I think this thread is a prime example of goalpost shifting and fallacious arguments. * Here are some suggestions and results about making it win > But that is " In Your" meta (an implied inferior meta). * Here is data showing wins > But what about losses? There was always a response that changed the premise. The best counter argument against "efficiency" was mostly not even addressed. If the rule about efficiency (efficiency is better) is true then VSD>ISD for play. Yet what do 99% of people suggest you take and what do most people take. The ISD. Failing anything new I think that's all i can say.

Whilst this isn't actually true maybe 1 or no other ship can say the same? Maybe we should run as many of those as possible and nothing else! /s

According to this data, it was the best choice approximately half of the time.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CFxsUmQgOTKOKQ8E5LOi1spviLkuJxtmxzhm7e23A40/edit#gid=594430368 In Sydney.In NSW (and Canberrra). A massive geographic region, easily the size of half a dozen US States. NSW has three solid hubs of play and various satellite groups. This is not one weird meta doing it's own thing.Efficiency is not the sole determining factor. Whats the total population? Size is not the sole determining factor. How many different people play and how often? how often do the regional metas mix, if at all? Im in Canada, we got big areas too, some even have a person or two in them.No its not the sole determining factor. So? Discounting it altogether because "joe smith runs a mean mc80" in no way changes the efficiency numbers. Hey, run all the MC80s you want! I'm sure it works out great! as they say around here "good luck with that" Compete strawman. I never said discount it entirely I said it is not the sole consideration.Regional metas mix bi monthly at Canberra, store 3D6. Any other region is an 8-12 hour drive. As for numbers can't say but for recorded attendance at events. Which comes to 52 unique persons over the last 10 tournments. Which is most of, but not all of, the tournments that were on over the last couple of months.

According to this data, it was the best choice approximately half of the time.https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CFxsUmQgOTKOKQ8E5LOi1spviLkuJxtmxzhm7e23A40/edit#gid=594430368 In Sydney.In NSW (and Canberrra). A massive geographic region, easily the size of several maybe half a dozen US States. NSW has three solid hubs of play and various satellite groups. This is not one weird meta doing it's own thing.Efficiency is not the sole determining factor.

This is why first is overrated. Don't get me wrong first is strong but second is punishing in a different way. The combination of point based objectives and threatening/countering aggression with trades is how to neuter the first player advatage. You're going to Demolisher one of my ships? I'll punish XYZ ship in return. I love building my lists to max points to go second with Glad. I loose the bid and because of the fear the triple tap Glad they make me second. Now you can pick Precision Strike, Fire Lanes or Superior Postions.

No.3/4, always wanted to try Thanks for the share!

Well if you read a few posts back you would have seen that I made the longest address in this thread to every issue raised by the OP but hey I'm throwing peanuts I guess! So much for quitting the game. I see you've taken on some new found bitterness as you insulted me several times for no good reason. And yes it was a nice visual illustration of 6 month old information, it took effort to make, obviously because they want to contribute and share knowledge about the game. But it doesn't change any understanding of the long established facts. It's just a nice way of showing it. Anybody can put two ships in isolation and show a weakness or a particular play one way or the other. It is good for illustration of a particular situation with no other factors at play. It's a joke that anybody could see that illustration and say "see it's terrible!" There is a massive difference between an illustration and actual game. This stinks of "Squadrons suck and will never be good", "Raiders are useless and will never be good". Now let the "Terribad MC80" join the ranks of popularly maligned 'things' that people are quietly stomping with.

Some people appreciate clear, visual illustrations. Some people haven't even been playing the game for 6 months. And for those that haven't it is appreciated. For those that have this is not new information.They have adapted. Instead of saying one particular move that an opponent can do trap one ship therefore I won't play, they countered it.

A fact know since the before the MC80 was released? Yawn...Welcome to 6 months ago. What have you done to adapt?

