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Everything posted by tunewalker

  1. I have yet to use canon characters or even Canon PLANETS in my games. My players have enjoyed it pretty well so far, Canon creatures, alien species and ships exist all over the place and the themes of Rebels vs Empire are still intact but keeping it away from canon allows me and my players to still FEEL like all of this could be canon happening off screen in unknown parts of the galaxy. However, given the level of notoriety my players are getting and the level of XP they are getting I am beginning to think about going ahead and letting them see a couple of known characters. I dont expect it to be any more than small cameo's to make it work similar (luke, Han and Leia are likely to stay out of it entirely). I am even thinking of throwing Vader in there with his procession as a one off thing if and when they get the attention of and kill an inquisitor.
  2. Just adding one more thing about the auto fire/ whirlwind ability. In the case of minions it can actually hit multiple minion GROUPS. So it would be the equivalent as others have put it of the action hero mowing down multiple groups of enemies with just one spray of his machine gun. But ya minions are easily dispatched, a combat check is any number of attacks, and autofire just allows that number of attacks to increase so substantially that the weapon can deal it's damage multiple times over. A big bad getting hit with a standard rifle will do something like 10 damage and he may take a crit as you blow a shot through his leg, but he gets behind cover pulls out a medpac and patches himself up in the middle of combat with some gaus real quick and is back to the fight injured and limping but still fine, while you successfully manage to hit that same guy with a machine gun and the autofire he just took double or even triple the damage and that fight is over. In the case of minions you have a hand gun and you take down 1 or 2 minions in one group while another group of bodyguard are starting to around and reinforce them forcing you to use cover. While the guy with the machine gun takes out a full 2 groups spraying bullets across 6 guys.
  3. You also have to remember what they knew at this point. They sent Obi-wan to figure out who was trying to assassinate a Senator of the republic and in doing so found out that the leader of a group of political idealists (dooku) was actually behind the assassination attempts and was planning a cue. The next thing they know Obi-wan is getting captured, the Senate is voting the chancelor emergency powers to authorize the usage of a clone army and it is on them to try to end a war before it begins. Remember that Yoda does not consider geonosis a victory and does not consider what happened there to be "according to plan".
  4. I think this is not bad, but I worry that it is a little high on the force rating and adversary rating since maul only has 4 and 3 respectively. Though this is probably actually perfect for a pre-clone wars game now that I think about it since FR and Adversary are both kind of relative to the story. Personally I would also lower the Move power from Sil 4 to Sil 2. and change sense to long, and maybe drop influence down to 3 rounds and 15 mins. Nobodies fool probably down to 2, since even highly skilled senators seem to have ranks around that level. Edit: that said thank you I will definitely use this with the alterations i mentioned for any game of that era I want to GM.
  5. Adding to my own thing from 2 pages ago. Yoda states "once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. CONSUME you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice." You do not need the characters to specifically state "you have to kill darth vader" for them to be understood that it is what they are telling luke to do. If you read between the lines and take the overall meaning of every scene it is made clear that Yoda and Obi believe Vader beyond redemption. That is what makes Luke a legend, that is what makes his actions in RotJ so meaningful because while everyone told him to kill a unredeemable man he saw redemption for him and saved someone that was thought to be unsaveable.
