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tunewalker

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  1. I have yet to use canon characters or even Canon PLANETS in my games. My players have enjoyed it pretty well so far, Canon creatures, alien species and ships exist all over the place and the themes of Rebels vs Empire are still intact but keeping it away from canon allows me and my players to still FEEL like all of this could be canon happening off screen in unknown parts of the galaxy. However, given the level of notoriety my players are getting and the level of XP they are getting I am beginning to think about going ahead and letting them see a couple of known characters. I dont expect it to be any more than small cameo's to make it work similar (luke, Han and Leia are likely to stay out of it entirely). I am even thinking of throwing Vader in there with his procession as a one off thing if and when they get the attention of and kill an inquisitor.
  2. Just adding one more thing about the auto fire/ whirlwind ability. In the case of minions it can actually hit multiple minion GROUPS. So it would be the equivalent as others have put it of the action hero mowing down multiple groups of enemies with just one spray of his machine gun. But ya minions are easily dispatched, a combat check is any number of attacks, and autofire just allows that number of attacks to increase so substantially that the weapon can deal it's damage multiple times over. A big bad getting hit with a standard rifle will do something like 10 damage and he may take a crit as you blow a shot through his leg, but he gets behind cover pulls out a medpac and patches himself up in the middle of combat with some gaus real quick and is back to the fight injured and limping but still fine, while you successfully manage to hit that same guy with a machine gun and the autofire he just took double or even triple the damage and that fight is over. In the case of minions you have a hand gun and you take down 1 or 2 minions in one group while another group of bodyguard are starting to around and reinforce them forcing you to use cover. While the guy with the machine gun takes out a full 2 groups spraying bullets across 6 guys.
  3. You also have to remember what they knew at this point. They sent Obi-wan to figure out who was trying to assassinate a Senator of the republic and in doing so found out that the leader of a group of political idealists (dooku) was actually behind the assassination attempts and was planning a cue. The next thing they know Obi-wan is getting captured, the Senate is voting the chancelor emergency powers to authorize the usage of a clone army and it is on them to try to end a war before it begins. Remember that Yoda does not consider geonosis a victory and does not consider what happened there to be "according to plan".
  4. I think this is not bad, but I worry that it is a little high on the force rating and adversary rating since maul only has 4 and 3 respectively. Though this is probably actually perfect for a pre-clone wars game now that I think about it since FR and Adversary are both kind of relative to the story. Personally I would also lower the Move power from Sil 4 to Sil 2. and change sense to long, and maybe drop influence down to 3 rounds and 15 mins. Nobodies fool probably down to 2, since even highly skilled senators seem to have ranks around that level. Edit: that said thank you I will definitely use this with the alterations i mentioned for any game of that era I want to GM.
  5. Adding to my own thing from 2 pages ago. Yoda states "once you start down the dark path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny. CONSUME you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice." You do not need the characters to specifically state "you have to kill darth vader" for them to be understood that it is what they are telling luke to do. If you read between the lines and take the overall meaning of every scene it is made clear that Yoda and Obi believe Vader beyond redemption. That is what makes Luke a legend, that is what makes his actions in RotJ so meaningful because while everyone told him to kill a unredeemable man he saw redemption for him and saved someone that was thought to be unsaveable.
  6. Ya it is, Yoda had no intention of telling Luke that Vader was his father. "unexpected this is, and unfortunate". He intended Luke to face Vader believing vader killed his father and his mentor. Obi-wan and Luke's conversation is straight "You cannot escape your destiny you must face darth vader again" Luke:" I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" Ben: "then the emperor has already one" which CLARIFIES for the audience that when they say "confront" they mean kill. If he wasn't meaning kill from the start he could have just told Luke "turn him back if you can, but you can't take killing off the list of solutions, if you do you will surely die" but he doesnt say that. Obi says confront, Luke says I can't kill and Obi goes well then I guess we are screwed. Neither him or Yoda intended to tell Luke the truth which means they never even had the thought to give the possibility of redemption of Vader to Luke. If they had intended the possibility of redeeming Vader they would not have purposefully kept Vader's true identity from Luke. They would have given some form of hope of redemption and they wouldnt have actively created a conflict between Luke and Vader by telling him Vader "betrayed and murdered" his father. The entire time before the quote I have above is Obi-wan justifying why Vader is not Anakin, and how Anakin is already dead and Vader is not even a man worth considering "He is more machine now than man, TWISTED and EVIL.". "your father was seduced by the dark side of the force. He ceased to be Anakin skywalker and became darth vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, From a certain point of view." Then Ben goes into talking about how good Anakin used to be to which Luke responds " There IS still good in him I felt it" to which Obi-wan responds with the quote about him being twisted and evil again arguing against Luke that there is any possibility at redemption. First he says the good man was DESTROYED and then when Luke argues that the good man is still in their somewhere Obi insists that he is more machine and twisted and evil not believing Luke's assessment of the situation. To which Luke argues "I cant do it ben" and then the quote I gave earlier plays out exactly as it states showing that Luke's FIRST "I cant do it" was talking about killing his father, and again clarifying for all of us what is going on. Obi-wan believes Luke's father is already been destroyed and that a twisted and evil man is all that remains, Luke is arguing that a good man still remains in him and Obi-wan insists that is not the case, Luke then stops arguing the point and simply says he cant kill his dad and Obi-wan basically says "well then we are screwed".