Disagree. In our play group of 8 or so we have had consistent 1st places with MC80 lists. Not to mention top 3. Two store champs wins with MC80 (one list x2 MC80), a recent x2 MC80 win in a small Winter Kit tourney, and buckets of wins in other events over the prior months. -REFER to Post No.66 for details of the prior statment- I don't fly Reb, I'm Imp, but i respect the **** out of the MC80 and what others have done with it. Rebuttal 1) It's Slow, maybe...but far more manouverable and not comparable to VSD in any way. 2) It's arcs are weak? 3) It's not Motti strong...but it's strong 4) MC80 players say...it's all about synergy That "sum total of difference" is huge. Without it, it would be garbage. The lack of Click on the VSD speed 2 is why most people think it is garbage. With 1 Yaw @ 1, 1 Yaw @ 2, with a Navigate command you can swing 90 degrees by adding in a click. This is a huge amount of manoeuvrability. Far superior to the VSD. Speaking of the VSD there is no comparison to be made. 1) It's Yaw is different. 2) It's Arcs are different. 3) It's base is different 4) Shields, slots, upgrades The MC80 will have a much easier time staying on target because of how generous the sidearcs are and the way it flys. The MC80 can slide sideways and stay on a good incepct course without Nav Commands. This gives it a lot of options to CF, Repair etc...The VSD if poistioned poorly will never get into the fight due to a) its bad Yaw b) its small base Without the Large Base it would not hit a lot of shots. It needs this for the reach. It's why comparing a Medium ship to a Large isn't the right comparision. Ramming is also predictable therefore just as easily counterplayed. Good MC80 players punish this. 1) Interlocking arcs with other ships. Simply put fly together and cover each other, focus the same target. This is never not a good plan because killing one ship quick is better than spreading out damage (generally) 2) Definance/Concentrate Fire, x2 Black, x2 Red, x1 Blue, Xi7 is punishing for small ships 2) It's arcs are weak? Anti-squadron is the true weakness, it is the best use for Gunnery Team, but MC80 but it is also the best equiped ship to tank bombers due to it's Defensive Slots/Natural Shields. Most have started running Assault Cruiser for AP. They start spamming Eningeeing/Raymus the turn they get by bombed. Since they want to use Definance they don't mind taking these hits. Then they a) go for the carrier b) use squadrons of their own to pin the squads Make a choice. Kill the Carrier or Fight the Squads. If they have 134 points of Squads then picking up that many points is just as good as killing a ship. Defiance procs off each shot so Double Tapping is very much worth it. It can actually be 4 dice better off than AF2A, MC80 players want to get this shot off. And you have a lot of options with the dice since all MC80s want Leading Shots getting rerolls on your Reds is great. Or just add Black/CF Black. Or add Black/Leading Shots blue. * I previously discussed the Close Range counter plan. You will vaporise ships in the side arc. The only way they can stay close is in the front. * Medium range is hard to get into without ET but then again a lot of MC80's opt out of trying because long Range is where they rule. They plink at approaching fast ships and go ham up close. But then again my MC80 players tell me they land medium shots consistently * Long Range is where it rules. Defiance a Blue Dice for Leading shots, Roll 7 Red. Most of the MC80 lists are running Assault Cruisers for reasons of Demolisher/Squadrons. Most are choosing Ackbar. 3) It's not Motti strong...but it's strong This is straightup wrong. Lets assume Intel Officer. A VSD has to use brace on the first Demo push. It redirects because it has to. Then it dies next turn. An MC80AS redirects the first barrage to the rear/front. In the next turn arc it can brace/redirect, then the next hit it redirects. Very much alive. This is the most spike damage that can be dealt out in the game. The AS is capable of surviving it. If the Demo has APT and not Expanded you will take massive damage for sure, but what Ship won't? All of these 'Paper Scenarios' assume the Demo is going to pull of a perfect attack 100% of the time, all of the time, without you doing anything about it. The MC80AS passes the Demo Triple Tap Test (as in it can survive it). Only a Motti ISD II can say the same. Against any other reasonable ship and not the all in Demo push you have garunteed Brace due to ECM. And you have the option of AP against bombers/black dice. Add in Raymus + Engeering for when you think you need it and you have a tanky ship. Redirecting shields with 4-6 Engineering is massive. 8 damage is pretty reasonable expectation from an ISD II. So you use your guaranteed Brace and don't Redirect due to Xi7. Then it's your turn you move 4 and Repair 1. It is perfectly survivable. All of these comparisons to the VSD are rubbish. 4: It's all about synergy! MC80 players say it's all about synergy. Here are some winning lists: * Garm/x2 MC80/some ship i forget, Store Champ * Reeikan/MC80 Command Cruiser (Home One)/MC30/Salvation, Keyan/Luke/Dutch/Wedge/heroes, Store Champ * Ackbar/x2 MC AS /Cr90, Winter Kit * Ackbar/MC80 AS, 4 CR90 It could be Home One on Ackbar and Defiance on the other both focusing one ship for 14 Xi7 dice. Or MC80 commanding Zombie Bombers with Home One procs on an Expanded Launcher MC30. Or Garms timed MC80 push to destroy a Carrier with 134 points of bombers or CR90 swarms whittling down ships whilst the MC80 runs distraction. The MC80 is a ship that lends itself to a synergistic fleet. It has some weak spots that only other units can support. Through Fleet Construction/Flying these issues are at worst negligible and at best bait. Your comparions on the MC80 stats, especially when compairing to the VSD are flat out wrong. -forgive me if they format is crap, this was way longer than i expected it to be-

