Love it. Breaks Tarkin open, Ywings/generic bombers much improved, rebel hero bombers go nuts, Luke/Keyan, repair/tanking fleets, better activations. If what is revealed is it I'm very happy.

I would like to welcome Tarkin to the meta and about **** time too.

Not salty. Because who takes Advanced Gunnery when Mc80s are abound? Most Wanted is where it's at. It's just a dumb rule because ISDs are not proving to be the menace everyone, myself included, thought they would be.

Ahh okay. I might just chill till the proof reading is sorted out (seriously wtf) BUT this is what we are in store for if the tourney changes are correct.

It was nice playing you Bwings. "Squadrons must be placed within distance 1-2 of a friendly ship and within the deployment area" Until now you could deploy squadrons 1-2 spaces outside of the deployment zone. For whatever reason (i suspect turn 1 Rouge+Rhymer attacks) this is no longer the case. I would like the hear the reasoning behind this. To borrow from Frank Zappa it seems like treating dandruff with decapitation. * All speed 2 squadrons have essentilaly lost 1 turn * All speed 2 squadrons will never be able to overtake/be in front of their carrier (besides a speed 0 turn, awesome) * Speed 3 non-rouge squadrons don't fare much better and are delayed. Because Xwings/Ywings run away crazy! * Becasue nothing can be foward deployed and there is limited space besides ships you will have to deploy backwards. Increasing the distance yet again. * Rhymer still exists so Firesrpays are only partially delayed and Corruptor is still a thing Now you are horned into using Independence. Awesome. Totally unnecessary change that nobody was calling for, has made difficult to use slow squadrons even less appealing and has does little to fix the only thing I can think that the change was inteded to fix. GG.

The Gunnery Team change is specificlly ******* over ISDs...for no reason whatsoever.

A medium size, red dice, speed 3 maybe 4 for Imp. And an Escort with Counter too.

Inital thoughts. To many non rouge squadrons for a max Squadron Command of 2 (3 with token/Tantive/but that dictates the Command is uses) Not enough spike damage on the squadrons for either bombing or anti squadroning. You can't focus anything down by commanding groups of 2 and maybe 1 group of 3 (yavaris+token) squadrons at a time. They have time to counter attack with squadron commands of 3-4-5-6 to your 2-3. Not enough ship firepower, TRC will be cancelled at Long Range. So now most ships rely on 2 additional red dice, without including Concentrate Fire. But Will you use CF on Tantive (or Yavaris) if you want to pass squadron tokens to your pocket carriers? So even less potential dice. At medium range you don't get much more powerful, they can only use defensive rerolls but you dont get much more dice (1 Blue Neb side, 2 on Cr90) compared to Guppy, Mc30, Mc80. Using TRC on Nebs hurts them defensively. Changes:? -2 HWK +1 Jan, cheaper -Cuts to squdrons, TRC, 1 small ship for a Guppy

Ruthless on Raider isn't great because Ordnance is superior overall, you miss out dealing damage to evades squadrons potentially but two black dice with reroll is insane vs squads. The pocket carrier is pretty good for fighting squadrons with Expanded Hanger bay. It gives you a lot of reach/damage when you you can squadron command, shoot a target two different arcs, then a Impetuous an arc of choice. I tried the Pocket Carrier in a tourney and placed 3rd (23 person tourney). Bossk killed one off the command, Denegar softens another, double arcs and Impetuous. Killed 5 Tie mixed squadrons in one sitting. This thread is pretty confusing to me. What did people expect in a 44 point ship exactly? 44 for Imperial is worth it just for activations. It just so happens you are able to build it in many different ways. It's a great ship.

Yes scatter is fantastic, yeah her ability is great but Sontir/Mauler/Howlrunner is very weak vs ships. If you can't bomb MSU quick enough maybe having half of eight squadrons non Bombers is not optimal.

I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was you talking about your own list! I thought you were being sarastic or talking more generally about list building....So i'll take that back and give you a fully appology, a misunderstanding on my part. Now onto Howlrunner, Sontir, Dengar. Yeah I don't think it's great. Howlrunner gives +1 to only 2 of 7 squads(? if i remember correctly) and Dengar doesn't get his own counter so you don't get the buff twice. Sontirs ability is easily avoided because it's range one. It's all super expensive and Howlrunner/Sontir don't particularly help against ships. I honestly think x2 Aggressor would be stronger for the cost. They have more hull, don't need commands, can Rouge into Rhymer. Hmm. Leaving poor Dengar uncovered? Seems risky! Still, needs must. And, as you say, those Firesprays aren't awful at dogfighting. Yes. Position it at the rear and out of range of enemy squadrons. You only need to Intel when you are pinned so I don't leave him out the front initially. Besdies he won't get use from his own ability unless you add an Escort but that dilutes the pool of quality bombers.

