You don't need Point-D-Reroute. If you get a Crit you H9 it into an Accuracy. You then Warlord that into a Hit. Two cards only. Expensive yes. But it is one of a few guaranteed damages that you can dish out so I would expect to pay for it. I'm not disagreeing it's expensive or inefficient and nor is my next argument an exercise in polemics but your extra bombers/ties can't be compared in a vacuum. Adding two Ties/Bomber for the 16 points sounds great. I have a cheaper ship and more squadrons. But now you've add a whole layer of complexity that isn't immediately apparent when you just compare Card vs Card, Dice vs Dice. * How am i going to command those Ties? If i have 1 Rhymer and X Bombers I probably need that Squadron X Value for my Bombers. Can i active them all off one command? Probably not if I'm doing a bomber list * If i don't command the extra Ties they are less effective. If i do my Tie Bombers are less effective. * 3 Hull squadrons will definitely be killed. They might serve their purpose just by pinning, hopefully trading but I've lost 16 points. Am i more likely to loose my VSD compared to 2 Ties? Depends on how you plan on flying i guess! * My Ties don't interact well with ships, by my H9 does. * An extra Tie bomber suffers from the same issue of Command inefficiency if the numbers aren't matched. Will you be able to fight with it? Absolutely. But it will suffer from move or shoot issues. I'm not saying it's not valid to run more Ties, i think that is perfectly reasonable. Extra deployment, extra dice, extra squadron options. But it's not as if they don't come with their own issues. And i think this has to be the single most lengthy discussion on H9 ever

To be fair, for anti-squadron duties, I'd rather have a GSD 2 or a dedicated fighter wing than having Warlord + H9. I understand your point about flexibility, but even against ships, 16 points to ensure a single extra damage isn't worth it in my opinion (at 300 points, that's 5% of your fleet and 4% of your fleet total at 400 points). That's a maximum of 10 extra damage over 5 turns assuming you manage to double arc each turn, which is decent but can be easily mitigated by Engineering Commands. Warlord already increases the average damage of Red Dice by 33% (0.75 vs 1) for 10% of the cost of the ship so I'd rather invest in Enhanced Armaments to maximize that, but that's just me. Obivously the analysis is a bit skewed because there's only a single accuracy result per red dice, but considering you only have 12.5% chance of rolling them, rolling at least 2 of them is a statistical improbability (1.56% chance roughly per throw). I'm not saying this is bad by any means, but 8 points on top of Warlod is way too expensive for my taste. I'd rather invest these 8 points into Rhymer to triple the range of the Bombers which is likely to yield more than 10 damage over the course of the game, assuming I already have a Bomber Wing. That's a sounder investment against ships in my book ! Victories and bombers aren't mutually exclusive. A Victory, ISD, Raider and Bombers can fit in the same list. H9&Warlord + Generic Bombers is good anti-squadron fire because it's 1 auto + 1 consistent damage that can't be braced. They actually support each other quite well. I have probably run H9 more than most and find the flexibility better in certain builds, namely Bomber builds. Yes it costs more than most Turbolaser but most do one thing. H9 can actually take pop shots evade ships, crush no ECM sips, auto damage squadron. Upgrades fit a 3 ship + bomber fleet. You simply cannot make 4 ships + a decent bomber compliment (Imp). You can squeeze in upgrades though. Sure it's cost inefficient on paper but it's is utterly impossible to quantify 'efficiency' and what that even means in a game with innumerable variables.

You don't have to hunt squadrons. The point of H9 + Warlord is flexibility. The more squadrons somebody takes the better, if they don't have many you can plink, if they have none you can turn up an accuracy to push a lot of damage or vs ECM flip a double. This is not limited to arcs. Time spent flying will help you get two on more consistently.

I love 'no player worth his salt' comments. As if only one player can effect the outcome of a game.If a ship is max range of a VSD, moves at a minimum of speed 1 semi towards it you can do a speed 2 turn that puts front and side arc in close range. A tourney winning stratergy needs to involve killing ships. They have to engage something. You can force that engagement. The 'no player worth his salt' is a fallacy in a two player game. Warlord + H9 is perfectly fine. It has merit against ships too and very much helps the squadron killing. I am testing Ruthless/Quad in our squad heavey meta, def not something for ery day use!