  6. Ya it is, Yoda had no intention of telling Luke that Vader was his father. "unexpected this is, and unfortunate". He intended Luke to face Vader believing vader killed his father and his mentor. Obi-wan and Luke's conversation is straight "You cannot escape your destiny you must face darth vader again" Luke:" I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" Ben: "then the emperor has already one" which CLARIFIES for the audience that when they say "confront" they mean kill. If he wasn't meaning kill from the start he could have just told Luke "turn him back if you can, but you can't take killing off the list of solutions, if you do you will surely die" but he doesnt say that. Obi says confront, Luke says I can't kill and Obi goes well then I guess we are screwed. Neither him or Yoda intended to tell Luke the truth which means they never even had the thought to give the possibility of redemption of Vader to Luke. If they had intended the possibility of redeeming Vader they would not have purposefully kept Vader's true identity from Luke. They would have given some form of hope of redemption and they wouldnt have actively created a conflict between Luke and Vader by telling him Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. The entire time before the quote I have above is Obi-wan justifying why Vader is not Anakin, and how Anakin is already dead and Vader is not even a man worth considering "He is more machine now than man, TWISTED and EVIL.". "your father was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin skywalker and became darth vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, From a certain point of view." Then Ben goes into talking about how good Anakin used to be to which Luke responds " There IS still good in him I felt it" to which Obi-wan responds with the quote about him being twisted and evil again arguing against Luke that there is any possibility at redemption. First he says the good man was DESTROYED and then when Luke argues that the good man is still in their somewhere Obi insists that he is more machine and twisted and evil not believing Luke's assessment of the situation. To which Luke argues "I cant do it ben" and then the quote I gave earlier plays out exactly as it states showing that Luke's FIRST "I cant do it" was talking about killing his father, and again clarifying for all of us what is going on. Obi-wan believes Luke's father is already been destroyed and that a twisted and evil man is all that remains, Luke is arguing that a good man still remains in him and Obi-wan insists that is not the case, Luke then stops arguing the point and simply says he cant kill his dad and Obi-wan basically says "well then we are screwed".
  7. I feel like that is stretching. You have to remember who the writers of these characters are. They aren't martial artist or shooting instructors they are movie makers making it for general audiences. Given that it is still pretty obvious that Yoda and Obi intended Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, heck from obi-wan's perspective Anakin was already dead and Vader was "more machine than man" so from Obi's perspective Vader wasn't even a person.
  8. Also just to make sure that Luke wasn't just misunderstanding.... Luke did say "I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" and Obi-wan's response is literally throwing up his hands a little and saying "then the emperor has already won". No room for confusion or misunderstanding what so ever. Obi-wan and Yoda both intend Luke to kill vader.
  9. I also think there is a note to a GM in the book that the actual fall should be roll played in a significant way. Like if you know your player is getting close to it, make the act that does it really tick. Also The whole using JUST Dark side pips to fall to the dark side and being a perfect angel otherwise is possible on paper, but not really practical in practice. Since you are Rolling a D10 after every session against your conflict you are rolling 5.5 on average and thus need to be generating on average 6 conflict a session for 40 sessions to fall from 50 to 30. To do this with ONLY dark side pips with an FR of 2 would cause you to also take 6 strain a session and likely flip on average of 3 destiny points a session just to do this. This also means a usage of at least 3 to 4 force powers a session and given the setting the base game takes place in that much Force Power usage would bring A LOT of unwanted attention. As far as the things on the list of 9.2 there are all kinds of things on that list that I know even players playing morally good characters will depending on the circumstances. Like turning a blind eye to cruelty to avoid getting in trouble with the empire. Lying for personal gain. Theft is very common if the players have joined the rebellion, they steal from the empire all the time yes it is mitigated a little because of this, but it is still conflict. Torture is one of those slippery slopes that an evil person can REALLY EASILY justify. Like an assassin is trying to kill a high level government official and the players catch him and he is not talking. The players need to know who hired him so they can take this bounty off the officials head.... torture sounds very reasonable to any evil player even coercion and threatening with violence sounds reasonable to most good players, and what do they do once they have that answer. Again for an evil darkside player the answer is simple we kill them (Murder 10+ Conflict), heck for most players I have played with that is the answer but the system would force them to try and talk to this person and get them to back off another way besides just murder. (also I love the fact that the system does that because it allows me to have more evil megalomaniac characters that order minions to do everything for them but are basically untouchable that need to be talked down).
  10. Defense is a very broad term. In defense of friends, self-defense, In defense of ideals, In defense of Republic. As long as the jedi isn't initiating the conflict it is fine. I think this falls squarely under "taking yoda's words to literally". Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, that is what Form V is born off of, and Form V is still a JEDI form, and it shows the philosophy of those that use the force offensively (note I say offensively instead of to attack, because they aren't really attacking as much as they are disabling a threat and in doing so defending those that can not defend themselves from said threat.)