It all depends on cost. * 32 points gives you 4 Ties which will be able to pin some squads and not much else. * 56 points gives you Howlrunner and 5 Ties. This is a pretty nasty combination. To get max advantage use Flight Controllers and Squadron Commands. This is a personal favortie cheap, anti fighter ball. * Interceptors/Howlrunner is more expensive but also more damaging * 3-4 Aggressors is expensive but resilient/damaging and requires no squadron commands. * Vader, Sontir, Punishing One, IG88, Mauler, expensive hero balls run into 70-100+ points. At this point you're playing squadrons.

But why will they? The problem with minefield setup in the way you describe is they are essentially a mirror. They have no incentive to come to you and they will use your minefield in the exact same way you will. Why will they play into what you want them to do? Depending on the prior rounds many players will opt for a draw.

Minefields...my personal least favorite objective for so many reasons.

Dissagree pretty much with every thing you said. * Glad II sees play where i am. We run lots of squadrons. 2 Blue, Demolisher, another 2 Blue is a really strong anti Squadron platform. * VSD I/VSD II still see tons of play. We had a x2 VSD I/Glad/Squadrons win a store champs agaisnt all the usual Wave 2 suspects. In another Champs there were 6 VSD in the top 5, with 1st running 2 and second 1 (no ISD for either list). People say "it's just carrier". Yeah its a carrier that can throw 5 Blue and 2 Black Bomber at Range 7. VSD IIs see play as complementary ships that intercept things. VSDs are hard to fly. A ill deployment can see them do nothing all game. * ISD I is fine. People use it as a carrier or bum rush activation list. * Raider II im not terribly impressed with. I don't recall people using it to much effect. I don't think it's great. Ion Cannon gimmicks never seem to do much.