@Dur. Correct. I initally ran 3 Firesprays, Rhymer, supporting heroes but as the final game/others showed if you don't bomb hard enough (running blue or black non-bomber battery dice OR weak bombers Xwings) you will loose. I now run 4FS/Bobba/Rhymer/Dengar. All Bomber dice bar one and it is Black. This will comfortably kill 1 Raider per Turn (in of itself, without Sqaudron command) and ruin a Glad because the attacks are spread out, meaning the defense tokens are highly ineffective. Especially one the 1 redirect a Glad has. As for non MSU lists with fighters/bombers of their own a Glad II/Demolisher/Ruthless Strategist, VSD Flight Controllers, Raider I, Dengar compliment the tankiness of the the FS nicely. I killed 5 full health Ties/Howlrunner in one activation with Demolisher putting 24 Blue Dice/Ruthless strat triggers/squadron command x3 on 6 Ties.

I fail to see how anyone is scratching their head. It is the same idea based around what GenCon special was, acitvations and a Demolisher. This isn't just list construction on paper, its a list that is currently undefeated with three top three in store tourneys in a row. Against everything from squadrons, to MSU/activation lists, Gladiators, pretty much anything (sure not Clon5 but i wouldn't be afeared to face it) because the same stratergy applies to every other MSU list post Wave 2. Kill their small ships with 5-6 rouges in squadron phase with Rhymer. If you want to see how much reach it has deploy a ship at 3, put your Firesprays at max 2. Then move Rhymer 3-4 and move your Fireprays as far as they can go. You will put 8-10 dice on a Small ship turn 1 if they move foward. Strawmen much. I fully acknolwedge the inefficencies in a Bomberball. There are ways to mitigate them. And how didn't I take into account a Gladiator? I run an indentical Gladiator in my Bomberball and I bid for first. The only difference is I have run APT. I know how dangerous a Gladiator is. I never stopped running it. Both posts are perfect example of the hyperbole and circlejerk. Somebody has a different opinion, better make up fallacious arguments or misquote because they can't possible have anything of value to say or experience to share. @Conscientious Objector. Thanks for breaking in and saying that i'm arguing in a 'ceterain way'. If you by that you mean doing nothing but get misqutoed I would agree. @ Dur, wow. You made the thread and asked for input. Spent all the time and effort making elaborte diagrams and facilitating discussion about how to beat a list, i suggest how and now i have to 'fly casual' (aka stop talking) because reasons. That's weak. I'm telling you the tactic that has destroyed every MSU list i've gone up against but your not considering it. Try it. It will work. MSU has no fighter superiority. Their game plan is to ingore them. But you can't actucally ingore 9 Blue Bomber, 2 Black Bomber per turn when 4 out of 5 ships only have brace and 2 shields...

Did anybody say it was 'good' or not inefficent. Nobody thinks that FS are great at anti squadron. But 6 Hull, Rouge, Flight Controllers, Hero ships are some of their advantages/ways to value add. 5 Ties + Howlrunner is a pretty common fighter screen, I face it pretty regularly. With the Hull, Rouge and a bit of help (Demolisher II, Flight Controllers, Dengar) they win this flight pretty easily/quickly and for not many losses. Not to mention any Escort ships Fireballs run. Rebels is a slightly different story but since they are slower you get way more out of Intel/Rouge/Rhymer.

There's a reason none of the 3-4 Firespray + Rhymer lists made it into that final. Sure they might (might) get the alpha strike on Demo, but they'll get torn up against anything with a decent fighter screen. What constitues a decent 'fighter screen'. 5 Firesprays, Dengar, Rhymer for 39 hull, Glad II, Flight Controllers, Raider should have no issues with any 'decent' fighter screen. Unless they overinvested in anti squadrons, which is probablly to their detriment. This Glad combo has always been known. There were two typical builds pre Wave 2. Non gen con. Glad I, ACM, Intel, Engine Techs, Demo. GenCon special VSD, Glad Demo ACM, Glad ACM, Glad, they GSSpecial did the same thing, 9 point bid, go first, more activcations, double activation demolisher, sound familiar? Prior games have shown lists like these reliably loose to bombers. Clon hardly faced a refined bomber. So why are we derailing the whole forum? Why is the notion that a list is "invincible" taken seriously? I love that Raiders got up. I love MSU Imps winning. I love a game rewarding a good player. But the circlejerk has gone on a little long now.

Ok this is really getting out of hand and has derailed the entire forum. 5 Bombers, preferablly Firesprays + Rhymer, you have 10 Blue on first turn squadron phase. MSU can't stand up to this regardless of first or second. The so called "bomber" list in the last game of Vassal wasn't. It sub optimal bombers at best with an extraordinarily inefficent combo of Sontir, Denagar, Howlrunner. Non of which could punish Raiders/Glads. Yes the Glad has range. This is know. Glads also failed to win Worlds to non bomber squadrons in a meta in which they were arguably more powerful (yes it was built different). It comes down to blocking the Glad, Bombing the Glad, trading an equivalent throwaway ship for the glad, not flying into Black dice range and using your longer range batteries as you force them to chase.