  11. I wish I could hit thank you multiple times you are 100% right, and that would be the same with the hole and the like on Ach-too. Perfect, yes.
  12. Good to know I would like to know the source though for my personal benefit, also is there one saying Palpatine himself is a Dark Side nexus (I know Mortis is a Force nexus so I knew Force nexus's still existed) Finally I am going to table my rants on Vader vs Luke real quick and just ask 1 question of @infinityincarnate. Who do you think is stronger, Old Man Ben Kenobi from Episode IV or Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight from Episode VI.
  13. But this again ignores the context of the quote, the context of your own quote, and the history of the character. It is a leap to think lucas is referring to potential power rather than achieved power as Palpatine has not had a history of carrying solely about potential power, if he did he would have turned anakin much sooner not just when he finally surpassed dooku. Palpatine believes in testing potential power, and either the person lives up to their potential or doesnt. Given the context it does not appear to be referring to potential power. Actually you did ignore it, by not conceding a point you are ignoring the point, in addition I brought it up 2 whole quotes back and you addressed none of it then and instead continued to use it to try and support your flimsy argument. Live up to your mistakes man, you were the one that brought it up, then ignored it's non-canon nature the first time it was brought up and then when I tore the argument apart a second time you ignored it completely instead of owning your mistake. Yes you did again, you are continually stating how vader holds back, which is NULL AND VOID at the times Luke is Holding back as they are both on even footing in those moments. Even in the moments when Luke ISNT going all out and is also holding back he holds the advantage and is able to do as he pleases disengaging when ever he feels like. You are correct, he does go all out on a occasion, but unfortunately for you I am not always referring to those moments and Luke is still holding the advantage. So yes you are ignoring this fact. Finally stop cherry picking please, you are cherry picking the quote the full quote is here. " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons." This statement shows you are still ignoring that fact, and still ignoring the context, which I will get more into in a bit. Yes you did ignore that fact, and by this quote are still ignoring that fact, as there is nothing those statements is contradicting. They WERE the canon, that is the point, at the time while Lucas was apart of Lucasfilm they were the facts. Now that Lucas is NO LONGER part of Lucasfilm neither Lucas NOR they are the facts. That is what you are ignoring and continuing to ignore. You are correct it does not change who lucas has said was more powerful, because he has said Luke was more powerful as of 6, based on what we see in the movies, and based on the quote provided, lucas has never made a hard distinction between potential and achieved. Your view point does not match Lucas's it matches what Lucas believes the viewpoint of kids talking to psychiatrists believe. Context is king. The quote about the emperor wanting Luke is in direct reference to episode 6, while the quote you are using is in direct reference to the view point of young children who need help from psychologists, it is what lucas believes the children see not what author intent actually is. Referencing back to the full quote " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons." How does the emperor think Luke is going to kill vader 1v1 if he doesnt think Luke is stronger? What would lead palpatine to believe Luke is a better apprentice if he wasnt stronger than vader? And once again the end thing refers to the mirror system once again which is supported by star wars database, which is run by CURRENT Lucasfilm which is not tied to nor does it answer to nor does lucas have anything to do with. Current Lucasfilm is not beholden to Lucas's word, old or new. So if you want to use Lucas word, you would need to allow OLD Lucasfilm canon which brings Insider 62, Fact file 111 and RotJ book back into it. Even if you don't you are cherry picking Lucas's quotes and ignoring context, and say it with me.... context is king. Context tells you the FULL story. In the case of your quote the context is in reference to the view point of children viewing all of the movies and in nearly all of them Luke is mostly incompetent and needs to be rescued multiple times of course the kids are going to view vader as powerful and luke as not because Luke is the underdog story until the very end, and even when he finally wins Palpatine is just there to show him that he STILL isn't top dog that is definitely NOT a power fantasy, while from the viewpoint of the kid vader only loses ONCE (heck even when he does lose he still is the one to save Luke and kill palpatine in the end, he dies for it but heroic sacrifices endures a character more instead of detracting from them) and other than that one time he is the master of all other situations, he is a power fantasy, he is the obstacle to overcome, but that is the FEELING the saga gives off not the context for the final fight and not truly relevant to the argument you are trying to use it for. While my quote is referencing VI specifically and the FULL quote does not make sense to be solely referencing Luke's potential because otherwise the emperor would not believe luke could kill vader nor that luke would be a Better apprentice, this is not based on feelings of a child or the assumed feelings of a child but the actual mechanical facts of the scene in question. This quote, this FULL quote was lucas's view point on Luke vs Vader in Episode VI, this FULL quote was the author intent, yours was simply his assumption on how kids viewed the characters on the whole from the whole series and has 0 to do with how things land in the end. Lucas 's view point on Luke vs Vader IN VI, is Luke is strong enough to kill vader, is a better apprentice and has greater potential, all BECAUSE Vader is "more machine now than man". But the reason Lucas gives for the fact doesnt change the fact.
