consecutive attack, and I think we can stop there because 4ship lists are not very common, it gets a bit more messy, but the gist of it is that the third attack is relatively likely to go against a tokenless defender. Which results in a whooping 1.7 expected damage. And this was with full-token focus+TL attackers in range 2 (or range1 for 2dice attacks). Also spending the focus on attack because it looks much worse if there is one of the two missing... In the mean time we get of course counterattacks by the defenders. So 3 attack ships have some problems, because they need great shots with full tokens. The 4 attack ships are of course better off. But how many ships with 4 attack can you combine in a list? If we look at the factions (maybe I forgot some): - Empire has Whisper and soon the Upsilon, or , at range 1, Defenders, VT-49, Lambda Shuttle, some TIEs (Zeta, ...), Interceptors, Firespray, Advanced +Title, and soon the Striker. - Rebels has the VCX-100, HLCDash, or, at range 1, X-Wing, T70, Attack shuttle, B-/E-Wing, Miranda-shield, U-Wing, YT1300 and ARC170. - Scum has only range1 4 attack dice Of course there are ways to increase the dice, e.g. Finn. Also secondary weapons made a comeback due to Defenders, which is a good thing. This is percieved as unfair because Defenders don't have to fly outstandingly well for their performance - but it's necessary to outfly them to have a chance at beating them. It was mentioned before in this thread, Defenders have a low skill floor, and it's necessary to fly relatively better than the Defender player to win. In that way it's almost the definition of being imbalanced.
  7. That's on point. As someone mentioned, the skill floor is _very_ low for defenders. The skill ceiling is also quite high, which is probably why many good players don't like the defender bashing. It's still a ship where much can be learned. Also your other point is very important: This means defender take much - for many too much - initiative in the sense that they force the other players to react. And not in the good way by playing it a certain way. No, just the defender itself forces all others to completely change their approach just for that one ship. That's not a priori a bad thing. It can be frustrating though.
  8. That is simply not true. The expected damage of 3 red dice + Focus + TL against a Defender with the Evade is 0.8. Against Defender with Focus+Evade it's a measly 0.3dmg. For 4 red dice against Defender + Evade you get 0.44, for 4 red + Focus/TL it's 1.03 and 4 red + Focus+TL you get 1.64. So yes, a 4-attack ship with Focus and TL can bring them down very quickly, in 3-6 attacks... But if the Defender used Focus, even 4 red + Focus+TL yields only 0.94 expected damage, so you need 6+ attacks. That's not "fairly quickly".
  9. I disagree because: 1. free actions that can't be blocked and without a penalty make the game easier 2. it builds a meta that pushed out two-attack ships The second point is more important. I've mentioned this in another thread before, but there are three kinds of tanky ships: Beefy (lots of hull+shield, low or no agility), mitigating (prevent damage through (free) actions) and regenerating (regen shields or shed damage). Unfortunately they are usually conflated. The beefy and the regenerating tanks are no problem for any other ship - it's a race against time in the former, and a question of burst damage in the latter. But most ships could in theory win. The third type, the damage mitigating tank, is a bigger problem as it renders some ships unable to destroy them. Defenders are just one example, but they are the most prominent one, which is why I bring it up. I see three main contributors to the problem of Defenders: 1. The free evade of the x7 title. This allows the defenders to token up with focus+evade in every round. Together with their native 3 agility, you need a TL+focus 4 attack ship to get some damage through (0.94 expected damage). 2. The other stats of the defender: PS5-6 is not bad except against aces. 3/3/3/3 is phenomenal (in fact only 5 ships have 3atk/3agi, of which 2 die fast, 1 is the starviper and then brobots). Then we have white K-turns, which makes the defender the prime jouster. In all, the ship is either too cheap with the free evade, or well priced but should not get the evade. 3. The master of variance, Supreme Chancellor himself. He direly needs a range3,an action or some form of cost for his ability. I agree with you in the sense that Defenders with x7 caused a lot of innovation and still do. But the general direction of damage mitigation for no cost is not good for the game because it pushes out two-attack ships and is almost an inherent fun-vampire for others. Edit: quoted too much
  10. I think the idea of "the tank" is not quite right because it conflates two types: the beefy tank and the circumventing or damage mitigating tank, even though I admit that the lines are blurred. The beefy tank has a ton of hull and shield (I'll call it HP for now) and no or low agility. The VCX-100 is the most typical case. Fat Han is here because even though the MF+C-3PO allows him to consistently prevent 2 damage on one attack, that only happens once per round and after that he relies on 1 puny agility die. So a swarm can still eat him up. The mitigating tank has ways to completely ignore damage. The Defender is the prime example with his evade+focus+3 greens plus 6HP. Granted the tokens are single use, too. But the amount of defensive capabilities AND 2-3 ships mean that damage will trickle through very slowly if at all. Or the Shadowcaster with 9HP, 2 green, and Latts. So I'd suggest that the two types are treated seperately. The beefy tank is no problem at all. But the mitigating tank just can't be destroyed by 2-attack-ship-lists.
  11. Outmaneuver is very similar to Predator wrt to offensive capability. Some guy just posted a graph on reddit today, comparing 2 attack dice vs 0-3 agility. With that in mind a 1pt Outmaneuver might be too strong. But then again I love the idea to make it just a core mechanic like the ranges, which would basically give it to every ship.
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