The three main things I do for VSD. I) Asteroid deployments ii) deploy offset angle iii) Never rush in for no reason. I have been running VSD I Wulf Carrier, Glad, Raider, 134 points squad. I) Asteroids: I pick asteroids and debris without fail. Forget the station. I deploy asteroids down the middle. Straight down. Range 3.5-4. Then 5.5-6. Then left over debris left or right 2 spaces and in between. That way they have to cross the debris. Or avoid it by pointing their nose towards your board. ii) I never deploy with my rear arc parallel to the deployment edge. Let's call it 45-65 degree. Against-broad siders you cannot turn to evade without creeping foward into long range. Mind you that's because I'm doing squadron commands turn 2 onwards and using Wulf to adjust speed. Against a conga line I point towards the way they are heading. There is a massive problem for the conga line. They cannot chase you AND shoot you if you are in front at long range. In order to get their side arcs they need to turn left or right to present it. This means they have a hard time catching up. Unless they go speed 3, which is not the best speed for them. As they chase or turn in I generally do two things. Head for the corner of their board or start to rainbow back to my corner. That way you are either in the front arc running or if they turn to hit you rainbow turn back to the deployment zone. All the while Firsprays/Bossk/Bobba/Vader (all Bomber or double dice) are hitting the front ship. They can't point defense and Akbar at the same time. III) Never fight a loosing battle. Why send in 3 red dice vs 5? I time my push. They have to move the first. Once it is settled you can swing in at speed 2 or fly to the front. You hopefully landed a double tap. Let's say you landed in side arc. Well that's why I bid for first. I activate first and fly away. Not to mention other ships like Glads/Raiders for blocking. They can jump over at speed 3 but that separates them and ruins the line. A speed 2 Gup can't jump a well placed Glad.

This must purely be an American phenomenon. 15 tournments post Wave 2 and Akbar showed in a top 3 once. I know why this is the case. We are a squadron meta. Bombers in my front arc and my whole list is flying into it. Oh I guess I'll just die now. A conga line has done nothing against the best list (2 consecutive 1st places in 10+ person tournments). The best part is it isn't even a Bomber list, the apparent counter to Akbar. It consists of a Glad, two raiders and an ISD II + Tie screen. Whats lost in all the talk of numbers, red dice, expected damage etc is that this is a war game. With the deployment being one of the most critical parts to setting yourself up for success. So 6-7 deployments is more than enough to get the drop on a Conga. Akbar is so predictable. I saw the diagram of Guppies a few posts up and laughed. All you need to account for the lead ships side arc. How hard is that to avoid. Why would you fly into the conga kill zone? You have deployments, move Commands and as good as/superior speed/movement to the guppy. Use them!

Victories are amazing. Despite the lack of ECM their cost benift at Wave 2 improved significantly. Because it's cheap you have the potential to get massive synergy in upgrades. The Doom Roller: VSDI, Dominator, Expanded Launcher, xi7, extras can include Intel Officer, Wulf. Use with Screed or Vader, 10 dice front arc, 5 from the side. 15 dice on a double tap! Don't forget Dominator can be used on squadron fire and out of any arc. Wulf Carrier: Boosted Comms, Wulf, extras can include, Corruptor, Expanded Hanger (I prefer boosted), E-Armament. Squdron Auto Damage: H9 Turbo, Warlord is auto damage for 1 blue dice. Extras include Quad Laser Turrets, Ruthless strategist for 2 auto damage Ozzel is actually awsome with Vics. The best way to avoid damage is stay out of arc. If you can end a turn out of range I often stop at 0. So long as they don't move up close AND have first turn you will be fine. You have two choices. Intercept or run. Intercepting with a Victory involves knowing when a ship is going to turn. Knowing how to bait ships to turn into or away from you, where it will head, how to pick objectives either yours or theirs to direct their movement. Running with a Victory involves hiding behind 3-4 bombers and rouges to punish pursuers. I consider the most important aspect of flying a VSD is how to offset it. Never point it straight at an enemy, offset it so when you turn at spped 2 you will have a close range double arc AND you might even be able to fly past at speed two if you live. Second is going first. Close range, slow, not survivable. I want to be able to shoot first in case the one shot of Doom Roller is all im going to get.