  14. You ignored the other lucas quote that contradicted the quote you made. You also just ignored the fact that Dark side nexuses dont exist. You also ignored the fact that Luke is holding back just like Vader is. You also failed to provide any evidence for said dark nexus or your claim that Vader wasnt using it. You also ignored the fact that the list you gave of "what is canon" from Lucasfilm is not Lucas's list but disneys list and Lucas wasnt listed as part of that list so if you want to get that technical with it neither of our quotes from lucas work anyway, which I then refer you back to the post that has the fight, the talk about the mirror thing and you are once again down to 0 sources. You also ignored the fact that your quote is referring to Vader during the entire trilogy and not episode 6 and since Vader is more powerful in 5/6ths of the movie is true... from a certain point of view that also has nothing to do with what I am talking about. You also ignored the fact that my quote IS specifically talking about episode 6. You also ignored the fact during Lucas's time the sources I linked were considered evidence and canon so if we want to include lucas quotes we include those as well. You also failed to provide any proof that you dont mind sometimes being wrong as you have yet to be ok with it during any discussion on these forums at any point in time. Edit: I think this is how I am going to handle arguments in the future, everytime a point is made that someone ignores or a piece of evidence is stated without actual back up I am just going to bring it up so the person knows. So they can go back to addressing each of these points, because i am tired of repeating myself. This way at least when I repeat myself it will be obvious. Edit 2: Am I allowed to laugh a little that the quote is really Lucas's interpretation as to why kids like vader, and has more to do with how he believes kids view vader THROUGHOUT the trilogy then it has to do with the intended difference between Luke and vader in the last fight of the last movie.... Context.... king. Seriously, the quote about why emperor wants Luke and saying Luke is stronger is an answer to the specific question about Luke vs Vader in episode VI in universe, while the quote that states Vader > Luke is from the perspective of what he believes little kids see and has nothing to do with the actual intent of the movies or the scenes..