  7. I feel like that is stretching. You have to remember who the writers of these characters are. They aren't martial artist or shooting instructors they are movie makers making it for general audiences. Given that it is still pretty obvious that Yoda and Obi intended Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, heck from obi-wan's perspective Anakin was already dead and Vader was "more machine than man" so from Obi's perspective Vader wasn't even a person.
  8. Also just to make sure that Luke wasn't just misunderstanding.... Luke did say "I can't do it ben, I can't kill my own father" and Obi-wan's response is literally throwing up his hands a little and saying "then the emperor has already won". No room for confusion or misunderstanding what so ever. Obi-wan and Yoda both intend Luke to kill vader.
  9. I also think there is a note to a GM in the book that the actual fall should be roll played in a significant way. Like if you know your player is getting close to it, make the act that does it really tick. Also The whole using JUST Dark side pips to fall to the dark side and being a perfect angel otherwise is possible on paper, but not really practical in practice. Since you are Rolling a D10 after every session against your conflict you are rolling 5.5 on average and thus need to be generating on average 6 conflict a session for 40 sessions to fall from 50 to 30. To do this with ONLY dark side pips with an FR of 2 would cause you to also take 6 strain a session and likely flip on average of 3 destiny points a session just to do this. This also means a usage of at least 3 to 4 force powers a session and given the setting the base game takes place in that much Force Power usage would bring A LOT of unwanted attention. As far as the things on the list of 9.2 there are all kinds of things on that list that I know even players playing morally good characters will depending on the circumstances. Like turning a blind eye to cruelty to avoid getting in trouble with the empire. Lying for personal gain. Theft is very common if the players have joined the rebellion, they steal from the empire all the time yes it is mitigated a little because of this, but it is still conflict. Torture is one of those slippery slopes that an evil person can REALLY EASILY justify. Like an assassin is trying to kill a high level government official and the players catch him and he is not talking. The players need to know who hired him so they can take this bounty off the officials head.... torture sounds very reasonable to any evil player even coercion and threatening with violence sounds reasonable to most good players, and what do they do once they have that answer. Again for an evil darkside player the answer is simple we kill them (Murder 10+ Conflict), heck for most players I have played with that is the answer but the system would force them to try and talk to this person and get them to back off another way besides just murder. (also I love the fact that the system does that because it allows me to have more evil megalomaniac characters that order minions to do everything for them but are basically untouchable that need to be talked down).
  10. Defense is a very broad term. In defense of friends, self-defense, In defense of ideals, In defense of Republic. As long as the jedi isn't initiating the conflict it is fine. I think this falls squarely under "taking yoda's words to literally". Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, that is what Form V is born off of, and Form V is still a JEDI form, and it shows the philosophy of those that use the force offensively (note I say offensively instead of to attack, because they aren't really attacking as much as they are disabling a threat and in doing so defending those that can not defend themselves from said threat.)
  11. I wish I could hit thank you multiple times you are 100% right, and that would be the same with the hole and the like on Ach-too. Perfect, yes.
  12. Good to know I would like to know the source though for my personal benefit, also is there one saying Palpatine himself is a Dark Side nexus (I know Mortis is a Force nexus so I knew Force nexus's still existed) Finally I am going to table my rants on Vader vs Luke real quick and just ask 1 question of @infinityincarnate. Who do you think is stronger, Old Man Ben Kenobi from Episode IV or Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight from Episode VI.