I suspect our area running Glad is (part of) why Akbar is non existent. An engine tech glad intercepts the conga line very easily. The front arcs don't do much vs Glad. Or APT vs 4 hull ships? I have driven up to an Mc80. It goes ram, ram, demolisher, crit. Nex turn. Shoot/crit, shoot/crit, ram, ram. Even non Motti is still alive and they might ram me in their turn! I will take the eventual trade because the points favour me. Against ISD I think it is going to turn/trend left or right. I deploy on the same side they turn point or they plan on turning (if they deploying pointing their left, i deploy left of it). That way when they commit to the turn i drive into side arc or around. So still beware first player glads!

Demolisher is even better in wave 2. APT and Ordnance Expert. Ozzel is great for it as well. A token drops into into the right speed to stay close and not overshoot like it could do. And can confirm this is a good use. Squad heavy meta in which a 2 ISD list with firesprays take down first place. Got to use redirect vs Bombers, maybe even a brace vs Crit/hit. Now Avenger shoots. Or you don't use the tokens to wait for the big shot. That's equally bad. Don't forget Avenger stops squadrons using tokens so the point defence is pretty savage when supporting your own squads.

Hey all. Presenting my favorite carrier in the game. Wulf ISD I for 6 activations. We play in a squadron heavy meta. I initally ran this carrier with Vanilla non-rouge black dice squads and Ties. I then went to VSD Intel/Rouge carrier now I'm back to try Intel rouge ISD version. I have lots of experience in squadron builds so ask any questions if you want to know about Imp squads. Play testing over the next few days for a big tourney next week. http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=8924 Overview: Bid for first place. This makes I) Gladiator very powerful II) killing squadrons before they counter attack you III) Raiders are better first Grab a Nav token on the ISD. Turn 2 grab a Squadron token and from turn 3 you can command 6 squads or 5 with a Nav speed change in which you keep the token due to Wulf. Try to Ryhmer any aggressive ships turn one with rouge.

Defiance needs defending? When some hits you side arc +1 blue or black and concentrates the front for two black at long range you've just taken a beating and seen someone use it correctly. I think it is the hardest to use title but has the most power. I've never seen a Mc80 list bid ever. So already activated caveat isn't terrible.

No? Why the **** do people just invent quotes when responding to people. Where did I ever suggest what you said . When your so called powerful front arcs are less powerful at certain ranges why are you fighting on those terms? Carriers, especially the ISD, are great at swinging in. But it has to be well timed or you loose because by the time you bring your ideal guns to bear it might be to late.

Good that the discussion has move to include the boarder spectrum of the game. I find that Imp bombers have it pretty good. All you need to do is make Akbar chase you with front Arc. They can't take lumbering flanking moves if you are running (or baiting them) and have enough time to kill you. If you deploy facing them then straight towards them they can easily peel off and surround you. Don't play into that. I deploy my debris straight down the middle the board looks somewhat split in half, left and right, roughly 1.5 spaces away from each other. I deploy one ship in the middle. I deploy all my fighters, depending on the list between it's Rhymer + another 6-11. I have won the activation game. Now i deploy my carrier on the opposite slide of their forces on this split board. For example two Guppys on my left means I deploy on the right. You have an incredible advantage now. Akbar needs to turn the broad side to hit you. But if you deploy away from them they need to point towards you to catch up. You can't catch up by pointing your broad side square on at someone. By deploying away from them it ruins the way the want to fly. Make Akbar come towards you. They will eventually want to peel off either left or right at medium-max range. But again this is super easy to predict. But flying away isn't going to win a blowout game for you. That is where Gladiators, Bombers play their part. Engine Techs and Boosted comms punish Akbar hard. You sit your bombers in the front arc so if they have the double point defense they don't have Akbar. If you fly into the front arc of a Reb with Demolisher its all bad for them. If they jump over you (guppy) they are now split up or they are stuck (mc80). Salvation is simple to avoid with Engine Tech, even without. The front arc is so narrow. Just buy a miniatures laser pointer.

Rieekan. Your Nebulons are flown to die. They punch well above their weight in damage but pay for that in shields. Look to activate 2-3 three Scruggs/Jan Ors. You want to fly at a speed and range that will give you at least two full Yavaris turns for 12 dice rolls. Forget about Nim. To much setup.