If you want to play lots or squadrons you get Flight Controllers. Other value cards include Motti, Intel Officer, Overload Pulse. Plus it's a good ship that has many uses.

Say whaaaaaaat ? Where the Pride shines isn't in throwing crits through shields alone. Because you choose to trigger the Crit after the defense tokens are spent, if the opponent doesn't spend any to defend against the Pride's double arc, you can completely deplete shield zones instead of triggering the crit, and you trigger it if the opponent spends the tokens. So he's found himself with a ship that has all tokens spent and 2 face up damage cards. For 45 points, that's a pretty cool support ship I find ! I found that while there are tricks regarding tokens etc...if you strip the shield (you can't win on Pride alone) punching through the full amount of damage is better. Especially with SW7 being an option for cheaper now. But maybe Wave 2 opens it up more? Better cost, Reeiken over 2 turns, we shall see.

Depends on the ship. If its Black Dice w/ Ordnance Experts, a Carrier w/ Boosted Comms, Raymus/Wulf/Ozzel/Tarkin you loose nothing. What kills speed 0 is trying to jump up speed one at a time. If you can increase speed by a minimum of 2 or 3 then you are not punished for stopping and starting. A somewhat niche use of speed 0 can be helpful in a situation where a ram will kill you. So 1 hull remaining. Sometimes it is better to force them to waste an activation to shoot you. Therefore you absord all the potential damage it could do to another ship in foregoing 1 damage dealt.

I find DPride useless. Not a great ability and heavy cost imo. XX9, Minefields, Asteroids, APT, bombers, low cost for Squadrons, a choice crit for a choice ship, all reasons to love Dodonna. As for Ozzel, since it came up, love him for largely the same reasons. Low cost gives me more stuff and his ability is fantastic for each Imp ship.

Dudes. Wave 1. Squadrons suck, they will never see play, they will always be bad. Squadrons win Worlds at Wave 1. Raiders Suck Thread. Clon stomps Vassal. A local meta thing (which im sure is true elsewhere) Post Wave 2. VSDs are dead, 9 VSDs in top 5 Newcastle (Australia, competitive store) Store Champs. People will say anything is bad if they can't figure out the use. Then when they get their faces stomped in by people running the thing they disregarded you will hear no end of i) i made mistakes ii) they rolled hot iii) the field was sucky, they got lucky To quote Taylor Swift, "And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Baby, I'm just gonna shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. I shake it off, I shake it off" I don't understand the attitdue. Clons win is a testament to the the supreme balance of the game and how much the game rewards skill over cheese.

You should probably watch the Vassal replay of Clon vs miedomeda[/size]Faction: Galactic Empire Points: 400/400 Commander: Admiral Ozzel Assault Objective: Precision Strike Defense Objective: Fleet Ambush Navigation Objective: Superior Positions [ flagship ] Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points) - Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points) - Gunnery Team ( 7 points) - Boosted Comms ( 4 points) - Leading Shots ( 4 points) Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points) - Demolisher ( 10 points) - Ordnance Experts ( 4 points) - Engine Techs ( 8 points) - Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points) Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points) - Ordnance Experts ( 4 points) - Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points) 1 Darth Vader ( 21 points) 1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points) 1 Dengar ( 20 points) 1 Boba Fett ( 26 points) 2 Firespray-31s ( 36 points) He pretty much went right into that fireball and blew up an ISD, GSD, and Raider before Demo died. No one is saying its invincible but as others have pointed out several times he beat several bomber heavy lists in the tournament, rhymerballs, fireballs, and bwings. I did not elaborate. This is not an answer to Firespays. It is ignoring them. That composition is not good at punishing MSU because it lacks mass rouge, the squadron phase dominance a how you even out activation advantage. Boba is no better than a regular FS because black will miss more. Not trying to take away from the win. I love it. A massive fork in the eye of pretty much everyone was saying about the meta and embarrassing to "Raider will never work".

Yes, give up Armarda forever /s I see the list doing zip vs Rhymer/4 Firesprays/Dengar/others. And if your carrier is running and not driving head on in Black dice what then? Nothing has range besides an exposed Demolisher. I hope people pick it up for the upcoming store champs. It's a hard list to play, one that is not obvious how to pilot if you netdeck.

Expanded Launchers Ordnance Experts Engine Techs Intel Officer It's a brute! Yeah been running OE, ET, IO but APT instead. The awnser is bomber but when they have 5 ships thats the counter-counter

Upgrades on Demolisher? They are talking about it a lot. Caught the game late!