  13. But this again ignores the context of the quote, the context of your own quote, and the history of the character. It is a leap to think lucas is referring to potential power rather than achieved power as Palpatine has not had a history of carrying solely about potential power, if he did he would have turned anakin much sooner not just when he finally surpassed dooku. Palpatine believes in testing potential power, and either the person lives up to their potential or doesnt. Given the context it does not appear to be referring to potential power. Actually you did ignore it, by not conceding a point you are ignoring the point, in addition I brought it up 2 whole quotes back and you addressed none of it then and instead continued to use it to try and support your flimsy argument. Live up to your mistakes man, you were the one that brought it up, then ignored it's non-canon nature the first time it was brought up and then when I tore the argument apart a second time you ignored it completely instead of owning your mistake. Yes you did again, you are continually stating how vader holds back, which is NULL AND VOID at the times Luke is Holding back as they are both on even footing in those moments. Even in the moments when Luke ISNT going all out and is also holding back he holds the advantage and is able to do as he pleases disengaging when ever he feels like. You are correct, he does go all out on a occasion, but unfortunately for you I am not always referring to those moments and Luke is still holding the advantage. So yes you are ignoring this fact. Finally stop cherry picking please, you are cherry picking the quote the full quote is here. " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons." This statement shows you are still ignoring that fact, and still ignoring the context, which I will get more into in a bit. Yes you did ignore that fact, and by this quote are still ignoring that fact, as there is nothing those statements is contradicting. They WERE the canon, that is the point, at the time while Lucas was apart of Lucasfilm they were the facts. Now that Lucas is NO LONGER part of Lucasfilm neither Lucas NOR they are the facts. That is what you are ignoring and continuing to ignore. You are correct it does not change who lucas has said was more powerful, because he has said Luke was more powerful as of 6, based on what we see in the movies, and based on the quote provided, lucas has never made a hard distinction between potential and achieved. Your view point does not match Lucas's it matches what Lucas believes the viewpoint of kids talking to psychiatrists believe. Context is king. The quote about the emperor wanting Luke is in direct reference to episode 6, while the quote you are using is in direct reference to the view point of young children who need help from psychologists, it is what lucas believes the children see not what author intent actually is. Referencing back to the full quote " The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons." How does the emperor think Luke is going to kill vader 1v1 if he doesnt think Luke is stronger? What would lead palpatine to believe Luke is a better apprentice if he wasnt stronger than vader? And once again the end thing refers to the mirror system once again which is supported by star wars database, which is run by CURRENT Lucasfilm which is not tied to nor does it answer to nor does lucas have anything to do with. Current Lucasfilm is not beholden to Lucas's word, old or new. So if you want to use Lucas word, you would need to allow OLD Lucasfilm canon which brings Insider 62, Fact file 111 and RotJ book back into it. Even if you don't you are cherry picking Lucas's quotes and ignoring context, and say it with me.... context is king. Context tells you the FULL story. In the case of your quote the context is in reference to the view point of children viewing all of the movies and in nearly all of them Luke is mostly incompetent and needs to be rescued multiple times of course the kids are going to view vader as powerful and luke as not because Luke is the underdog story until the very end, and even when he finally wins Palpatine is just there to show him that he STILL isn't top dog that is definitely NOT a power fantasy, while from the viewpoint of the kid vader only loses ONCE (heck even when he does lose he still is the one to save Luke and kill palpatine in the end, he dies for it but heroic sacrifices endures a character more instead of detracting from them) and other than that one time he is the master of all other situations, he is a power fantasy, he is the obstacle to overcome, but that is the FEELING the saga gives off not the context for the final fight and not truly relevant to the argument you are trying to use it for. While my quote is referencing VI specifically and the FULL quote does not make sense to be solely referencing Luke's potential because otherwise the emperor would not believe luke could kill vader nor that luke would be a Better apprentice, this is not based on feelings of a child or the assumed feelings of a child but the actual mechanical facts of the scene in question. This quote, this FULL quote was lucas's view point on Luke vs Vader in Episode VI, this FULL quote was the author intent, yours was simply his assumption on how kids viewed the characters on the whole from the whole series and has 0 to do with how things land in the end. Lucas 's view point on Luke vs Vader IN VI, is Luke is strong enough to kill vader, is a better apprentice and has greater potential, all BECAUSE Vader is "more machine now than man". But the reason Lucas gives for the fact doesnt change the fact.