The VSD can use Warlord + H9 Turbolaser for a garunteed 1 point of damage point defense. This is the most reliable point defense outside a raider. The funniest part is it makes it the best ship for Quad Laser Turret and Ruthless Strategist. Two damage on the defense and attack. I run various combinations of this in my squadron heavy meta. It is actually highly effective! If you don't like that you need anything with double dice point defense, gunnery team and a handful of shotgun rouges (agressor/yt). If someone is squadron heavey a token fighter screen of 4 fighters (unless it's Jan/3 Xwing) is not an answer.

- Sontir + 1-2 Engine Techs on the glads and Gunnery Team on the ISD. Techs can be an extra two raw damage if you ram them twice. Also fly into the front arc of rebel ships, one exception is Nebulons. The Mc80 can't leave and the Guppy has to go speed 3 to jump over you, which can put it out of position. Massive wide turns with Demolisher/glads (to get into the rear) do work in two situations. Your ISD travels slowly then around turn 5-6 the glad is behind and the ISD is in front. You can pile on massive damage but you have a limited window to kill. The other one is Objectives. Flanking ships can get behind Fire Lanes/Outpost to force them off and swing back loads of points your way. If I'm playing a no victory point objective I use Engine techs to avoid arcs. Fly into the front against weak front arcs or use it to escape strong front arcs and stay in the side for one turn vs ISD, Neb etc. then close in and kill, kill, kill!

Some tidbits about Imp Squadrons * Forget about anything with 3 hull. If you are facing squadrons they are outclassed. If you are second you won't have anything to attack back with. * Sontir, Howlrunner, are traps, add in two ties before you run these. At three health their defense tokens are not enough. Use aggressively because at 2 health an accuracy can kill them. They are both snipe-able and their abilities are avoided. * Aggressors are the best all round Imp ship. Black battery, great anti fighter, counter, 5 hull, rouge, expensive but not terribly so. I take 4 of those over 8 ties any day. That is where i started. This is where i ended. Some tidbits about Carriers *Boosted Comms is an auto include above everything else including Expanded Hanger. It is that good for squadrons. * Flight controls are better than an extra Tie. You will loose that tie. Your squadrons are weaker. You run FC they are dangerous all the time and Firesprays become aggressors, Tie Interceptors roll 6 (+swarm). * Tarkin is not a good choice. You can fit an extra Firespray with Ozzel. Almost an Aggressor for Motti. Or two generics etc...etc.. *Wulf is an auto include. Take a Navigate token turn 1. Take a Squadron turn 2. Then you can safely use squadron commands all game knowing you can use your Nav token and keep it. Wulf is also an extra squadron activation with the turn 2 token. Some personal favortie tidbits * Darth Vader is good Wave 2. Maybe one of the best. He can fit in with the Cost, takes care of an Escort does massive spike damage. He rolls bomber levels of damage vs ships because of his critical ability (just without actually having bomber) and can one shot squadrons. Add in flight controllers he is a beating. Have another look at him. He is close to auto for me now. * Bossk is the boss. Black blue against ships, shreds squads, rouge, 7 hull.

Because all ship is healthy?

Bombers are the way to go. Two ISD is begging to be shredded. I have seen a two ISD list do well only once before, by the best player in the area, who routinely comes first with any list. If you 'split' the focus you will also split your firepower. If you stick them together the movement is predictable and easily countered. More ISD is not the solution to loosing ISD to Akbar (or whatever). Hiding behind Boosted Comms with squadron 4-5-6 is.

Ah yes the great Akbar non issue. Boosted comms, Engine Tech (into the front arc), profit? Akbar is predictable and is easily crushed by bombers. I am happy to face any Akbar list.

The big problem you have without running squadrons is you loose to bombers. So you take a token amount of squadrons as a shield. Unfortunately a tokenistic squadron screen will do almost nothing against a well turned or all in squadron/bomber list. This is from the perspective of a squadron heavy meta, talking 100-134 points of squadrons. No a single all ship list can perform vs squadrons. If you in a squadron meta you need more than just a screen. In time squadrons are going to be supreme. I'll write more up but there was a lot left out of this Ep and i really think this comes from a lack of experience with squadrons.