  15. Quotes from the OT dvd commentary" The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."George Lucas As far a the dark side nexus that does not help your case. First that is non-canon now. Second Vader and Dooku are both Dark Siders, which means they draw on the dark. And Third Luke is not drawing on the dark side the entire time and still holds the advantage when he is just using the light... at a dark side nexus... where he would be weaker and his opponent would be stronger... yet still winning while holding back... by definition Luke would have to be way stronger... but again you will only believe a mountain of evidence so I will keep digging and dropping it on you. Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and you're wrong again. You also have to remember the context of YOUR OWN quote in which he is talking about the saga as a whole, and Luke is weaker than vader in all but 1 movie. Context is king. I don't like doing personal attacks, but when I spend an hour + digging up information, typing it up and then someone just chucks it out the window cus "lawls none of that counts" even though it is all official sources I cant do anything but treat that person like an idiot. You originally did not provide your quote or it's source you just said well this exists and I was supposed to take your word for it while I am providing fricken page numbers, scans and direct quotes with sources to back them up as well as the name of these sources and as far as I can tell you are pulling stuff from your butt and calling it gold. Now you have brought an Actual quote, actual evidence and to counter it we know that lucas goes back and forth on things all the time I got a quote that supports Luke being stronger, and there is a quote that states ACCORDING TO LUCAS... the source book stuff you want to ignore is canon material. So that puts 4 sources to 1. Again, putting us back to square 1. Luke and vader were at least equals. Edit: please remember to keep legends out of canon discussions. Things like Dark Side nexuses and the like don't exist. Palpatine is only there to edge them on, not to amp them, the amp thing never made any sense anyway because he would actually be amping his current apprentice at the start and weakening the one he wants and putting them on EVEN footing at the end. Also want to note Lucas isn't in charge any more and as you said the Data base is part of canon, and backed by the other things I said it is evidence that Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku and in Episode III Anakin> dooku.
  16. I do not think you are understanding the implication of their JOURNEYS being Mirrored. So let me break it down for you just a little bit so you can catch up. Dooku is to Anakin as Vader is to Luke. Dooku kicks the crap out of Anakin in Episode II and Anakin loses an Arm. Vader kicks the Crap out of Luke in Episode 5 and Luke loses an arm. In episode III palpatine plots to replace Dooku with Anakin who is 'far younger and more powerful' and Anakin defeats dooku cutting his arms off and then takes it 1 step to far and kills dooku. In episode VI Palpatine plots to replace Vader with Luke who is "far younger and more powerful' and Luke defeats Vader cutting his arm off and unlike his father doesnt take it a step to far. This is the mirror this is what happens. It is not mirrored because Luke and Vader are the same it is mirrored because Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku. The mirror implies that Vader is the Dooku of Luke's story, and just like with Dooku that would require Luke to surpass his father. It makes 0 sense for Palpatine to want a weaker apprentice. I mean just answer that question dont dodge it.... Why would Palpatine want a weaker apprentice, what evidence do you have to support Palpatine has always wanted a weak apprentice.
  17. Please give the EXACT quote that has Lucas saying what you are claiming. The only quote I can find of Lucas is this one: “Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the dark side." Also Lucas NEVER refered to EU stuff because he didnt care about it. ALSO ALSO everything you are talking about "later" with Luke doesnt exist. Also you admit to these things being licensed. .. who ever hold the license make the canon, but of course your going to ignore these facts to and provide less evidence. Because you like to claim there is all this evidence without actually providing any of it, and every time you move the goal posts like any flat earther or anti-vaxxer moron would I provide you with the evidence you ask for and then you move the goal post again. If your that dumb you are not worth talking to. Edit: for reference I am checking this page as of right now https://boards.theforce.net/threads/lucas-quotes-and-interviews-about-the-starwars-saga.15943856/ when I find something I will post it. Edit 2: Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and your wrong again, but wait there is more.