  14. You ignored the other lucas quote that contradicted the quote you made. You also just ignored the fact that Dark side nexuses dont exist. You also ignored the fact that Luke is holding back just like Vader is. You also failed to provide any evidence for said dark nexus or your claim that Vader wasnt using it. You also ignored the fact that the list you gave of "what is canon" from Lucasfilm is not Lucas's list but disneys list and Lucas wasnt listed as part of that list so if you want to get that technical with it neither of our quotes from lucas work anyway, which I then refer you back to the post that has the fight, the talk about the mirror thing and you are once again down to 0 sources. You also ignored the fact that your quote is referring to Vader during the entire trilogy and not episode 6 and since Vader is more powerful in 5/6ths of the movie is true... from a certain point of view that also has nothing to do with what I am talking about. You also ignored the fact that my quote IS specifically talking about episode 6. You also ignored the fact during Lucas's time the sources I linked were considered evidence and canon so if we want to include lucas quotes we include those as well. You also failed to provide any proof that you dont mind sometimes being wrong as you have yet to be ok with it during any discussion on these forums at any point in time. Edit: I think this is how I am going to handle arguments in the future, everytime a point is made that someone ignores or a piece of evidence is stated without actual back up I am just going to bring it up so the person knows. So they can go back to addressing each of these points, because i am tired of repeating myself. This way at least when I repeat myself it will be obvious. Edit 2: Am I allowed to laugh a little that the quote is really Lucas's interpretation as to why kids like vader, and has more to do with how he believes kids view vader THROUGHOUT the trilogy then it has to do with the intended difference between Luke and vader in the last fight of the last movie.... Context.... king. Seriously, the quote about why emperor wants Luke and saying Luke is stronger is an answer to the specific question about Luke vs Vader in episode VI in universe, while the quote that states Vader > Luke is from the perspective of what he believes little kids see and has nothing to do with the actual intent of the movies or the scenes..
  15. Quotes from the OT dvd commentary" The Emporer wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice…….There are alot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."George Lucas As far a the dark side nexus that does not help your case. First that is non-canon now. Second Vader and Dooku are both Dark Siders, which means they draw on the dark. And Third Luke is not drawing on the dark side the entire time and still holds the advantage when he is just using the light... at a dark side nexus... where he would be weaker and his opponent would be stronger... yet still winning while holding back... by definition Luke would have to be way stronger... but again you will only believe a mountain of evidence so I will keep digging and dropping it on you. Found something relevant Lucas admits that he doesn't know everything there is to know about his own lucas, and that's what licensing is there for. But he is too busy to be able to do that with all the licensing material. But they are still part of the "Star Wars Universe". Right here it states that ACCORDING TO LUCAS we should follow the licensed stuff... ya I guess my official guide crap is back and you're wrong again. You also have to remember the context of YOUR OWN quote in which he is talking about the saga as a whole, and Luke is weaker than vader in all but 1 movie. Context is king. I don't like doing personal attacks, but when I spend an hour + digging up information, typing it up and then someone just chucks it out the window cus "lawls none of that counts" even though it is all official sources I cant do anything but treat that person like an idiot. You originally did not provide your quote or it's source you just said well this exists and I was supposed to take your word for it while I am providing fricken page numbers, scans and direct quotes with sources to back them up as well as the name of these sources and as far as I can tell you are pulling stuff from your butt and calling it gold. Now you have brought an Actual quote, actual evidence and to counter it we know that lucas goes back and forth on things all the time I got a quote that supports Luke being stronger, and there is a quote that states ACCORDING TO LUCAS... the source book stuff you want to ignore is canon material. So that puts 4 sources to 1. Again, putting us back to square 1. Luke and vader were at least equals. Edit: please remember to keep legends out of canon discussions. Things like Dark Side nexuses and the like don't exist. Palpatine is only there to edge them on, not to amp them, the amp thing never made any sense anyway because he would actually be amping his current apprentice at the start and weakening the one he wants and putting them on EVEN footing at the end. Also want to note Lucas isn't in charge any more and as you said the Data base is part of canon, and backed by the other things I said it is evidence that Luke is to Vader as Anakin was to dooku and in Episode III Anakin> dooku.
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