I mean for what it's worth, that fleet got to table #1 by round 3 somehow (the games I'd seen it in earlier usually seemed to be bloodbaths in the middle of the table versus other fleets running primarily large and medium ships, a setup that three ISDs can handle pretty well). It definitely wasn't a great build versus a 5-activation fleet, though. I'd also note that I didn't only play my 5-activation fleet at Adepticon. I've been playing it or some close variant of it for months now. Demolisher is pretty great*. I'm not going to run around aggressively petitioning for an errata or creating click-bait I HAVE STRONG DEMOLISHER FEELINGS threads, but if/when some kind of errata (either direct or indirect) nerfs it a bit I'm also not going to be surprised. I can't think of any other title that warps the game quite so much and when used well it can be very discouraging to face, which creates a lot of complaints about it. * great enough that if you're running 1+ Gladiators and none of them are Demolisher, I feel pretty confident that your list would be better by finding 10 points to make one of them Demolisher regardless of how they're outfitted - I can't think of any other title for any other ship class that's such an auto-include. Edit: typo, making sentences clearer. I totally agree. There is no reason never to run Demolisher. You are worse off if you don't. It pretty much auto. I run it as second player. Warps the rules. But does it need an nerf? I don't think so. I can only go off my anecdotes but the amount that it is played compared to the amount that it wins suggests it doesn't need nerfing. Mind you more play Demolisher in X Imp lists compared to GenCon/Clon variations. When they get favorable matchups they can go ham... But I think like the oringal GenCon its achilles heel is matchups.

Demolisher is not OP nor in need of Errata. I'm not trying to sound abrasive to Snipa, you cleary outplayed players who won their games, but if the second list you played won their game with all of the questionable choices/builds you yourself pointed out is this a fair evaluation of the title. Triple ISD no squadrons? Is this list good for anything expect hoping to get lucky in their matchups? Anyways...My Imp Plan for Triple-Tap-Glad: 1) Rouge Squadrons/Kill Raiders 2) Objective Point Punishment 3) Deployment/Position to punish/don't fly fast 1) Rouge/Rhymer/Intel. Rhymer/x2 Firespray/Slave 1 is the bomber part of my ball. I could go x4 FS, drop Rhymer but i kept it because Rhymer because a) it lets you shoot early b) keeps you out of Raider point defense c) chases down fleeing Glads. Against the Clon5 (havn't played a Snipa GenCon) I aim to kill the Raiders. If you have 4 Ship Bombers killing 1 Raider neuters their activation advantage. Killing 2 puts you in front. I usally play 3 Ship/Full Bomber (maybe a mistake in this meta), but killing 2 Raiders isn't hard with Rouge Bombers supported by a ship. They will be in Range because Raiders need to be in the fight to assit the Demo/Glads otherwise you can put 3 ships on 1 Demo. But plently of people still lead the Demolisher. If it's the spearhead you can focus it. 2) Choose 3 "Points Only" objectives: Assault: Most Wanted/Advanced Gunnery. Most Wanted their Demolisher. A 139 point Demolisher is a bit less than your ISD/MC80, which if it is Assault Cruiser/ISD Motti it won't die to a Triple Tap (unless they flip lots of APT Struc damage). Gunnery can work in some builds where you name a support ship and not your best ship. Having a VSD with 12 front Dice support your ISD will punish anything that flys in close. Defense: Fire Lanes/Contested Outpost. Set these up and let them try to push you off them. Fly at speed 1. Get 40 (CP) or 90 (FL) point buffer by turn 2. Raiders/Glads are terrible at contended these. Navigation: Superior Poistions. Get an amazing counter Demolisher deployment, let them come to you and Bomber the rear arcs. Another point blowout. 3) Deployment is one of the most important considerations. Aim to have 6 deployments (effectively 7 as second player) so even with 5 Ships/x4 Ties I still get the final deployment. I put my most expensive Capital ship (aka:bait) well away from Demolisher so it has to a) fly through it's own fleet b) can't effectively flank me. I also fly a LOW speed. Speed 1 only. On turn 1, even 2, i might even go to 0 for a turn. Just to delay the Demo strike and give the bombers more time. Then in combat set up to punish other ships/bombers if Demo activates you kill other things/kill Demo after and aim to even out the score with Objectives if the Glad goes full ham.