  18. Note I am not saying it is "Proof" I am saying it is Evidence as opposed to there being no evidence. Proof and evidence are not one and the same. He claimed no evidence to support the given book stats, I said there was and used these things as pieces of evidence. Proof is not the burden I was given nor the burden I was going for, simply showing evidence that the already known stats in AA are in-fact reasonable for what Luke is shown doing pre and at Dagobah. Which means for the burden I was given I simply needed to give 1 interpretation of a scene or pair of scenes given the Rules lawyer perspective to show how there IS evidence to SUGGEST that his stat block isn't over done. In addition, remember that this thread in particular is asking about a mechanical change to a given system, meaning doing things mechanically is what I am arguing not doing things narratively. You can do anything you want narratively, but that is not evidence that the characters stats are over blown from a mechanical stand point. Edit: for an example of course it would be like claiming "there is no evidence that the sky is orange' and then I take a picture of the sky as the sun is setting when it is orange and go BOOM evidence. This isn't proof but is sure as **** is evidence. (This could also work for the sky is blue, purple, grey or black)
  19. I also make a note that it doesnt make the character behave differently in other situations all the time. Just because you have a Morality of 55 vs morality of 65 doesnt mean that your character now has to be 10 "decibels" more dooche you can still behave as you think your character would in most situations, it is just the morality will reflect those actions. Your character not thinking anything is wrong with what they are doing means they wont change their behavior, that doesnt mean their behavior isn't morally wrong. That is the spiral to the dark side that allows a character to justify more and more things. Other than that actually I really want to try to implement this more in my own characters Role Play. I have done so a couple times like my character got taken into an interogation room and I failed my cool check, BAD fail + despair + disadvantage. So I acted out my character breaking into tears in the interogation room begging for leniency and spilling EVERYTHING all while sobbing like a hot mess. I didn't WANT my character to feel this way, but I knew as stoic and "do it all myself" as he can be, this is what he would be like given the roll and the situation. Once over and everything was said and done he did calm down and plays it off like nothing happened, but everyone knows and sometimes we all laugh about it much to my characters chagrin.
  20. While this can be true, I am specifically responding to the idea that there is "0 evidence that Luke has force rating higher then 2 or 3 as NOTHING he does in the movie requires this" this is inherently false from a "rules lawyer" gm perspective. Also remember that when he was doing the handstand with the 1 rock he is also actually only using 1 hand, AND he is still balancing Yoda on one foot as well, it is possible he is keeping yoda up there with TK at the same time. To do this from a rules lawyer perspective he would still need to likely commit the 1 die and there is always the possibility he rolls Dark which he can't use without being scolded by Yoda. Since he does this in more than one scene (hand stand plus at least 1 rock float, one with 1 hand stand and support yoda, the other with 2 hand stand more stuff float and vision) that is enough to establish "reliability" in a movie setting and in both scenes he starts out good without being scolded by yoda implying that he generates enough LIGHT FP with enough reliability with his remaining force rating to not have to dip into the dark side and get scolded all the while likely having his FR reduced by at least 1 due to force dice commitment as the hand stand stuff is specifically part of his FORCE training, if he didnt need the force to do it, wouldnt make much sense for him to do it that way instead of just sitting cross legged in the swamp. As yoda says "a jedi's strength flows from the force".
  21. sorry skimmed the book didnt see the move power, but still basic move power, no upgrades means he cant lift multiple objects like we see at dagobah, must be hoth version of the character they are trying to depict. Edit: I am going to go back to my main point I was trying to make, Luke's failing to lift the X-wing can be interpreted in this game as not the lack of Force pip generation but instead a failure on his discipline check. In fact the X-wing slightly lifting before sinking further is evidence that he actually DID roll enough force pips to get enough power to move the X-wing, but his mind got in the way and with a despair rolled (or maybe just enough threat) in addition to his failure he caused the ship to sink further into the muck. Also with 1 rank in magnitude.... he would require AT LEAST 3 force rating to lift 2 rocks + R2 + have a die committed to his brawn to allow the hand stand, possibly also balancing yoda, all the while not using the dark side and doing so with some form of reliability. He floats this many things multiple times and during one he loses balance when R2 wails due to the ship (added set backs broke his back) the other time he decides to use the foresee power at the same time and succeeds with that as well, before collapsing because the vision he sees. FR 3 is pretty bare minimum for the reliability we see from Luke.
