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Everything posted by Tlfj200

  1. The most interesting part was going from hating vultures to loving fat turrets. Weirdest flex of the the thread.
  2. This is fundamentally true for all swarms, not just vultures. Did the 8th ship break the bank, even though it's weak? What about the 7th? What's the marginal ship? Like, the same general concept is true against the TIE swarm.
  3. The secret is, that's why most people's games go to time, and it doesn't mean there's a mystery who won the game. Many games devolve to a point where neither list can reasonably/feasibly do much damage to each other, but there's time left on the clock. Other than being trapped in that game, that's "okay".
  4. but that swarm might shoot one of your ships! It's Outrageous! It's Unfair!
  5. I mean, Okay. I see this fear perpetuated a lot. It might even be real. Call a judge if your opponent is slow playing you, but otherwise, you shouldn't be getting in 5 turns. If it's a newer player, or a player newer to the list on a casual night, you can still prod them that they need to pick up the pace - swarms are not an excuse to slow play people.
  6. We're not mentioning sear because you argued for an increase in vultures, not sear. I think you'll find many of us suspect sear is a problem (I mean "sear" to be the "sear suite" - the combination of sear + TA175 + soulless one). That suite is very very likely underpriced, as is chertek. That's not the same as being mad at vultures though.
  7. I mean, probably? Obi has a lot of agency on being at R2 in front of a vulture swarm though, with them fine-tuned controls... Like, this goes back to the philosophy of swarms - the idea that anyone can/should be able to entire just "arc dodge" an entire swarm seems odd. Generally speaking, the swarm *will* find a ship - they brought a lot of arcs. They probably *will* hurt one of the opposing ships. That does not guarantee success. It's the entire philosophy of all swarms, not just vulture swarms. As a matter of fact, sinker swarms are actually better than vulture swarms as jousters, and joust vultures under the table... but basically no one plays them. Likewise, Obi can't sit in front of a sinker swarm. Obi shouldn't sit in front of a Howl swarm, either. He has ~33% chance to die there. Is the 33% chance more palatable or "earned" for some reason? http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=AgIAAAAAAAAA&a1=AQMAAA&a2=AQMAAA&a3=AQMAAA&a4=AQMAAA&a5=AQMAAA&a6=AwMAAA
  8. I... guess? what conditions does that represent, I guess?
  9. The damage from three 3-die focused attacks against a vulture at R2 is higher than a TIE with just a focus at R2: Vulture - expected = 3.223 (66.7% chance to die) http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=AhgAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA TIE - expected = 2.602 (50.4% chance to die) http://xwing.gateofstorms.net/2/multi_preset/?d=gwAAAAAAAAAA&a1=AgMAAA&a2=AgMAAA&a3=AgMAAA The damage would actually be higher on the vulture, because in actuality, the vulture can ever double calculate exactly once (network + itself), then can only ever calculate once then after (just network), but the calculator isn't built to represent that, so I just gave the vulture 6 calculates.
  10. Pause - one second. The position is simply "8 ships shouldn't have upgrades" as a broad statement? Just... because? What, philosophically, regardless of chassis or upgrades? Let's evaluate this list: Vultures are the bare minimum ship in the game, arguably under TIEs. TA-175's usefulness is diminished against lists with same-initiative spam, and literally useless against ships of the same initiative as your own. Sear would be a 5 hp ship with 2 agility, a single focus, at i2, and no other mods, and the rest of your ships wouldn't shoot until i1, so if anyone kills sear before i1, TA-175 is further relegated to uselessness. I just want to walk through the logical extension of points proposals, because I suspect people just lash out with feelings, and don't think through what the resulting effects are.
  11. *** Losing 2 discord missiles is literally two-thirds of all discord missiles in the list. That seems pretty relevant, as they're the only upgrades in the list other than struts and chertek-related stuff.