There has been a small fall off at least in Australia for casual play. This is due to * 6 store champs in the Sydney/NSW region * Winter Kit Tournies * Practice days/practice nights * Upcoming Winter Kit tournies and Interstate Store Champs from Sydney over the next couple of weeks.... We are pretty burned out Really feeling Store Champ fatigue, this is probally true in the US? But hey **** it i'm leaving for another game after this post so whatever! I am swampped for games and appreciate the slow before regionals.

Floteeyas soooo good. Thoughts for Imp, based on only a few spoilers: - A ship Isard actually fits on - Tarkin, Tarkin, Tarkin. Proper cheap ships for Tarkin so you don't sacrifice activations and are not forced to run Raiders. Then Tarkin tokens for Repair Crews, Assault Cruiser carriers, Comms net passing. A lot of cool synergy and options. Using an ISD as a carrier sucks. Having usless non battery ships moving your bombers sounds awesome. - Cheaper activations for ISD/VSD lists. A Raider is still expensive when you play 85/110/120 base point ships. - BCCommand Tie Bombers/Rhymer ball...that consistency. The wiff potential on Black dice is the prime reason I run Firesprays I think it's insane some people feel so strongly anti Wave 3. Who the **** is in a hurry to spend hundreds of dollars on a new Wave? With minimal cost they have completely turned the game on it's head...Wave 3 as it stands has made way more impact than simply adding the choice of another Small/Med/Large ship.

Oh another Demolisher OP thread. I for one like this old* new paradigm. The hype will keep bump bids up higher and higher giving me more to work with. I personally love maxing out to 400 pts now that i now have a higher chance of going second than trying to bid for first and loosing. *This is nothing new. Has everyone forgot about the Gencon special, you know a Gladiator/Activation/Bidding list? Apparantly Awings without the aid of Boosted Comms were enough to beat it at Worlds. Wait...I mean...yeah Demolisher OP you better a) play it b) bid 50 points to be safe. And OP sorry a seriously terrible idea. Max Upgrade x3 Medium-Large Ships to 400 Points AND a Rhymer/Jan/Bomber Ball AND get rewarded with choosing first or second. No thanks.

Deploy your 2 Debris next to their first one, put your first in the middle so you can collect as you fly for the others. If they deploy the first one on their side of the board they might get to it first. But then you fleet/3 other debris is in front of them. If they deploy it the middle/your side of the board it's an easy pickup.