  22. If you are going to ignore all version of the events of RotJ, the movie, the novel and the graphic novel all showing and saying the same thing, even with me quoting you passages from all of them for your own fan interpretation then you are an idiot that is not worth talking to. To top it all off, you are also ignoring all OFFICIAL interpretations of the events for WEG non-canon and compeletely irrelevant stats. Sorry but it is not worth arguing with someone so stubborn or stupid. Edit: sorry for everyone who read this before the edit. I just can't stand people who ignore all evidence and all official sources without providing any of their own. There are only 2 reasons to do so, maliciousness or ignorance and stupidity. If someone found any official sources that stated I was wrong I would go with it, but every official source I find backs my understanding of what I saw on screen, and everyone arguing with me keeps wanting to use N-canon material as proof of what they say is some how more accurate then every official depiction of the events. Edit 2: you know what I now need to laugh a little, did anyone else notice how his "evidence" was West end games character stat block only looking at the alter side of the force powers which has very little to NOTHING to do with how FR is used in this game nor does it have anything to do with how the characters are actually depicted in RotJ. Meanwhile I used, the RotJ Novel, Graphic Novel, Insider 62 and OFFICIAL fact file 111 all proving him wrong, and instead of admitting he was wrong he instead said "well none of that counts" eliminating his own evidence.... so now for evidence that Luke and Vader are equals in RotJ. Luke holds the advantage the entire fight, when he wants to attack he over comes vader's defenses, when he doesnt want to fight he successfully defends and retreats. Can't use the excuse that Vader is holding back because Luke is his son anymore because Luke is also holding back because he knows Vader is his father. So there are no more excuses left. Luke is Vader's equal in this moment, proof is the original scene. Supporting evidence. "soon I will have a new apprentice one far younger and more powerful" Sidious Episode III revenge of the sith. "Their journeys mirror each other in fascinating ways that makes one wonder how carefully their fates were designed by the Force, if at all." Source- Star wars Databank, which was one of the OFFICIAL sources put forth as being allowed. So using Episode II and III mirror against V and VI which the official databank specifically states their journeys mirror with the difference being and I quote "But he stops. Something Anakin could never do. He discards his lightsaber." Showing that the difference isn't in how Anakin beat dooku vs how Luke beat Vader but instead the difference is the choice they make AFTER that comes down. Anakin beat Dooku because he was "far younger and more powerful". Luke beat Vader because he was "far younger and more powerful". Evidence is the original scene, supporting evidence includes Star Wars Databank (official source we were told to recognize) combined with Episode II and episode III also official canon source. You have 0 evidence suggesting otherwise. There you go, you want to use old canon sources... I got you beat because there are stronger more official sources stating they are equal then there are ones that state that they are not, if you want to use new canon sources again I have you beat because the new canon supports them as equals if not Luke better as well but this time there is 0 supporting evidence in current canon that suggests Vader was stronger.
  23. According to the FFG Allies and Adversaries book he is FR 3 at START of Episode 5 at the battle of hoth before he goes to train with yoda. Leia if Force Rating 1 in ANH and she doesnt even realize she has the force. FR 1 is not an initiate level it is someone with force sensitivity that can barely even feel the force let alone have any training in it. According to RotJ novel, RotJ movie, Lucas himself and Fightsaber Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ, with Luke having the potential to become stronger. Reconcile those FACTS and we can continue conversation. Until then you are wrong. Sorry, that is also a fact. Edit: Fightsaber Inside 62, RotJ movie, Rotj novel all have and show Luke as equal to Vader in saber skill. In other words any canon source. You just have to watch the movies. You might want to try doing that. I mean I literally just quoted the book at you... and fight saber these arent my words they are canon quotes. Edit 2: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-5397085 Read the blirbs. just one more piece of evidence. " Darth Vader brings his full strength against the younger man." "but unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon freezing chamber of bespin's cloud city... this is a duel of EQUALS." "The young jedi had grown in the interim and if there is any TRUE advantage, it seems to have shifted to HIM" Edit 3:" The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match, and, once again, the Sith Lord found his thoughts straying to an alliance between them against the Emperor. Luke had indeed grown powerful since Bespin, and he was an equal match for his father." - The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 Again FR's are meant to show "tiers of power" to be an equal match as stated by Official star wars Fact file number 111. He would have to have equal FR in this system. I really can't get any more straight forward than this. The allies and adversaries book has Hoth Luke officially at FR 3... and according to the Official star war fact files Luke and Vader are equals as of RotJ.... you cant get any more official or accurate or factual than that, the argument is over.