  12. An unironic feature of MOV not mattering to make cuts/prizes.
  13. Vulture Swarms: A Manifesto On Going to Time There has been a lot of talk that vulture swarms “take too long” or “drag the game out”. I feel that treats vulture swarms as somehow more special than other swarms. I’m here to tell you that, to the extent this is true, it is true for all swarms. As a general tactic, you cannot waste much time getting the “perfect” position or engage on a swarm. Chances are, you will start “down” on points against a swarm (of any kind) due to their jousting ability, and thus you want the initial engage to happen as swiftly as possible. That is not to say you want to take a bad joust (or a straight joust of any kind), but you likely need to realize that the swarm can, and will, find one of your ships, and shoot it. The constant fear of being shot/losing a ship is just causing you to lose the game and feel bad. This isn’t unique to vulture swarms, even if they’re currently the “top dog” of swarms. TIE swarm - Better not dawdle - you’re likely going to be down after initial engage “wasting time” punching through the Iden charge. Sinker Swarm - that’s an awful lot of health… better not spend a ton of time toilet bowling, and they’ll probably hurt a ship real bad on initial engage. Torkil Swarm - only 5 ships this time, but chances are they’ll find something and shoot it… and that ship will likely be initiative zero. Barrage Bombers - was there only 5? Does it matter? Does all of this feelsbad? Yep. Is any of this unbeatable? Nope. Is any of thise NPE? I mean, honestly, maybe, but it’s actually a core philosophy of swarms, guys. Like, if swarms exist, and are even marginally competitive (man, even if they aren’t really competitive), this is basically a core design of what they’ll do. Vultures are not doing anything special here. *This is not to say, or claim, that vultures are fine from a points perspective, but rather to note that as long as a swarm exists, the above will exist. Perhaps vultures could, or should, be more expensive, but let's not pretend that will change how they play. What Makes Vultures Different - Network Calculations and Struts Network Calculations So, one of the things that makes vultures unique is their ability to share their calculate tokens (i.e. force tokens) among each other within range 1. Basically, passive mods. This is, in theory, to make up for the weak chassis. I hear the complaint that this makes this 2.0 glitterstim, which I guess is sort of right? However, there’s some inherent weaknesses to this. First, you can drain the calculates. Further, every calculate spent on defense is not spent on offense. Second (really first) - they have 2 dice and can blank. Worth stressing, because they don’t have the health to absorb variance. Third - the first two have been playing into a current meta trend for awhile now: low ship count, which means low numbers of shots. If you don’t put many shots into a vulture, then the value of the volume of networked calculations it has just went up. A lot. It now functionally does have infinite force… but that’s a matchup/meta issue. There are many matchups those vultures do not have “infinite” calculates, I assure you. Grappling Struts So, people really love/hate this thing. “iT iGnOrEs A fUnDaMeNtAl pArT oF xWiNg!” Spoiler - Yeah, so do all of those gas clouds TIE/sinker swarms bring. Don’t get me wrong - struts are great! They do some really cool/weird stuff. But let’s not pretend that the “ignoring the obstacles part” is the main attraction, or even the unique part, because half of all lists are functionally doing that right now. That said, I have some complaints. I think struts should cost zero points… but that the vulture chassis should go up proportionally, so that vultures always have struts. This just partly because I think struts are cool, but also partly because of other reasons: First, one of the problems on the board, as an opponent, is tracking which vultures have struts, and which don’t. This is overly confusing, and it’s unfortunate. Not everyone will be Paul or I with multi-colored vultures and/or specific rings denoting who-is-who. No one should ever lose track of the game state, *especially* when it’s “who can now jump onto rocks for free again??* Second, and this is more subtle, because struts cost points, you’re seeing a lot of min/maxing by lists selectively adding and dropping them. By just building the cost of struts into the chassis, a whole of swarms accidentally just get more expensive because they can’t randomly drop struts off a few vultures to squeeze in a few more upgrades, and those upgrades matter (and sometimes, they matter a lot). Combined with possible points increases on those upgrades (or pilots like chertek/sear), you could conceivably make swarms less efficient and cool.
  14. Worth quoting for emphasis. Games going to time are not inherently the problem. People feeling the games aren't resolved are. I've had lots of games go to time where the winner was functionally decided several turns ago, but one player felt they couldn't concede because of points, and the other didn't feel they could close out (either due to risks, or simply lack of firepower). Doesn't mean the game wasn't decided, just that time was technically called.
  15. So, again I'm hearing "Vultures are the problem" Combined with "look at what TA175 + sear do!" and "Nantexes/Chertek does insane stuff!" Are the both true, because the descriptions people focus on are the latter, which would mean the sear suite and/or chertek is the enabler, not the vultures, but everyone keeps honing in on the vultures. No one asked Paul if he'd play the list wthout chertek or sear, right? If the vultures are so amazing, just plug a dank hyena in there and it'll also be amazing, amirite?
  16. Sounds suspiciously like not braylen or cassian
  17. I mean, any time you have to make the qualifier: "He's not very good if I have a second highly modded shot on him" and he's only 30 points, and if left unmitigated he's a more accurate 3-die focus attack... that still seems really good, to me. I'm still going to take those whispers, and vaders, etc, and play other factions. But if someone forces me to play resistance, it's 5A, or it'll start with Finn.
  18. Sure... but then you're basically saying "Don't play the resistance faction", which is a perfectly okay (edit: possibly even reasonable) position to take. But we're saying if you do play resistance, skipping ultra efficient finn seems like a mistake (skipping rose also probably a mistake, based on list build). But like, *Just* vader shooting Finn? I'm super in. BOTH vader AND whisper taking the time to shoot 30 point finn in a turn, while the rest of the list shoots back? Also, super in. (Maybe empire still heavily still favored under the "don't play resistance' mantra, but empire can't possibly feel good about that exhange, even if they win it).
  19. He melts to the SECOND of those, IF they can afford to spend all of their mods (no further incoming shots), AND if he didn't use his ability on the first shot (meaning the first shot could afford to use all of their mods or nattied). And he cost 30. Go ahead? Ditto.
  20. Sorry - that may sound dismissive, and it's not meant to be. It's meant to sound emphatic. I think, for 30 points in the resistance faction, heroic finn is a steal based on the low ship count meta, and that many swarms are 2 die swarms.
  21. Yes, and it's not remotely close. Yes, I have.
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