The most important consideration for second is Objectives. Build around those. Fleets designed to go second in a Demolisher meta want to maximise points. This will make up for the potential loss of a 150 point ship to a 90 point GladI. To this end OP DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. DO NOT RUN FLEET AMBUSH. Don't. No points AND it puts their ships/squadrons closer. Now i've got that out of the way! Let's look at them generally and in relation to your Demolisher meta. Assault Objectives: Advanced Gunnery: This will much MSU drill through Large Ships. Put it on a ship with Xi7. My current favorite is a Vic II because it's cheapish and hits hard. Most Wanted: Name their Demolisher. Now it's an easily killable ISD. Try to have a small/medium ship. Raider/Vic is perfect. Precision Strike: This is somewhat risky vs Glad swarms because they will flip faceup damage all day. But you can do the same and it is amazing with Firesprays/Slave I. This is another potential blowout objective but any enemy list build can mass up tokens to. Opening Salvo: Add to any amount of Red Dice 2 long range black dice with Opening Salvo, Concentrate Fire another Black dice and Screed them for Crit effects. But I don't like it as much because you can easily loose tons of points from ram damage. Defensive Objectives: Firelanes: Stack the three tokens on top of each other. You are allowed to do this. That way you can easily claim all 3 at once getting 45 points a turn. I usally pick Firelanes as an Objective to force people to pick my Assault/Navigation objective. Not many people will pick this after you get 12-18 tokens worth 15 each. One downside is that the final placement of Firelanes is less certain than Contested Outpost because player 1 can move them 1-2 spaces. But the reward is much higher. Also it will not work very well with your Glad list. You need long range batteries. Contested Outpost: A personal favorite. You get the choice of two Debris essentially. I find the 5in-5up corner and stick it there. On turn one i speed 2 my ISD behind it. You can sit on it for 6 turns. Come and get it. There is not much room to for them to flank. You also can run over it like Firelanes and it is much harder for them to contest it. Hyperspace Assault: The only non point Objective i would consider. Dropping a Demolisher/Firesprays behind their fleet is pretty good. It will probally get a garunteed kill if it does that. But you loose activations/deployment and they can avoid them. Fleet Ambush: Don't take this ever is my rule of thumb. I'm happy to play this as first player for so many reasons. Navigation Objectives: Superior Postions: The biggest point potential for Navigation but it requires building around with squadrons. Intel Sweep: A harder blue objective to play because the first player can steal your Objective Tokken. You can set this up for easy collection via the triangle method but it locks you in to flying a certain way. A much more uncertain objective. It can be the easist 75 points you get or hard fought. Dangerous Territory: If you have this in your Objective pool most people will pick if given hard choices. This can be good. Because you can easil clump 4 debris together to collect points and now all your ships take no Damage from debris. It's not to most fun or blowout Objective but it is consistent. Minefields: A horrible objective for points. If you deploy it certain ways many people will just take a draw rather than risking running the minefield. You end up walling them in and protecting them! Summery: *The higher potential points you can gain the less likey they are to choose an Objective *If they are all high point Objectives then they will be forced to pick one anyway! Put as much pontetial punishment on them *Practice 'playing to an Objective' maximise a point blowout stratergy, aim for the highest MoV possible *You can always have a "soft" Objective set against hard ones to make it more likey for them to pick it ie: Dangerous Territory vs Fire Lanes & Precison Strike, go on to think/play it in an effecicent way and you will end up with a suprising amount of points

Bid creep is getting pretty crazy. Now the problem with bidding is that in order to win it consistently even low bid metas have 15 as the standard. 20-25 is now the high bid. Will Worlds see bids of 30-30+? I think so. I used to bid with Squadrons because alpha striking the **** out of theirs/ships first is strong. But now giving up 15 points minimum is a Mauler Mithrel value squadron dropped AND there is not a sure fire chance of winning the bid anyway. It's a lot of potential power to loose. Changing to a more defensive composition using combinations of Sontir/Interceptor/Punishing One is a good way to punish the alpha strike. Bidding is important for a list that wants to go first because cheap/weak activation ships are not good as second player ie: Raider. So much so that bid creep will surely continue to rise. I'm not going to bother with this proposition. Going second is tricker to set up punishment because you have to engage two of their ships OR engage one of theirs with two but no less effective=. You need to set up two bad choices for the first player. They will want to alpha strike something of yours but if you position yourself to alpha strike a ship in return they have to activate in a certain order and it creates a trade. I plan to punish high bids by building around point based Objectives. All Assault Objectives, Fire Lanes/Contested Outpost, Dangerous Territory/Superior Positions/Intel Sweep. You should aim to collect 75 points minimum off each one. The terror of this forum, the Gladaitor vs your 150+ point ISD/MC80. But loosing 92 points on a Gladiator + 75 points from Objectives puts you on even losses. The Gladiator is not a cheap ship.

I only have eyes for Tarkin. I would happily field 2 Carriers instead of 1 Raider to make Tarkin playable with 4 activations. Not concerned about spam. 1 shield, 3 hull. One gunnery team = two dead ships. You can't have 6 not ships and 1 Demolisher. As for Rebels they (1 confirmed) lacks a side battery. I doubt the second would have a battery.

Leading Shots + Xi7 + Wulf

Half a dozen? 1/4 fleet flotilla? Right now based on very little info I see x2, to replace the one Raider I run for an activation, as the number I would consider. Extra activation for the same cost and fleet wide upgrades? Yes please. It's a better Cr90 B if you just want the activations/buffs.