  24. And WEG goes off a lot of non-canon legends stuff as of now, It is irrelevant and it's system is very wonky and much stranger in how they uses the force and feels much more inaccurate especially when it comes to the narrative relative strength of characters as it is more worried about raw numbers than what the narrative is telling us. Ultimately it doesnt matter and it doesnt reflect what we actually see. FR 3 is the given stat as of Hoth, not bespin. The photo is of Luke on hoth, the gear he has is what he has when he is on hoth. It is Hoth Luke not cave Luke. You admit Luke gets stronger from training with yoda, thus we know he grew at least 1 force rating from hoth to bespin. Given hoth is 3, bespin MUST be 4. As of Return of the Jedi the movie spends the entire first act emphasising just how much of a bad *** Luke is now by comparison to what he was in episode 5 and how he is much stronger in the force. To me this conveys the fact that he grew 2 FR in that time. Top it off you have done nothing to talk about the quotes from the novel that show Luke being just as strong as vader, nor talking about how the novel shows vader being afraid and angry and starting to push all the while luke loses his focus and goes on the defensive and still holds his ground. Vader ISNT trying to be on the defensive in Episode VI, Vader is 100% on the offensive trying to force his son to fight to show him how strong the dark side is and he fails every single time tries to physically force Luke to fight, because Vader is not strong enough to force the conflict and Luke is strong enough to force a stale mate/ retreat. Finally I urge you to look at the Shien Expert tree and look at all the skills in it and compare it to the other trees. The only skill that is in just Shien expert (form V) is Disruptive strike which requires you to roll a number of force dice equal to your FR if Luke could not roll as many Force dice as vader he could not be Vader's equal in this form. This is also shown all over the place in star wars, to be relatively equal with a blade you have to be relatively equal with the force and that relative equality is represented by FR. FR is tiers not exact measurements. Luke and Vader are in the same Tier as of VI. Edit: I mean to me WEG is about as accurate and fair a representation of the 2 characters as my board of star wars Stratego.... which has Luke and Vader as the second in commands and equals while yoda and the emperor are the main commanders and equals.... Edit 2: WEG is going off non-canon abilities and assumes vader got weaker from IV to VI. This is false assumption created by to many comic book writers over doing the force powers to try and keep up with all the ridiculous stuff they were doing after RotJ and during the "old republic". Remember that the old EU got insane with force powers as magic and that is what WEG is going off of. Also remember that even Lucas states Luke is stronger and that is why the emperor wants him in interviews. For the 1 piece of non-canon evidence that suggests that Luke and Vader arent equals there are 3 canon materials that says they are. I am going to go by canon, and not now non-canon legends material :).
  25. Sorry, I was stacking evidence. This was relating to him being his equal in the force, but also more a mirror and equal of his father in nearly every regard. In fact we can see in most of the movies that Force power and skill with a lightsaber go very much hand-in-hand. Obi and Vader are considered equals in the force and they are shown to be equals with the blade as well. Yoda and Palpatine have equal FR and they can duel each other pretty evenly. Maul gets destroyed by Obi in their final duel at a time when Maul is considered to have a FR of 4 and Obi is considered to have a FR of 6. Rey vs Kylo in their first fight it is noted by snoke that she only won because kylo was "unbalanced" by killing his father, thus affecting his ability to use the force that shouldnt affect combat ability, but it does implying further that combat ability and force power goes hand in hand in the movie verse. Equality of saber combat in the movies largely implies some form of equality with the force. It may not be direct 1 to 1 like Yoda and Palp are considered "equals" within force rating, but Yoda wins the saber duel while losing the force duel, but to match up equally or to be the opponents mirror in a regard is to imply equality in overall force strength even if talents are slightly different to be a mirror would imply mirror levels of power in the force. Edit: an example in this game, one of the only abilities unique to Form V in this RPG is Disruptive strike which has you rolling the force die, if they were not both rolling the same number of force die then they could not be equals in this form, thus they must both be rolling the same number of force die for Luke to be mirroring his father.
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